how adventure therapy can offer young adults life-long tools for mental health & resilience, with Andrew Taylor
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Guest: Andrew Taylor, Founder of Pure Life Adventure Therapy
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about this episode:
When your son or daughter has been struggling with mental health or misusing substances for any period of time, it can be hard to recall who they are without the external influence of those substances, screens, or social media. Let alone remember who they are when they get consistent sleep, good nutrition, and regular outdoor exercise. A benefit of residential therapeutic environments is they help re-discover your son or daughter’s behavioral and mental health baseline and identify what resources will impact lasting change most.
In this episode, I’m talking with the founder of Pure Life Adventure Therapy, Andrew Taylor. He shares how Adventure Therapy differs from Wilderness Therapy and specifically supports young adults experiencing isolation, anxiety, and depression. While it’s not designed to support young people in active addiction or those who are newly sober, it’s a powerful combination of nature, fun, and deep therapy. It’s a way for young adults to learn first-hand how to develop resilience for the challenges of everyday life.
episode resources:
Your Brain on Nature (book)
The Nature Fix: Why Nature Makes Us Happier, Healthier, and More Creative (book)
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A few weeks ago, I attended a conference where I met the owners and therapists from treatment programs for young adults, meaning people who are 18 or older, and usually between 18 and 25 ish.
[00:01:35] I learned so much and I also got to connect and reconnect with a lot of people in the field of adolescent and young adult mental health and substance use. I will tell you what these are some of the coolest and most dedicated people out there, and they work with a really tough population, are kids who have the choice to get help or not to get help.
[00:01:58] And so they have to know how to offer programs that young people are willing to go to and stay at. And they also have to know how to talk and interact with young people in a way that builds trust and connection in a really short amount of. . So in the coming months, you're going to hear from some of these folks because I have found that they have insights and information that we can glean about our kids, about the things that they do and that they learn while they're in treatment and even ways that we can learn to talk with them so that they're more open to considering treatment.
[00:02:32] Today you are gonna hear from one of those people. Andrew Taylor, the founder of Peer Life Adventure and Octagon Mentoring. He grew up in the outdoors and spent his college summers as a river guide on the upper Colorado River. He graduated from the University of Utah with a degree in organizational communication, and then went to Costa Rica in search of whitewater rafting.
[00:02:57] while he was there, he fell in love with the Costa Rican people and all of the adventure activities that happened there. He's been running adventure trips in Costa Rica since 2004. You'll hear today how he figured out how to take that love of Costa Rica outdoor adventures and therapy, and combine them together to help young people.
[00:03:20] And you're also going to hear how an international adventure experience can be a good idea for a young person who's. Having challenges with mental health and even some substance use, which I had a lot of questions about. As you can imagine, we also hear what Andrew and his team are seeing in young adults as a result of Covid and a lot more.
[00:03:43] It's a wide ranging conversation that you'll wanna hear, so I will let you do just that. I know you're gonna get some great nuggets and takeaways from this conversation with Andrew Taylor, and I'll see you on the other side. Andrew, I'm so excited to talk to you today. Uh, we had the good fortune of getting to hang out, um, a couple weeks ago at a conference, and so that sparked this idea to have you on cause there's a lot of things we can talk about.
[00:04:10] Um, but welcome to Hope Stream. Can't believe I haven't had you on yet. This a little surprising, so I'm glad you.
[00:04:18] Andrew: Yeah, I've been waiting. It's about time. .
[00:04:21] Brenda: You've over been over there tapping your fingers once it can happen,
[00:04:25] Andrew: waiting for my call.
[00:04:26] Brenda: Waiting for the call. Well now we're doing it. We're finally doing it.
[00:04:29] So we have a lot of stuff to dive into, but I would love for you to just share with people who are listening, a little background on who you are and how you came to be doing what you're doing today. Cause I think it's really unique and cool and would love to share that before we get into all the other.
[00:04:46] Andrew: Yeah. Cool. So I grew up in the outdoors, in Utah, in the mountain skiing and hiking and camping. And it kinda lit a passion for me. And in college, I, I applied to be River Guide, so I worked as a river guide for two summers. Loved that, that took me to, I then applied for a job working at Outward Bound in Costa R.
[00:05:08] and loved that every step into that sort of arena just kept lighting a fire for me. And that evolved into an adventure travel company where I was just doing like adventure trips for families and that that evolved into adventure therapy. , and I think at every step in that journey, the common thread was every time I was, you know, as a river guide or at Outward Bound or running my own trips in my own company, I just saw the impact of adventure and outdoors on families and people in general, and youth and myself.
[00:05:42] Just the positive influence that it had in terms of life changing stuff. and that's when, you know, I kind of realized there were people, you know, applying therapy to this, you know, beautiful, uh, experience that, you know, for me I was like, yeah, that's it. That's what I was born to do. Um, and I feel like that's kind of been my call.
[00:06:05] And so I founded Pure Life Adventure 10 years ago, almost 10 years. and we work with young adults with depression and anxiety and all, all that comes with it, um, and surrounds it and, um, provide them therapy and take 'em surfing and, you know, show them some really positive coping mechanisms. And, um, and that evolved, has evolved into a coaching and mentoring, um, practice I have as well called Octagon mentoring and.
