prepare for landing: tools for a more realistic transition home from treatment with Jen Murphy and Hilary Moses of Solutions Parenting Support
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Guest: Hilary Moses, MSW & Jen Murphy, M.Ed of Solutions Parenting Support
The Stream Community: a positive, health-focused online space for moms of kids experimenting with or addicted to drugs or alcohol.
Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted to Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here.
Want my weekly email for support during this difficult time? Click here to request it.
Are you a dad who needs some support? Membership for The Woods Community is now available here.
Podcast support from:
This episode is sponsored by The Woods Community.
The Woods Community is an online space for men to find tools, resources, and personal connections when trying to help a child or other loved one with substance misuse and mental health challenges.
We offer skills that help improve communication and rebuild broken relationships in a confidential and supportive digital environment — not connected to any social media.
Learn more and join us as a Founding Member at members.thewoodscommunity.org
about this episode:
If your son or daughter has been to residential treatment or Wilderness Therapy, you may have considered asking (begging?) a staff member to come home with them to help with the transition. If you know, you know. Thankfully, I was able to sit down with two experts who specialize in supporting parents during this vulnerable time-Jen Murphy and Hilary Moses of Solutions Parenting Support.
You’ll hear why it’s so easy to fall into the trap of thinking “all is lost” when the tools you’ve all gained during treatment feel so difficult to implement in a new setting. You’ll discover why the “container” of treatment is so effective and how you can borrow from what worked well and embrace the bumpy ride to lasting change. Jen and Hilary also share about their new book, “HOME” which will be available in February 2023!
episode resources:
Sign up here to get pre-release book snippets and launch details
-
Okay. I love to be able to talk with people that I meet working in the field of adolescent and young adult substance use and mental health. They're truly some of the most compassionate, talented, and brilliant people I've ever met. What I think is important for you to know is the people who work with your kids.
Whether that's a 13-year-old or a 29-year-old, these people are in this field because they love connecting with people. They love understanding where they struggle, and they have the knowledge and training to help people make changes in their life that can lead to some really incredible transformations.
I know this personally from experience with my son and my family. I also know because I'm unfortunate that I get to talk with so many people for the podcast, and the two brilliant people you're gonna hear from today definitely fall into the passionate and talented category. They do the hard work of helping parents navigate their family systems when they're starting to go sideways or after they have already gone sideways and you're trying to get things back on track.
Hilary Moses and Jen Murphy are co-founders of Solutions Parenting Support, which is a team of clinicians. And strategic coaches who have a long experienced tenure as wilderness and therapeutic boarding school therapists. Their team and their signature techniques have been recognized as the key components in creating effective, supportive and long-term solutions for parents.[00:03:00]
When you have a struggling teen or young adult, they're the ones you want by your side. When you're putting together your team of professionals, they're your ally. When you feel totally alone on your journey or what I call a rollercoaster ride, and what is great is you know that they have literally actually had their feet in the fire with young people in every conceivable situation.
Hilary and Jen also share some really awesome news that they are finishing a book that is gonna be published in February of 2023 called Home. And it's everything they want parents to know about traveling this path with kids, starting with prevention all the way through to the transition home. So that is gonna be incredibly insightful and we will do another episode about that when the book comes out in February of 23.
For today though, you're gonna get some really priceless, I think, priceless information about how parents can fare better. When you have a child who is either in treatment or making the transition home, you're gonna hear about the mindset that will set you up for success. We talk about traps that Jed and Hillary often see parents fall into.
I cannot even imagine if I had heard this information before my son came home from treatment, I would've been so much better prepared for that experience because it is not easy. [00:04:30] So lace up your shoes or do whatever you do while you're listening, because this conversation with Jen and Hillary from Solutions Parenting Support is a gold mine and I know you're gonna get so much good stuff from it. Enjoy.
Jen and Hillary. I am so thrilled that we actually found time to do this because I don't know how to, how to schedule an hour with the two of you is just like, takes a PhD to figure that out. So thank you for being here with me on the podcast. I think we're gonna have an amazing conversation today and, uh, welcome to Hope Stream.
Thanks. Thanks for having us. Yes. I, I'm so excited to have this conversation in particular because I see so many families struggle, um, while their kids are in treatment, but the transition home in particular is so challenging. So I really wanna spend some time there today. But before we do that, why don't we just give people a background on both of you, sort of a quick, we don't have to do the full, you know, life story, but the background of how did you end up doing what you're doing, because you both have a pretty cool, um, history that leads you to where you are.
So maybe Jen, you could just give us a quick background first and then Hilary.
[00:05:50] Jen: Yeah, absolutely. So. I started off in, um, well prior to wilderness therapy I was doing a lot of things mostly, um, court [00:06:00] appointed, um, therapy for quite some time. I was actually on my way to law school before I shifted gears and decided to become a therapist.