[00:06:36] Wow.
[00:06:37] Brenda: So I am trying to imagine how do you go from, you're leading your own adventures and then you just go, oh, I'm gonna just do therapy. Like how did that that, that seems like a big transition. How did that come about? I mean, you said like you, that you saw the transformation that was happening with people.
[00:06:55] Um, but I think a lot of people would've just been like, oh, well this is a really cool gig. I'm gonna do this. And, but not taking it to that next level. So what made you kind of go that next?
[00:07:06] Andrew: Being from Utah, there are, you know, it's kind of where wilderness therapy started. So I just started asking around, okay.
[00:07:14] And talking to people and connected with some professionals that had a lot of experience and knew. Knew the therapy part. I knew Costa Rica really well. I knew logistics and risk management. and I, I had the passion for the human side of it, the deeper side, although I was not a therapist, um, I did get, you know, my substance abuse counseling certificate, um, did not get licensed, so I can't claim it anymore.
[00:07:40] but I got educated and did it, had experience doing it. I can, I'm a little bitter about that, that, that I can't claim it anymore. But, but I have the background and so. Did you know some with, you know, some rehab and addiction centers as I was gaining experience and then partnered with a really solid group of people that brought that therapeutic part into the partnership.
[00:08:03] Brenda: Very cool. That's awesome. I think it's really cool when you can combine two passions like that. , you know, your love of the travel and the adventure and Costa Rica and all that, and then adding the therapeutic lens to it, um, is really cool. So what is, I would just love to know the difference because I think a lot of people know wilderness therapy, right?
[00:08:24] And when we think of wilderness therapy, we're like, okay, the, you know, these young people are out in the woods in Utah or Arizona or wherever, and they're camping with a big backpack and they're sleeping under a tarp. What is different about adventure therapy and wilderness therapy, or are they different?
[00:08:43] Andrew: Depends on who you ask, who does. But in general, what I, what I would say is, will, you know, there are, there are a few different approaches or modalities. Wilderness therapy as it began is just that wilderness, I mean, They're out in the wilderness. You're not seeing a building, you're not seeing a car, you're not seeing anything.
[00:09:04] You're out. And it's, it's whatever time you're there, you are immersed in nature removed from everything society really. Um, you know, which is cool. I, I think super cool. Right? And, and there's a certain group that that fits adventure therapy because you're doing adventure, activit. , usually you've gotta be what you call more front country.
[00:09:29] Uh, front country. Meaning you might be in a national park, you might be around, you know, you might be in public and mm-hmm. You know, like our surf camp is on, is in a national park. It's right. You know, like they're not isolated from society. . And what that means is, is because we're doing mental health treatment, they have to have a certain level of, uh, stability and investment, right?
[00:09:56] They can't be. , you know, really behavioral for example, and, and because we are going into environments where we're saying, Hey, you know, you kind of gotta wanna be here and you kind of gotta want to, you know, do some work and have some insight on that for yourself because yeah, I mean, if you want to go walk down the street and grab a beer, especially for a young adult, That, that will be a possibility, you know, for someone that is maybe trying to get away from alcohol.
[00:10:23] And so, you know, it, it allows us to, to use adventure as, as a process for connecting the therapeutic dots. So, so that's like, I kind of went through like, like formal stuff. I think in terms of philosophy, what we're doing is adventure therapy is. Putting young people in challenging and maybe even uncomfortable situations where they have to tap into a part of themselves they haven't or they haven't been tapping into.
[00:10:58] And what I'll tell a family on the phone is, Monday, Tuesday, we're at a base camp. We, that's where the therapists do the individual and group work. Our field staff are part of that. The field staff are in the, you know, on the adventures the rest of the week, but it's, it's when they're surfing or backpacking or camping under a tarp, depending on our itinerary, that that's where the magic happens.
[00:11:21] That's where they connect the dots, and that's where they have the. , you know, awareness and, and they also have their struggles and we're there to support them through their struggles. That's where they get triggered. That's where, you know, the work gets done. And so for somebody who's doing adventure therapy, they've most often done as much talking on the couch as they can do with without getting any progress.
[00:11:47] We're all about, let's. and then let's go do, let's move our bodies. And, you know, I could geek out if you let me, and I'm gonna try and make my answers short on this podcast interview, but there's so much science and such Cool, you know, um, science and research going into the fact that people, um, being in the outdoors calms our nervous system, helps our endorphins, helps our serotonin, like sights, the sounds, the smells, all of it is calm.
[00:12:18] for the nervous system. And so, you know, there's, there's an added element of that. And one more thing, and then I'll let you ask the next question. , they're getting good sleep. Yes, they're getting good exercise. They're in the outdoors. They're taking their meds on time if they take meds. And every parent out there who's listening knows that their kid's probably not taking their meds on time or free or so, so we have all these question marks of like, why are they depressed and all these things, and we're able to get a real baseline on.
[00:12:46] Eating healthy, getting exercise off their phones, taking their meds, and with just that, we can get a baseline and then we can get a real sense for what are we working with because there's so many aspects of mental health that come together.
[00:12:59] Brenda: Yes. Well, I would love to geek out on, on the science of it because I think it can feel just coming from the parent's point of view, having been in the position where I've had to make some of these decisions about where am I gonna have my son go to treatment.
[00:13:15] It's really confusing and. , I don't know that we know that science. I don't know that we know there's actually data that shows whatever, you know what, like what you were just talking about with serotonin and all the endorphins are going through their system and finding that baseline I think is really important.
[00:13:34] So, um, I think those are really good. And maybe you could advise what kinds of questions should a parent be asking because just totally. Frankly, I would think I'm not sending my kid to another country on an airplane to hang out and go surfing. Like that just seems a, seems really risky for, you know, a kiddo who's not potentially not the most stable.
[00:14:04] Sounds really fun and I think. . Honestly, it can be hard as a parent to be like, yeah, I'm gonna go send my kid to have a lot of fun. They've made my life living hell for the last three years. , right? Like, mm-hmm. . So I think there's a lot of, um, questions that we have about that. Like, is this the right thing to do?
[00:14:20] What do you, what's your stance on that? Cause I know you're, you're on the other end of it. I think it'd be really interesting to hear some of the, some of that science, but then also just from what you see happening as those kids are with you.
[00:14:35] Andrew: great questions and I, I would refer people to a book and I'm going to.
[00:14:41] botch it. It's either nature on the brain or your brain on nature. And you know, it, it, it goes into the, the sites of it all. So much so that there's a hospital where people who have had the same surgery, let's call it a pen, you know, uh, appendectomy. Mm-hmm. , one side of the hospital, recovery floor faces a park.
[00:15:01] The other faces a parking lot. And the people like years and years of data. The people on the park side that seek trees. and, you know, nature, um, consistently check out sooner. Wow. Stuff like that. Like, wow, like there's, there's a lot of that. So I'll leave it at that. But that book is what I would recommend for anybody who really wants to understand it better, I think.
[00:15:24] I think our field doesn't do a good enough job of pointing out that just nature alone. is going to be healing and therapeutic. We all anecdotally know like, Hey, we like being outdoors. We like, you know, most people, you know, and I feel better after walking the park, but there's a lot of data and science and stuff you can look at to say, wow, this is pretty impactful.
[00:15:46] Um, Costa Rica, who would send their kid to Costa Rica, right? I, I wanna go to
[00:15:52] Brenda: Costa Rica, I wanna go and go surfing.
[00:15:56] Andrew: Right. Well, and I think. . One answer to that is, you know, we work really hard to to work with the right client who's stable. So let me just say if someone's op super oppositionally defiant, or even a little, if someone's really behavioral, showing a lot of aggressive behaviors or addictive addiction, we don't deal with addiction in Costa Rica, right?
[00:16:19] We really bet for a high level of stability to come to our program. So what that means is our typical client. . Pretty nice, pretty sweet young person that is depressed, anxious, A D H D, executive functioning, sad, lonely, smoking, too much pot. You know, that's the level of substance use maybe has dabbled in some of that harder stuff, but they're not an addict, they're not resistant.
[00:16:48] And, and so that's, that's who's getting on the plane to come to Costa Rica. If someone gets on the phone with me and they're like, they're highly addict. , you know, they disappear for days at a time. You know, that's a whole different level of, of crisis that we're gonna say, do please do not send your son or daughter to Costa Rica please.
[00:17:07] Right. You know, and I would say we work really hard at at that because sometimes people will call us and be like, well, they want to go to Costa Rica. Be like, I get that. But this is a safety issue for your family, your son or daughter. We're not, we're not okay taking someone that's not appropriate for our program, even if they want to come.
[00:17:24] Right, right. Um, the second part of your question was, my kids being a pain in the butt. Why am I going to send them surfing in Costa Rica? Interestingly enough, I got that question a lot, seven, eight years ago, and I'd be so interested in the perspective of your listeners right now. I wish they. . You know, I know
[00:17:50] Brenda: I always, I always wish it was two ways ,
[00:17:52] Andrew: right?
[00:17:52] If they could give input on this. But in the last two, three years, parents are calling me saying, I don't want this to be punitive. I don't want it to be hard. Not that it was punitive before. Now they're saying, I don't want to punish my depressed. a 20 year old. Mm-hmm. , I, I want them to feel happier and I think philosophically, you know, for pure life and in Costa Rica, because we're taking a more stable client.
[00:18:15] You know, my, my response is, is just cuz they're depressed and all that comes with that, not doing their stuff, that's not an ex excuse, not excusing it, but like, yeah, with depression, anxiety, adhd, you know, executive functioning issues and all the things that come with it. They're not doing what they need to do.
[00:18:34] and yeah, it can sound like, Hey, are we going to reward them by, you know, taking them surfing or whatever that may be? And the answer is, it's not a reward. But yes, we are going to have fun in a very healthy way because they don't know that they can have fun healthily for a lot of them. They don't think they can have fun without their Xbox, right?
[00:18:55] They don't think they can have fun without their phone. They don't think they can have fun without weed. and if we can have fun while we're doing hard gritty work at the same time and pushing them and challenging them, and in introducing them to discomfort and we can have fun along the way, we're gonna give them a whole new life skill that they can have the rest of their lives right of.