And so, but then I found wilderness therapy pretty quickly, um, when my career was getting started and I had traveled out west, so I was a wilderness therapist for gosh, um, probably 11 years I think. And then, and then at that time I had decided that I needed to move out of wilderness and, and just be back home.
I was having my own kids at that stage and just wanted to invest a little bit more in my local community here in Colorado. And, um, but I also wanted to keep helping parents, you know, and families specifically because I had such a passion for wilderness and in what it was providing, um, not only the kids but the families.
And so I literally was thinking, how could I go home with parents? , like, how could I go home and help them sustain all of this work? Because that was actually the funny question I think we always got from parents,
[00:06:57] Brenda: which is can you just come home with
[00:06:59] Jen: me? Yes. Just for a little bit, you know, can you just come home with us and help?
Either that or
[00:07:04] Hilary: can my child just come home with you, ?
[00:07:06] Brenda: Yes, exactly. That might be the
[00:07:08] Jen: preferred. Right? So, so that's how it literally started, like, how can I go home with them? Like, I started asking myself that question and so, um, and that's when I, I developed, uh, Second Nature 360 at that time in my career, which was a transitional program.
So I developed that program and I did that for a few years and then, and then just realized again, I wanted to [00:07:30] commit a little bit more to my community here. Um, and then through that commitment, you know, just had, you know, colleagues consistently reaching out saying like, Hey, we need you to work with this parent.
Like they need you to go home with them, quote unquote, and help them transition their kid home. So that's how it evolved. And then Hillary and I connected, um, and we've been together since I think, what, 2013, you know, doing solutions, parenting support. And, and so it's evolved through that, you know, how do we help parents not only transition their kids home?
How do we help parents, um, while they have a kid in treatment? And then now we do actually a, a good amount of preventative work too. So how can we help parents before they have to move into that direction of having their kid in treatment out of their home? Right. Awesome. Um, so parent coach, licensed therapist.
as, uh, I browed from Hillary, imperfect parent . Like that's who I am.
[00:08:22] Brenda: What? You're not the perfect parent , right? Imperfect parent. I thought, I thought all of you were perfect parents. , right? ?
[00:08:29] Jen: Nope.
[00:08:31] Brenda: And what about you Hillary? How did you end up here? Yeah, I,
[00:08:35] Hilary: so the, the real short story is that my mother is now a retired educational consultant, but she introduced me to the world of wilderness therapy, I think, I think before I graduated college and was heading into graduate school cuz she very accurately knew that I would love it.
And so I kind of went to grad school knowing that I would do wilderness therapy. Um, [00:09:00] went to college and grad school outside of Philadelphia and, uh, spent a summer as a field staff in Idaho at, at Seuss, um, which is the property that blue fire functions on right now. Um, but so 2000. Went, went back as a therapist, eventually was a clinical director.
So I was in wilderness therapy. Uh, from 2000 to 2015. I went from Seuss to PQ and uh, and was there for a while. And therapist, uh, clinical director for part of the time ran family programs and parent visits and things like that. So that's the really short version. I'm a, I'm a licensed clinical social worker, is my, is my training.
[00:09:41] Brenda: Nice. And when you both say, cuz I, I, I think sometimes I assume people No, but when you say I was a wilderness therapist for 15 years or for 12 years, that means you were going out into the desert, the woods, the wherever they're, you know, wilderness therapy programs are running and you're like out there sleeping outside where the kids are doing therapy a day or two a week.
Is that correct? Just, I just want people to understand what that means. .
[00:10:15] Hilary: Yeah. And it depends on the program where you are. Different programs do it differently, but essentially, yes. I mean, when I started, you know, we'd be on snowmobiles and four wheelers for 20 miles to get out to the kids and, um, [00:10:30] you know, it was the best
[00:10:32] Jen: Mm-hmm. .
[00:10:33] Brenda: I think what's, I think what's interesting is that you, you, you might not realize if you are not familiar with the world of wilderness therapy, is that your, your child is getting world class therapy in nature. So instead of, you know, like I remember driving my son to an office park where he would go in and sit in this, you know, like blue chair across from his therapist at a desk and wasn't super effective.
And then when he went to wilderness, he's like sitting outside in the, you know, desert in Utah. , like getting the same level of professional therapy, but in a completely different setting. So
[00:11:19] Hilary: right, you've got that layer where the wilderness is the therapy, and on top of that, you've got great therapists and great teams out there with the them 24 hours a day.
So there's a lot of layers. , right. And the disconnect from life and technology and all of that, which yes,
[00:11:35] Brenda: you don't get in the office, which is therapy just in itself, just being disconnected. So, okay. I just wanted to make sure people understood. So y you two have been in those settings, so you've seen, I don't know, probably every kind of kiddo that's out there that's struggling in all of those years.