[00:19:19] man. When I was surfing, I felt great. When I was hiking, I felt great. When I was doing these things, I felt amazing. I felt accomplished, I felt good, and I had a lot of fun. Yeah, and, and so the way I tell families now is that we don't apo we have a lot of fun. We don't apologize for it because just cuz someone's depressed or anxious doesn't mean, you know, they need to be, not have fun to get better.
[00:19:43] There's other programs that are more appropriate for. for the like, Hey, yeah, your son or daughter's not getting it and they're not ready for this, you know, this level of program.
[00:19:54] Brenda: Right. So it sounds like then it may be for that kid who's more into the substance use or more serious, maybe suicidal ideation or something like that, they would need to go somewhere else first.
[00:20:06] Get into a more stable place, and then would, would something like an adventure therapy program be a next step for that? after they've been to something else? Or how, how do you kind of determine like, they're not good for us right now, but they could be down the road?
[00:20:26] Andrew: Yeah, so I, I think adventure therapy programs in the States would be more willing to take harder behaviors because they're in the states.
[00:20:33] So I'm speaking to the Costa Rica aspect, right. Um, to your point, you know, um, There are programs that'll take heavier substance use in the states that practice adventure therapy. We get a lot of clients with suicidal ideation, you know, and so we do get clients that maybe were hospitalized a few months ago, or maybe even sometimes a week ago, but they're stable, not just like, Hey, they were really bad then.
[00:21:00] They're stable now. But like there was some stability. They had a rough. hospitalizations, questionable. They're stable. We'll look at that and we'll be open-minded to, Hey, is this, is this, uh, a level of stability we're comfortable with? So I would say a lot of the suicidal ideation comes into our program.
[00:21:18] Um, what I'm looking for is do they have insight and can they name it and can they say, yeah, I'm, I'm struggling with that. And can we trust? , their level of reporting. Um, that's part of the stability that we're kind of looking for in addiction cases. Yeah. We've had clients that go get sober and then come to pure life.
[00:21:36] Hmm. For sure. You know, we want to see that they're, that they're motivated to be sober, albeit a little bit Right. You know, drug seeking really. , and I think, you know what I mean, you know a lot about a lot of programs. There's programs for that, like drug seeking behavior where it's so, so for sure, so tight.
[00:21:54] We're gonna be staying in Costa Rica homes. You know, who's, and my thought is always first they're gonna be around, you know, they're gonna be guests in someone's home. Second, are they gonna find a bottle of rubbing alcohol? If the answer is they're gonna try, there's other programs, you know, if the answer is they would've tried four months ago, but not now.
[00:22:15] great. Let's go to coach. You know, come to pure life. And so that's kind of how I look at it.
[00:22:19] Brenda: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I was just wondering what the, kind of, what the, um, cycle would be if somebody's in a program now and they know coming out of it, not feeling like coming home is the best idea. Just wondering if that's an option for kids who have already been to one some other.
[00:22:39] Andrew: Program. Totally. Yeah, totally. That. And then oftentimes we're the primary placement as well. So one or the other. And sometimes I get families that are like, Hey, if they get stabilized here, can they come? It's like, great. Absolutely. You know? Yeah.
[00:22:52] Brenda: Got it. All right. So what, you know, for parents whose kids are struggling with mental health, and especially I would love to sort of get your thoughts about pre and post covid, but.
[00:23:05] there's kind of this i, this idea that I've read, that you've talked about before of acting out and acting in, and I would love to just get your thoughts on what should parents be looking for? Cause I think it's really confusing, especially if they're, um, younger, maybe in the like 12 to, you know, 16 age range.
[00:23:26] You're never really sure. Is this just normal teenage behavior? or is this something else? And then as they get older, it just gets really blurry, especially if you're not necessarily with them all the time. What, what is this kind of concept of acting out and acting
[00:23:43] Andrew: in? Yeah, great question. I think before Covid, I was getting a lot more calls that were like, Hey, they're out with their friends a lot.
[00:23:51] They, you know, they're. , they're not listening to us. They're, they're out and about and we kind of don't know where they are. And they're smoking too much weed and they're partying too much and you know, they're kind of being disrespectful, you know? And that, that was more the, the call, kind of the drug sex and rock and roll call before, after Covid the call is, they're not leaving their.
[00:24:20] they're on their cell phone 12 hours a day. They have no friends. They don't want friends. They or they don't, they don't know how to get 'em. Um, and I'm totally generalizing that Sure, yeah. I'm oversimplifying this , but, but just, this is kind of what I've noticed in the last couple years. And so, um, you know, that's, I would say the, the former would be more acting out and, and the latter being more acting in for.
[00:24:47] For the context of conversation that I, I see acting out as aggressive. You know, they're violent in the home. They're violent out of the home. They're, they're scary to be around. They're destructive, you know, they're crashing cars, they're, you know, they're disappearing for days at a time. They're, um, the FU kids.
[00:25:09] Mm-hmm. , you know, that to me is kind of how I would describe acting out. in some ways easier to spot and easier to treat in some ways. Yeah. The acting in is a lot more subtle. All right. And I put it into two or three categories, one being the mask. This is the, I'm fine. Everything's fine. Yeah. No, no, EV I'm good.
[00:25:33] I will make you comfortable. And they're dying. You know, dying. They're falling apart inside, right? You see it in their grades. You see it in their isolation. You see it in their, you know, inability to follow through on something that you're like, wow, they really should or could have. So that's one, I think form of acting in.
[00:25:51] Um, another one is just pure isolation and I'm seeing a ton of that and it is n no, I'm not going. I don't want to, I don't have to and I'm not going and that's fine. And I'm fine and I'll be in my room not to, not super defiant. It, you know, there's a def passive defiance to it, but it. It's just like, I'll do the bare minimum if I have to.
[00:26:15] And you know, I've seen a lot of that since covid. And, and that's tough, you know, that's tough. It's unhealthy. So, so you've got that and then you've got the like, kind of like, yeah, like, I'm smoking cannabis, no big deal. I can kind of do what I'm doing and kind of hold it together, you know, and, um, maybe they're acting out a little more, but they, , they're not in crisis.
[00:26:40] Right? To me, that's acting in still. Um, they're probably listening. They're probably going to school. They're probably semi-functional or mostly functional, but something's definitely heading in the wrong direction and not going well. So those are the things I, I would be looking for as a parent, you know, and I think that this isolation, I hope I don't take us on a tangent, but this is my theory on the isolation.
[00:27:06] and I think it's a byproduct of cancel culture and call out culture. All right? This generation knows cancel culture and call out culture. You get online and you blow people up, you criticize them, you find every little thing they did wrong and they're done. They're done for life. They never get to come back.
[00:27:22] And whether they've engaged in it or not, they've seen it, right? And so if I'm a kid, Who's insecure, which all of 'em are. I'm 44 and I'm insecure, you know, and I'm trying to figure out who I am in the world and I'm, you know, like school's rough things aren't going well. I'm not good at this, that, or the other.
[00:27:41] And like I've got, you know, a lot going on my plate and I'm spending. X amount of hours a day on social media, seeing people get called out, seeing people get blown up, and maybe to make myself better, feel better. I'm like, yeah, you, you know, this person sucks. We're done with them. Whatever it may be. Text, social media, Snapchat, TikTok, whatever it is.
[00:28:04] I think the byproduct of all that is I'm not going out. Heck no. I'm not gonna go to that party. I'm not gonna be videoed saying the wrong thing or the, you know, you know, I'm not gonna put myself out there. I'm not gonna, you know, try and do something at the school talent show. I'm out, out because it will be videoed and it will get blown up and I will be called out canceled or whatever.
[00:28:27] I'm. and that's that no one said that to me. This is my theory. It could be way wrong, but I think that's what's going on with the isolation and the avoidance that I think we're seeing at a whole different level.
[00:28:40] Brenda: Hmm. And what, what I think of when you say that is a couple a million things, but one is that as parents, we, I think what we see in social media can be equally as damaging, but it, I think it's different.
[00:28:54] And what, what we may not be seeing is that level. , like you said, the cancel culture, the calling out that kids are doing today. So we may say, yeah, social media uh, drives me crazy or it sucks, or whatever. But I think we are seeing something very different than what our kids are seeing when we are looking at our device.
[00:29:14] That's my theory. And also we just because it is happening in their bedroom or in the basement on a phone, we don't know what's happening. , like as parents, we're oblivious to all of the crazy that can go on in here, right in the phone. And so a lot of times what I hear from the, the parents that I work with is things just aren't adding up.
[00:29:43] Right? Like, he used to do this or she used to do that. And then no, I'm not seeing that anymore, but I can't think of anything that really happened. And then you throw Covid in which it's like, I don't know, do we call it a. Good thing. But I think a lot of times, just because I went through it with my son, there were things that happened in that phone that I did not know were going on until I did and then I was shocked.
[00:30:07] Yeah. And so we're just not seeing it, and they're not telling us about it, and it's really damaging.
[00:30:13] Andrew: Yeah. No, that's a really good point. It's, it's kind of this silent, you know, thing. I mean, I. . If my kid gets bullied at school, there's a good chance someone's gonna see it. Not always, but, you know. Yeah, there's, but if they're getting bullied online, man, uh, uh, a private teenager could hold that tight for months and a parent wouldn't know.
[00:30:36] They just sort of withdraw.
[00:30:38] Brenda: Right. And even if you think you know their social accounts, I am just saying you do not , I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna put it out there because I thought I was the parent who had all of. passwords and I thought I had all of the accounts, you know, and I was looking at them. Oh no, I had no idea what was going on.
[00:30:58] He had accounts, but you know, I was completely shocked to find and then to see what was going on on those accounts. It was horrifying. And so I think if, I'm just trying to kind of steer back to, like you said, what parents should be looking for that isolation. What do you do about the mask? Because. the mask is really hard.
[00:31:22] If it's like, I'm fine, everything's fine, I'm not talking about it, and they're still functioning, you know, still going to school, still able to keep it together probably for a short amount of time that it, that's hard to keep up for a long time. But what do you do about that? That kid who's putting on that mask and not letting any of the cracks.
[00:31:47] Andrew: That's the hardest one. It really is. You know, you gotta look closer, push harder, dig deeper, awkward conversations. Yeah. You know, which none of us want to have, especially if we've got three or four kids, you know, Amy over here saying everything's fine, and Johnny's the one that's acting out and getting all of our attention.