Um, and their parents. And their parents and their parents, yes. And I like the idea of, you know, just bringing you home like a pocket sized [00:12:00] Jen and Hillary that I could just look at my pocket and bring home. Um, and so I'm just wondering before we get into kind of the transition conversation, just because you were in the field pre covid and now coming out of this pandemic, um, and I like to ask this of, of all my guests, what are you seeing?
Um, are you seeing differences or things kind of the same? Just I think as parents where're, especially if you've come into a struggle with your child, during covid or just prior, you don't know anything else. And so I'm just wondering if there's things that you are seeing that you might wanna highlight that like, yeah, this is kind of different now, or are things kind of just moving along like they used
[00:12:43] Jen: to?
I think at, for me, at this particular stage, like, uh, to answer your question in this particular moment, I would say that things are just moving along, you know? Mm-hmm. , um, with the clients that I'm working with, I mean, I think that the, the, the real ramifications that my parents that I work with are still navigating is the loss of academics.
You know, and the loss of, you know, yeah. Just academic and misinformation, you know. Yeah. Unfortunately there's just been a lot of misinformation and kids are, you know, are gonna continuously have to navigate that. You know, especially, you know, we're seeing it now. I mean, you can just read in the paper about how, you know, college kids are struggling with math because there was too much misinformation.
Mm-hmm. , you know, so I think that's probably the biggest piece. I think that [00:13:30] parents are still just having to navigate and having to outsource a lot, which is academic support. Um, and then I think, you know, the pieces for me is like, how do we capitalize on those of us who, you know, were privileged during Covid, you know?
And so there's many of us who were privileged during Covid and there was a lot of wonderful things that happened to family systems during Covid for those who had that privilege. And so trying to really, you know, continuously. talk about that, understand it, you know, spotlight it, you know, what can we take from those moments together as family systems and, and how can we continuously create them even when we're not in, you know, the, the height of a, of a
[00:14:13] Brenda: pandemic.
Yeah, that's true. I think that's, and I've heard that, that the academic loss is gonna be, felt, the ramifications of that for a few years, for sure. Mm-hmm. , and, and I'm glad that you mentioned some of the positives of, you know, for those who were privileged to be able to be at home and have their kids at home, and maybe there were some things that were really positive about that, because I think when we think about Covid in general, it's a nega, there's sort of a negative blanket that lays over that, right.
But you're right, there were definitely some positives as well, um, that I know I'm personally craving now that I look at my calendar and it's like, right. So full. I'm like, oh gosh, that was kind of nice .
[00:14:53] Hilary: Um, yeah, that, that permission for introverts to be introverts without having to hear judgment from [00:15:00] others or feel obligated to go and do things.
Yes, yes. Pros and
[00:15:05] Brenda: cons. Exactly. Um, Hillary, maybe you can just tell us, just give us a picture of who you typically work with. So what kinds of families are you working with and what kind of situations are they in? And then maybe, um, either one of you could talk about what are the, well, let's start there and then I'll go on cuz um, I just have a million questions, so , , I don't wanna overwhelm you, but yeah, just paint a little picture of, of who it is that you're typically working with and what they're struggling with.
[00:15:34] Hilary: Yeah. So one way to, to break it down a little bit is through those different contracts that we. Um, engage parents in one is the preventative work. And so there is a child at home or at college, uh, who is struggling. And, and I would say that the parents that we work with have children, well, the, the chil the child that they're most focused on potentially, uh, maybe between the ages of 11 and let's say 26, 27.
And we have eight coaches on our team. And we all have different specialties and we all have a lot of the similar training. But that's a, that's another side of it. So preventative work where there's a child at home, ideally in therapy of some sort, but maybe not. And we're trying to preserve the intact family.
And a lot of those families, maybe it's been recommended that they look at alternative options and outside of home [00:16:30] support for the child, and they're not ready for any number of reasons. And so then we get pulled in to say, . Well, let's see what we can do. Let's see what, what, how we can change the tone of, of the home, what you have control over.
Um, what support can we offer to try to preserve that. Then we have, we work with families who have a child in treatment, uh, which in our language is typically either wilderness therapy or longer term residential treatment, therapeutic boarding school. Sometimes that's also intensive outpatient. So we're working with the parents alongside the kids who are in more intensive treatment, whether they're in a wilderness program or intensive outpatient.
And so there's less of the immediate crisis management for the parents, and they have some space to delve into their own work and learn more about their child and their family dynamic as well. And then we also focus on transition contracts where families are getting ready to bring their children back home or back to college, essentially outside of the more intensive treatment setting.
and, and then we'll focus on
[00:17:36] Brenda: how to do that well. Awesome. And is this, are you seeing, um, I assume there's a blend of substance use and then also kiddos who have substance use and mental health, cuz I always believe that they're combined so you have sort of a blend of all of that.
[00:17:54] Hilary: Yeah. And students who aren't using substances also, you know Yeah.