[00:32:09] Yeah. And then a year or two later, Amy's the one. is failing outta school all of a sudden. Right. Yeah. I I don't mean to be gender specific about that, but, well, I was
[00:32:19] Brenda: actually gonna ask you if you see that more in girls, because I do hear that, that girls carry this. This load differently and that they, that parents, what I hear is, I, I hear that more about daughters than I do about sons, I guess is the way to say that.
[00:32:37] Do you see that or, or is it pretty
[00:32:39] Andrew: evenly? I see, I see a lot of both, but, but yeah, if I think, I think a little more of the girls, you know, and it's, it's easier to, I think we believe girls more . I dunno. Yeah. You know, maybe that's it. But you know, it's, it's. and you know, maybe girls are able to hold it together a little longer, albeit that they're struggling underneath it all.
[00:33:03] And so I think having, I'm a huge believer in like 12 to 13 to like whatever age you need that any parent should do their best to have mentors around that, that, that the kids know you trust, and that you can be like, that's your. . Go, go to aunt and uncle, go to Aunt Susie's. Tell her we're awful, but tell her everything.
[00:33:30] Yeah. You know, or, or go to coach so-and-so, or, you know, maybe at church they've got somebody go to pastor. So-and-so go. Mm-hmm. . And I see so many parents being like, no, no, no, no. Talk to us. Talk to us Developmentally, teenagers are individuating. That's why they hate their parents, and that's why they push 'em away.
[00:33:48] They're saying, no, I don't want you, you don't know what you're talking about. We, and. , we all did it. Yeah. Our, all of our kids do it with very few exceptions and very few. And that's when I want a few people, I want my kids to know. There's a few people in our circle where they can go and tell um, everything.
[00:34:09] And that's in my opinion, for the masking person. . That's my hope for them. And part of that is letting them know you trust this person and encouraging them like you don't wanna talk to me, go talk to them. And if, you know, a therapist obviously can fit that role, but won't always mm-hmm. . And so, you know, having people like that in your community, I think is, is really important.
[00:34:31] And we lost that in Covid a little bit. . Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, and, and so I think that, you know, we're getting back to it, but the, the masking in is also, I think, you know, where I see it in our program is the masking students are the ones that show up the first week. They step out of their comfort zone, they drop cannabis, you know, all this stuff.
[00:34:54] A lot of students show up the first day or two, and I prepare 'em for this, and I'm like, you're gonna feel really uncomfortable and you're gonna wanna. Like, like you just are and you're in a new place, new people, you know, you're, you checking in your phone, your choice, your decision. You're like, I'm not pushing you, but like, that's our program and you're gonna be really uncomfortable.
[00:35:15] It's the ones that are the first week, they're like, this is awesome. This is great. I feel, you know, yeah, everything's great, everything's good. Everything's, you know. Yeah. I got depression. Yeah, I'm working. Oh, I've gotten so much better. And that person three, four weeks. , boom. Oh, you know, that's where we see it.
[00:35:31] It takes a lot to break those walls down for them in a place where they're unable to hide. Mm-hmm. , um, from their peers or from whoever. And they eventually get to a point where like, I hate this. I hate life. I hate you all. . Wow.
[00:35:49] Brenda: That has be so interesting to
[00:35:51] Andrew: see that. Let's do some work. Let's do some work.
[00:35:54] You know, we got you. We care about you. And, and, you know, and they're like, okay, yeah, you're right. This is, this is what I've been doing the whole time underneath it all. But, you know, it, it, it takes some time in, in, in an uncomfortable space with pushing, which it's hard for a parent to do. Right. That's a, that would be hard for a parent to do, I think in a, without so much structure around to.
[00:36:17] kind of pull that out
[00:36:19] Brenda: for sure. And that we're just not trained, right? It's like, well, I've never been trained how to have these conversations or how to dig underneath and really, really see what's going on. And then I, I think too, what you said about, um, finding a baseline because. . I think a lot of times we're trying to do work with our kids, and our kids are so dysregulated with so much weed and so much social media and all of that, that they're so all over the place and we're trying to be like, here, let's have a conversation.
[00:36:51] So if you can get them stabilized. When I say stabilized, I don't mean like, you know, they were crazy, but just removing some of those distractions. The weed, all of that to get to like, oh, here's the original U . Like here's yeah, here's the U without all of the other stuff. And then working from there just seems to make a lot of sense.
[00:37:15] Andrew: And, and it may not be pretty right. Yeah. You, you, you remove all that stuff and it, it may not be pretty, it may be depressed. You know, I want, I'm a, I'm a sensitive person. I take on energy. I want. My kids to be happy and tell me they're great and I'm likely to reinforce that in them in the like, how was your day?
[00:37:39] Oh, it was good. Oh good. Okay. I'm so glad. Like, you're good. I'm good. You know what I mean? Yes. And, and so what may be underneath the I'm good dad. Everything's great. Dad is, might be a really. , like, no, I'm not, no, things are not good. I, and, and that's where we all have to be open to what's underneath it all.