Kids who aren't using, but yeah, we [00:18:00] have the, the spectrum. Yeah. Wow. And the same spectrum with their parents. Some are using . Right, right,
[00:18:07] Brenda: right. You know, I think that wow, we could do a whole nother podcast episode on that, cuz I think that is something that really gets ignored is what else is going on in the home.
It's, um, because everybody wants to just, and I did this, the reason I can say this is cuz I am so guilty of it. . Oh, I have this one kid who's like wrecking havoc in our home. Let's just fix him and then everything will be fine. , right? Um, if only it were that easy. So yeah, there's so many dynamics going on.
Um,
[00:18:38] Jen: well I think there's also this piece that I would add too is that as parents were navigating so much, and I think Hillary and I speak from this, we we also often talk about like this, we, because we too experience it as parents, right. And we, both of our parents have adolescents and Hillary of a young adult and are emerging young adult.
And there's this idea of like, , there's so much that that parents are navigating. And so when we look at like, you know, our own coping mechanisms, you know, the reality is, is a lot of our coping mechanisms as an adult are just socially acceptable. Yes. But they're still destructive for us at times. Right. So how do we look at that piece, you know, as well too?
Um, and I think, you know, whether we're talking about substance use, mental health issues or just basic coping skills that feel as if they're serving us. But the reality is they might [00:19:30] be hurting us a little bit more. You know, I think that's too, when we're working with parents both in preventative work and while they have a kid in treatment, like those are the topics that we're wanting to talk about, which is how do we clean that up a little bit so that we can recognize, you know, our own stuff so that we can help our kids and our systems as well, our family system.
Totally. Do
[00:19:52] Brenda: you find that parents are. Open to that conversation, or is that, is that one that you have to introduce as sort of a new concept? Like, Hey, we're gonna be looking at the whole system, not just this identified patient who happens to be your 16 year old. Um, what, what are those
[00:20:10] Hilary: conversations like?
I would say that typically the parents who are reaching out to us have some sense that they're reaching out to parent coaches because there's a bigger picture. And, um, as we all know, being able to know that and say that is different from being able to really steep into it. Right? Yeah. A lot of times the conversations still are about, well, Johnny's doing this and Johnny's doing that.
One of my first questions in, in most of my coaching sessions is, what's going well? . Most of my clients know that. That means what am I doing to help things go well in the day-to-day? Right? And even with the training and the repetition, typically the first answer is, well, Johnny's doing this well, and Johnny's and I have to say, Nope, we're not talking about [00:21:00] Johnny.
We're still not talking about Johnny. You know? And it's hard.[00:22:30] [00:24:00] [00:25:30] [00:27:00] [00:28:30] [00:30:00] [00:31:30] [00:33:00] [00:34:30] [00:36:00] [00:37:30] [00:39:00] [00:40:30] [00:42:00]
[00:43:25] Brenda: It's so hard. It's hard to just reframe that in your brain of, you [00:43:30] know, this is something that we are all gonna have to work on together, versus this is something that needs to get fixed over here and then, , the world's gonna fall back into place. So yeah, I, I could just, I would love to be a fly on the wall in some of your conversations, cuz I can imagine they're very interesting
Um, and, and kind of along those lines, uh, in thinking about the transition home, because it's, what I really wanted to tap your brains for is, and I love that you're doing preventative work, um, by the way, and, and work while they're in treatment, but especially this transition home is so dicey, . It is the thing that causes so much anxiety for parents that they feel like they've made a lot of progress.
My child's done so well in treatment and now it just feels like we're stepping into this, you know, unknown zone, like the twilight zone, when they're gonna come home and what is gonna happen. And I wonder. Kind of a mindset parents need to have as they enter this new phase. Um, and we'll talk about some more of the like practical things, but from a mindset standpoint, where do you like to advise parents to get to, to be able to really do well during this transition?
Mm-hmm. ,
[00:44:51] Jen: I think, you know, I think Hillary, maybe we can just go back and forth of just, you know, kind of nuggets of knowledge that we could share. Yeah, I think maybe that [00:45:00] would be, I think maybe one of the first nuggets that I would share is the container effect that we talk about a lot, that programs are such effective containers.
They contain substance use, they contain many addictions. They contain mental health issues. They contain attentional issues, you know, treatment environments, specifically wilderness or really effective containers. . And uh, and one of the things that we see that parents are navigating right outta the gate is the loss of that container.
Um, because one families are not programs right? And so they don't have the ability to be the container that the program was. And that loss of container is something to prepare for. And I don't think we're preparing for that enough. So I know with us at solutions, we talk about that often. Like how do we prepare for that loss of that container effect?
That was so helpful, you know, and so it's a great example of a kid who's really struggling with depression, and that's not really a topic of conversation in, in wilderness, for example, because the container was so effective, but then it doesn't take long, you know, maybe 10 days to two weeks and they get home and all of a sudden we're seeing that depression surface again.