[00:37:59] And I think that you see it in addiction recovery a lot where the addicts, you know, someone in the throes of addiction is, you know, they're, they're not their best self. And sometimes you remove all that addiction and they get sober and they're still kind of a jerk. And now we have to deal. that not deal with them, but deal with the fact that, yeah, maybe they're not who I want them to be.
[00:38:21] And as a parent, you know, I, I'm, I'm guessing as the years go on, I'm a young parent, parent of young kids. I'm not a young parent, but , you know, I'm, I'm sure the day will come where I've gotta reconcile the fact that my kids aren't perfect and I've gotta be okay with that in order for it to be okay with them and for them to be healthy.
[00:38:39] Yeah.
[00:38:40] Brenda: Well, and I think too, I've been thinking a lot about. . You know, if we want our kids to be okay with not being okay, then they have to see us be that way. So if I'm always saying, oh, I'm good, I'm good. Oh, I'm, you know, mom's great mom's, GR mom has no problems, then it doesn't really show my son or my daughter that it's okay to have problems, cuz everything's fine.
[00:39:01] Right? If I'm putting on the mask, then I've just taught my child how to put the mask on. And I think we do that. , we don't know. We don't want our kids to see us hurting cuz we don't know what that's gonna do to them. And so I think we just have to know that we're going to get back what we've. what we put out there.
[00:39:20] And so that just, that just keeps coming to mind for me. As I know parents are under so much stress and so much strain. Even if your kids aren't struggling with anything, right. Even if you have fabulous kids who are really well adjusted, it's still hard. So, um, that's, that's a good thing. Just if you had the opportunity.
[00:39:45] to stand in front of a thousand parents and tell them something based on everything you deal with, with families and kids and adventure and therapy, what would you wanna say
[00:40:01] Andrew: to them today? Two things. First thing I would say is you've inherited the most difficult parenting climate. I think probably for hundreds of.
[00:40:15] Because the acceleration of technology, you've inherited that and there all the, all the hours and work and effort in the world are not gonna change the fact that you've just inherited this uncontrollable beast. And so take a deep breath and, and about yourselves on the back because what you've inherited is damn near impossible in a lot of ways.
[00:40:40] Not to say we can't put a lot of work and effort into it. . I mean, okay. Yeah, my kid doesn't have an Xbox. Well, he goes to the neighbors and plays Xbox for four hours a day. Or my kid, you know, doesn't have a cell phone or doesn't have social media. Okay, well they're left out like there's not easy solutions.
[00:40:57] There's not, just do this and you guys will be great and you did it all wrong and you've blown it. No, you've inherited an an like some impressive technology that's done a lot of good for the world and is really cool and. Foreign, a whole new set of issues that we do not know how to deal with. We don't, I mean, even my program phones put away, we're in the outdoors.
[00:41:18] That takes a lot of work and structure and it's a huge commitment. And some people just say, no, we're not doing it. I've had young adults be like, dude, I'm not, I'm not gonna give up my phone. I'll be like, I get it, man. You know, like, I get it. Yeah. That's your call. And, and that's, that's saying a lot. I think so that's the first thing.
[00:41:37] The second thing that I would. Is if you can give your kids one thing besides kindness and respect and good manners, if you could give your kids one thing, it would be, that, I would say would make the biggest difference in their adult life. It's grit and resilience. And we've gotten away. We've gotten away from it.
[00:42:00] Like we don't. We don't, and it's tough because we're coming off of like my generation. , you know, was raised tougher and parents raised us tougher. We didn't talk about feelings as much. You know, I had great, wonderful, nurturing parents, but you know, you had you, things weren't going well, and it's, I don't care.
[00:42:23] Toughen up, cowboy up, man up. Right? We were saying like, okay, there's toxic masculinity and you know, I had coaches that. Frequently told me, I do not care how you feel. Right. You know, I care how much effort you're putting in. You know, and we've become kind of critical of that. Is it always healthy? No, it's not.
[00:42:45] And I think it definitely needs, you know, is, is worth revising and looking at and being thoughtful in how we're communicating that. But I feel like we've kind of swung the other way of like, . Yeah. You know, like, okay, we don't expect much from you. Mm-hmm. because you don't feel good today. The reality of that is, as an adult with a lot of responsibilities, we don't get to do that.
[00:43:04] Right. And yes, we can do that for our kids, but don't do too much of it. Yeah. Right. We, we do need to do that while they're growing and we're nurturing them and they're developing. Yes. We do need to provide that safety for sure. And we also need to make sure they know that it's really important to. that they're, that they're strong and we believe that they're strong and we believe they're capable even when they don't feel good.
[00:43:29] Hmm. Or don't feel like it, or whatever it may be. And so I have twin four year olds, boy and a girl, so I could use all the advice, any listeners, email me if you got advice for four year olds. I'm all ears. You know, I have more experience with teenagers and young adults. Right. But, but. This week, I said to my kid, like, I want, I want you to practice grit.
[00:43:51] And he's like, what's grit dad? And I've been trying to define that for him all week, because I keep coming back to it like, Hey bud, I want you to be gritty right now. You know? And, and I want you to be resilient. Obviously I'm not doing it when I'm, I'm finding appropriate times for this. I'm trying to be a nurturing parent too.
[00:44:11] Right. You know, but, but finding opportunities to be like, Hey, bud. You know when we were at the soccer game and it was really cold and you were getting rained on and you came over and you're like, dad, I don't know if I wanna do this anymore. and I was like, Hey, your teammates need you. And you're like, yeah, dad, I got this.
[00:44:27] I'm, I'm good. I'll, I want to, okay, yeah, I'll go play again. You know, that was gritty bud, and I'm proud of you. Obviously, I never would've asked them to do anything unsafe. Right, right. But trying to, to use the language that they can then fall back on to say, I understand this concept and it's very important.
[00:44:48] and I develop it, I practice it. I, I, I am capable of it. Um, and I think that the, the, the pendulum that's gone really well in parenting in the last 10 years or whatever is, is the, I'm listening too. I'm validating as well. Right. I'm, it's okay to be sad. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to be scared, and it's okay not to have to do this.
[00:45:10] You don't have to do this if you don't want to. We say that just as much to our kids, but I'm also starting to say, resilience, guys, this is something we do and, and I want us to practice. Dad needs it. Yeah. I have a rough day at work. There's days I don't wanna go to the office. Right. I need grit just to get out the door if, if I'm struggling.
[00:45:30] So I wanna start trying to pass that on to my kids now. It's a life skill and I think my, I guess my concern, and I don't know that I'm right, but my fear is that we're starting to sort of villainize grit, you know, and resilience in the mess. You know, toxicity. Yeah. And, and that's not an E, that's not easy to define the two, quite frankly.
[00:45:52] There's not, and I think a lot of what we were raised on was, dare I say, toxic at times. Mm-hmm. , it was very normal 20 years ago. Right. And it, right. And we're saying, well, it was actually really good for us. I think a lot of us are saying that, um, , you know, and so it's tough because we're starting to understand trauma, better toxicity, all these things With that, we still need to expect more, like, expect strength from our kids and expect them to be strong when, when they can be.
[00:46:26] Yeah. And then to be there to catch 'em when they can't be.
[00:46:28] Brenda: Yeah. No, you're right. It's such a tough balance to not, not swing too far one way or the other. And, and as a parent, how do you know where. , you know, good where the pendulum is in the right range, I guess, because obviously you have days where you're this or that, um, but as long as you know, you're sort of in the right range as you swing one way or the other, it's really hard to know.
[00:46:57] And especially when you have multiple kids and they all have their own personalities and they all have their own kind of, you know, levels of tolerance for. Discipline or grit or you know, any of that. Um, it can be like a Rubik's cube as you're trying to, you know, find the, find the right way to be. So, um, awesome.
[00:47:20] Well that's, that's really good. I love that. It's something that I, I always strive for too, is thinking about that. When is it okay to say I'm not gonna do this, and I'm not just tapping out, cuz I just don't want to. . So it's tricky even for ourselves. I think it gets really tricky to know when am I being the right level of
[00:47:45] Andrew: resilient.
[00:47:46] Yeah. And I'm, 20 years from now, let's do another podcast and my, and I'll tell you all the things I did wrong. , you know, , I know I went toe to toe with my four year olds this morning. They were sitting at the table eating breakfast like, dad, dad, we want water. I was like, , your water bottles are in your bedroom.
[00:48:03] Like, you know where to find them. They have water in 'em, you're good to go. And they were like, no, I want you to get it. And I went, I was like, you . I, I'm told nerd. I'm like, I, I'm happy to help you bud. You're capable to go get your own water. And, and I, it's important to me that you can go do that, you know?
[00:48:20] Of course I love it. Again, this is how I'm gonna screw up my kids. They're gonna be like, , like dad was so, you know, give us these speeches over a water bottle at breakfast. Like, dad, just go get it. You know? But anyway, I'm like, like, Right. But I'm thinking 20 years ahead, I'm thinking like, Hey, no bud. You're, you're actually very capable to get your water bottle right now.
[00:48:41] Yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm correcting the other way, . So, um,
[00:48:46] Brenda: well, I, I love all of it and, um, I think this is really helpful information and we always like to get the inside scoop on what people. The field are seen with our kids, um, because I think it's really different. So it's, it's great to have that perspective and thanks for coming on and we will book a time, 20 years in the future and come back and see how your kids are doing.
[00:49:11] Andrew: If, if I decline that, you'll know. Okay. If you,
[00:49:14] Brenda: if you decline that meeting request.
[00:49:18] Andrew: Nope. Brenda don't want to talk about it. I was wrong. Let's just put it that way, you know? I love
[00:49:22] Brenda: it. Awesome. Well thanks Andrew. We will put links in the show notes to the book that you mentioned. We'll figure out if it's your brain on nature or nature on your brain.
[00:49:31] We'll make sure and put a link to that as well as, um, pure life, uh, adventures and your website and all that so people can find it. So thanks for being with me today.
[00:49:41] Andrew: Thanks, Brenda. I always enjoy our conversations. Thanks for what you're doing of.
[00:49:49] Brenda: Okay, that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to brenda zane.com/podcast. All of the episodes are listed there, and you can also find curated playlists there, so that's very helpful. You might also wanna download a free e-book I wrote, it's called Hindsight.
[00:50:10] Three things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from brenda zane.com/hindsight.
[00:50:33] Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it, and I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself, and I'll meet you right back here next week.