Mm. And that's the example of, okay, we lost that container, so what do we do with it? So I think preparing more for the loss of the container. is, is really crucial. And there's, you know, and how can we do that? Yes. How can we come prepare
[00:46:28] Brenda: for it more? Love that. [00:46:30] Hillary, do you have a, a nugget that you're thinking of?
Yeah, I mean, I
[00:46:33] Hilary: have many nuggets that I'm thinking of. And, and three briefly. One is cuz you're talking about the mindset. Yeah. Along with that awareness of the loss of the con container effect, uh, awareness of how challenging that transition is and how appropriately challenging it is for the child and for the whole family.
Uh, so that as the ups and downs come and as it looks bumpy, you're aware that that's okay. That it doesn't mean all is lost and nobody learned anything in treatment. So awareness of how challenging it was, and that relates to having realistic expectations. No child is leaving treatment, having had a phlebotomy and being a high functioning 50 year old
And so understanding. , uh, as Jen talks a lot about, and Jen teaches, uh, human development and understanding what's developmentally appropriate. And the last thing, which is something that I focus on probably first and most often, is that the mindset is having a, let's keep trying attitude. Mm-hmm. rather than an all is lost, that the parents really can steward that.
Let's keep trying attitude. And it doesn't mean they have to be naive or blind or ignore the challenges that are happening. They can address them and bookend that with, let's keep
[00:47:50] Brenda: trying. Hmm mm-hmm. . Yeah. That is, that is really true because it can be easy to get sort of this like doomsday, um, [00:48:00] mindset when things start sort of unraveling a little bit and you're wondering, am I doing this right?
Am I doing this wrong? And the container, um, I just, even in my, in my brain, I'm seeing like this container, physical container that. that treatment is. So is it that parents should try to think about like, what was really effective about that container? And, and are we trying to replicate some of that at home?
Or is it just sort of like, okay, well that was there and now this is here. Like how do you, is that what you're trying to do is to replicate the container or No,
[00:48:37] Jen: no, that's, I'm glad you, yeah, I'm glad you used that word, because we use that word like we can't duplicate or replicate what happened in a treatment environment, but we can borrow from those concepts.
Mm-hmm. And so what, well first is what are the concepts that we can borrow from, and then how do we borrow from them, and then how do we implement them? Um, but I think, you know, for the, for the value of acknowledging the container effect is, is probably the most valuable that our kids are coming from a container that was really effective.
And so what is our version of a container? And so maybe our version is structure. , maybe our version is transparency. Like that is a great, um, concept that we can all borrow from, and it's a gift that wilderness and therapeutic boarding schools give families, is that their kids have been in [00:49:30] environments where transparency is happening all the time.
You know, all the adults in their world, all their peers in their world are really transparent. And so that would be an example. We can borrow from that concept and create transparency in our home, which creates our version of a container. Like we're gonna be a family that's really transparent. We're gonna be parents that are really transparent about what we're thinking, what we're believing, what we're feeling, and then being able to distinguish between them.
Like that's, that's the example of the container. So,
[00:50:01] Brenda: does that. That makes, yeah, that makes total sense. So we're borrowing from what was working well from that container, not trying to just reset up a new container at home. Right. Which, like you said, would be completely impossible cuz now you've got friends, you've got technology, you've got all the stuff that, that wasn't necessarily available.
[00:50:20] Hilary: I don't have a set of full-time paraprofessional staff. Right. .
[00:50:25] Brenda: Right. You don't have a licensed clinical therapist with you like around the clock. Yeah. That would be a difference. for sure. Sure. Right. That'd be a nice, and that would, that would be terrible. That's not what home life is meant to be anyway.
Right? Yes. Well, and I think, um, and this is just kind of a tangent, but I know from experience that the staff in wilderness is also really. Influential on, on the kids when they're there. And I, when I say kids, I'm talking, this could be a young adult as well. Um, that it's not just the therapist that's so effective.
And [00:51:00] this is true in wilderness and in residential is there's the day-to-day the line staff that is cooking with them or driving them to the gym or doing whatever that are so influential and that, and such a positive influence. And I think that's what I see and what I hear from our moms and the stream in particular is, my kid came home and doesn't have a single positive friend.
All of the friends, are you still using, you know, I can't find a good, like a mentor or somebody who could be like, Guy in wilderness or like that gal who was, you know, cooking with them in the kitchen at the residential program. So I know that that's a struggle as well. Um, yeah, I think
[00:51:45] Hilary: the social life actually is one of the hardest things about transition, whether it's just from, you know, let's say 12 weeks in the wilderness or a year and a half of longer term treatment.
It's so hard to recreate a social group. I think that requires when we talk about doing transition. Well, and what would that ideal transition be? Which I know is one of the questions that you had presented ahead of time, that, um, some real focused time from everybody on how, how do you actually recreate a group of people who care enough about you to push you to be your best self in developmentally appropriate ways?
Mm-hmm. .
[00:52:24] Brenda: Right, right. I love how you just phrased that. It's not. . It's not saying we need to find the [00:52:30] sober kids or it's not saying We need to find the good kids. You're saying, how did you say that? Can you say that one more time? . I thought that
[00:52:36] Hilary: was so great. I think I said, uh, folks who care enough about you to encourage you to be your best self.
Yes.
[00:52:43] Brenda: Yes. That's such a difference. Just the language and how you present that to, let's say your son is just coming home because that's really what you want is somebody who cares about you and cares that you're healthy and doesn't wanna see you overdosing again and in the, in the er again. Like that's the kind of person that you wanna be hanging out with.
Thank you. I love that language. Um, are there some pit balls that you see consistently? Cuz I know when you. with the level of consistency and repetition that you do, I'm sure you see patterns. I'm sure you see some pitfalls that you're like, oh, we see them, we see them heading toward that one. Um, are there a couple of those that you could share that you'd like to get out there
[00:53:29] Hilary: to any parent listening?
Well, and we actually have, so Brendan and I, were, were talking ahead of time about the book that we're publishing Yes. In February. And one of our, one of the sections is the, the Traps, you know, predicting the traps that you'll fall into. So we, we highlight a few of those. You wanna dive in on
[00:53:46] Jen: that, Jen? Um, yeah.
We can talk about my favorite trap, uh, which is the, you don't trust me trap. Mm. Um, that's probably our favorite one to talk about, um, [00:54:00] because I was just talking about this, this morning with this, with this set of parents, because the reality is, Do we really wanna trust our adolescents in this developmental stage?
And the answer is probably no. Like there's, you know, there's there, it's okay that there's not a lot of trust, you know, during adolescence. And, um, and I think that's the trap is that for parents, there's especially parents who have kids who've invested in treatment and have done a really great job.
That's where that trap really falls in is during that transition because, you know, now there's so much, um, evidence of like, look at how amazing I am, look at this work that I did. And that's real, right? It's genuine. Um, and then the reality is, is that it's still, trust is still an issue between autonomychild because there's a significant history and they're also coming home.
Um, to an environment where there was a lot of loss in trust in that particular environment. And so I think it really is a trap that parents fall into that. I think the easiest way to, to get out of that trap is just to one, be okay with we don't fully trust our adolescents and that's okay. Um, and we need to be cautiously optimistic in what they're doing and what they're saying.
And then I also think, you know, identifying where do we trust our adolescents and where do we not, you know, so like for example, you know, I think I could relate to it. Like I actually trust my 16 year old on the internet. Like I have a [00:55:30] lot of evidence that tr I trust how he's navigating the internet and what he's putting out there and what he's not.
I do not trust the amount of time he invests in the internet. Mm. Right. Like if he had his way, he would be on it. Hours and hours and hours a day. Right? So I don't trust him when he says, mom, I can fully manage this. And so that's where I'm parenting. I, I'm parenting the areas that I don't trust and I'm allowing for the autonomy in the areas that I do trust.
And I think that that's where we could do better is parents have just identifying like, buddy, I trust you a hundred percent in this area, not so much in this area, so we'll keep working on it. Mm-hmm. And I think it's just our discomfort as parents to say to our kids like, buddy, I, I actually don't trust you in all areas that you want me to, but I'm open to working on it and finding our way to getting to that place where we can have that trust.
[00:56:29] Brenda: Wow. That's really powerful. And I'm sure that, that, that, just like you said, it comes with evidence, right? Like you've shown me evidence that you really are smart about what you're putting out there. , I haven't seen so much evidence around the time that you're spending there. Is that sort of how you approach it?
Correct.
[00:56:45] Jen: Yeah. Okay. And then I think the other word I would add is reassurance. Like when our kids say, well, how am I supposed to get trust back if you're not going to give me the opportunity to go out? You know what I mean? Like that's the trap. Yeah. [00:57:00] And then the answer is, it's just reassurance. Like over time, your actions, your ability to be reliable, to do what you say you're going to do, like over time, reassurance will happen.
And that's how trust is built in relationships. Mm-hmm. Through reliability and reassurance.
[00:57:19] Hilary: Right. And that I think it's important for parents to be, to be able and willing to share that clarity. What might I need to see over what period of time that, uh, gives me some assurance that it's worth taking this risk.
Mm-hmm. .
[00:57:35] Brenda: Right, right. And being really clear about it. ,
[00:57:38] Jen: which means, and that it's over time because when it's not over time, then it becomes performance. Mm-hmm. , any kid can perform, any person can perform for a short period of time. We're all externally motivated to some degree. So it's that over time is what reassurance is and the rest of it's just performance if it's too short.
[00:58:01] Brenda: Right. Which means also what this brings to mind for me is I have to be able to be in conversation with my child to be talking about things like this. Because if we're shut down and we're just like not talking about stuff and not, like you said, um, we're gonna be a family who's very transparent. , if you're not, you're not having these conversations.
So then it just becomes that like total power struggle of, well, I'm gonna do this. And then we're, as parents, were [00:58:30] saying, no, you're not. And then we just end up back in that loop that we were probably in prior to , whatever, right. Brought us there.
[00:58:38] Hilary: So I'd love to comment on that if I can. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think it's, it's not only shut down, you know, people who's, well, I won't go into all that, but when we see our shutdown kids or there's not a conversation happening, sometimes we have to be willing to accept that they're not as verbal as we would prefer.
So as parents, we need to figure out what's a different way to get them to communicate this. Mm-hmm. , and I think. , um, being able to set a timeframe, you know, it's okay if you don't wanna have that conversation right now. That's okay. This thing isn't gonna change until we do have that conversation. So parents have control over changing thing X and giving them the opportunity to collaborate and collaboration can look like you writing down on a piece of paper or texting me three pros and three cons to this situation.
And then we'll consider it and get back to you. Um, or let's talk, let's set a timer and talk about it for five minutes. You just tell us everything you want us to hear and we'll be quiet and it's five minutes, and then we'll think about it unless you wanna, so you can set a clear out for the kid, especially if there's anxiety, especially if there's various learning disabilities that make it hard to engage in things like that.
[00:59:49] Brenda: Mm. Those are some really awesome tricks. See, you guys have all the good tricks. Um, I love that because I think as parents we have a different sense of time. Even [01:00:00] what you said about studying the timer. Cuz for me, I'm like, well, we could have this conversation and I'm already like, well then I'm gonna go to the store and then I'm gonna do this.
But for our kid it might be like, oh my gosh, I have to sit down and talk to my mom for like the next three hours. So if you're not really clear about what that looks like, , that could be really challenging. Yes. Especially with kids like with, you know, kids who might be on the spectrum and a little bit less, you know, verbal, the texting thing is awesome.
Um, and I'm, I'm glad that you said that because I think as parents, we all, we sometimes think that that's a cop out. Like, if I let them text me about this, I've somehow failed. Like, this needs to be a sit down conversation on the couch. But it sounds like you're saying however you can make that conversation happen is okay.
like that.
[01:00:47] Hilary: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Figure out a style that works and be okay.
[01:00:50] Jen: Yeah. It's so interesting with texting and kids because over the, I'm a big fan of it, and I, and I think the reason I've, I've tried to really identify like, why am I a big fan of things, you know, when I'm teaching them or even implementing them in my own family.
But I think it's because, and it goes to maybe what you're saying, Brendan, it's like, I think kids feel ta like we're talking at them. Yeah. Like, they have to show up to this conversation, like you said, like they're thinking like, oh, how many hours do I have to listen to my parents? Right. Because they're, they're, they're kids and we're parents, and so we're not on the same playing field.
And so they do feel talked at no matter how hard [01:01:30] we're trying not to talk at them. Yes. And so I, I think that's the value of texting, which is it's in their world, that is a back and forth conversation. Right. Like they are literally going back and forth and participating in that conversation. Right. So it's not that I want all of our relationship to be, you know, texting, but there is some value in it.
Yeah. You know, and there's some value in being able to say, as a parent, this has been awesome, and let's actually sit down and talk tonight when you get home about it. Like we can stop it. Yeah. We can have enough of it to say, okay, we actually need to move away from texting and have a conversation. Right.
Or we need to move away from this conversation and start texting. Right. so we might get more value. Exactly. Right.
[01:02:17] Brenda: Well, I think it's great because it gives you time as the parent, like if you're working on craft skills or if you're working on your communication, if you receive that text, it gives you time.
actually formulate how you want to respond instead of being put on the spot and like, oh shoot, I know there's a tool I'm supposed to use. What is the thing I'm supposed to say right now? So it, it gives you a little bit of that, um, buffer when you're trying to, right, when you're trying to communicate better.
Um, it might allow you the time to do that. So
[01:02:48] Jen: I love that. Maybe it's our real world version of the art of letter writing that wilderness and therapeutic programs. Again, another gift I think they give families is that art of letter writing, [01:03:00] which is totally, and so maybe this is our again, you know, real world version of borrowing
[01:03:06] Brenda: from that.
Yes, I can totally see that. And if you haven't experienced Wilderness as a family, you don't know what we're talking about, but there's a series of letters that, that your young person writes to you and that you write back. Um, that's so powerful. And I know is, is really, really, um, instrumental for a lot of the families going through wilderness.
In the last couple of minutes, I would love to hear from you two and Hillary, maybe you can go first and then Jen, what would, or you can collaborate on this, if you could construct the most idyllic transition home scenario. So realistic, but you know, like if you could just cobble together the best case scenario for a kiddo coming home from treatment, let's say they're 17, cuz this is what I hear all the time.
17. Coming home from treatment. Have a last year of high school to complete and they've done really well in treatment and now they're coming home. What would you set up for this family in your idyllic world? Yeah, I think
[01:04:22] Hilary: it, it requires a, a paradigm shift for [01:04:30] schools, right? For treatment providers, for family members.
I, I mean, I, I even work sometimes with folks who have, you know, grandparents who are very involved. Yeah. And how do we include them, uh, really thoughtfully as much as is possible in understanding what's really going on and what role they can play. But I think it does require one, I would say that we wanna give at least, at least a few weeks of time before a family's reunited together.
where we're focused on this and maybe the child in, in treatment is talking to the school, talking to friends and families. We talk a lot about in, in Wilderness, they identify old story and new story. Oftentimes as a pr, a practice. What was the old story you were living and the new story that you're trying to shape, and who are the people in your life?
Close friends, close family, adult mentors, um, and peer, same age peers who we can talk to ahead of time about this old story and news story and about the, your hopes, um, and how they can help you. So I think. some real transparent work on, and, and I think about the craft model, right? Like community, how do we shape the community and find that community that's willing to hold us and not judge us and not shame us?
And I think that that's a, the school systems [01:06:00] which are already stretched to the max, uh, I see it work really well when there is a guidance counselor and an advisor who are brought into the picture before a child's home. And it's all talked about openly and the tools that the wilderness folks have been using and the understanding of what's been happening beneath the surface, uh, that that's communicated.
So they have tools for, for embracing the, the child, um, that family, the parents have their community of folks who they trust. can hold them when they wanna talk about what's been going on with their kids and who can hold them when they're like, Nope, I do not wanna talk about that anymore. Nor do I want to hear how your child is doing beautifully well at Yale
So, you know, having peers and your adult relationships who can handle that, I think is really important. Uh, and I think a really good therapist who, uh, as Jen says, can always shift into the role of a mentor, A good therapist can play that role well, and, and frankly, I think that therapist who can do more stuff outside, which a lot of insurance companies don't support, right?
We don't, we're not covered from a liability standpoint if we go outside with our clients. Um, so there's a lot of systemic changes I would make in shaping the ideal transition
[01:07:20] Brenda: home. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Wow. That sounds, that sounds pretty good. What about you, Jen? Anything that you would add to that or additional
[01:07:28] Jen: thoughts?
Yeah, I mean, I think mine's [01:07:30] probably more of, you know, . Yeah. I mean, that is my ideal world. I was sitting here fantasizing like, oh, what if ? Yes. You know, what if our school, you know, quite frankly if our school systems could operate more like the therapeutic industry that our kids are in, we wouldn't need our therapeutic industry.
Um, but the, for me, I think, I think more of like for parents like this recognition in transition is that parents do shoulder the majority of the transition. And I think that that is the paradigm shift too, because I think there is that belief of my kid went to treatment, we did a ton of work, they did a ton of work, so now they're gonna come back and look different.
And that's gonna be the lead in our system and our family system where really parents are the lead in the change in the family system. Mm-hmm. . So parents are shouldering a lot and it's okay. We can do hard things and parents are capable of shouldering this type of change. Cuz if you think about it, parents were really shouldering some really traumatic experiences prior to treatment.
Yeah. And so they can definitely shoulder these more positive changes. And so I think it, knowing that and holding onto that is important. Um, I think doing a lot more preparing and predicting about what's going to have to take place and what the obstacles are going to be, I think is really crucial. I'm not sure that happens enough.
Mm-hmm. Um, and then I think the recognition of, you know, that [01:09:00] are, that everyone's gonna revert, you know, grand patterns are Grand Canyon deep. Right. And so they're going to revert everyone is. But can we. redirect. Can we catch ourselves? Can we move into different directions? Versus getting, you know, sucked back into those old patterns.
Um, and I think that happens when parents can trust themselves a little bit more. You know, Hillary and I talk a lot about parents losing that trust and their parenting gut. Yeah. So how do we get that back, you know, and empowering parents to find that again, um, and to trust themselves and, um, yeah. And preparing, and predicting quite a bit more than I think that we do.
[01:09:41] Brenda: Yeah. Beautiful. Well, I think this is just a gold mine of information and, um, I would say, you know, what I, what I'm kind of hearing from this is a, it's gonna be work. Just know it's gonna be work and you can do it. Um, and, and that we need to be realistic and have. have good communication and be willing to have the hard conversations.
I would love to know, just from your, if you zoomed back to a 50,000 foot view of everything that you know and you do, and the conversations you have and the families that you see, what, what would you most want a parent to hear? Um, who might have a kiddo who's struggling right now, or maybe they just went into treatment, maybe they're coming home on [01:10:30] Tuesday.
Is there, is there just a, a nugget that you would just want them to hear Hillary man, that's, that's
[01:10:37] Hilary: unfair in, in the final 30 seconds. I know. I think I'm so mean. I mean, I think to me it comes down to, you know, the, the adage, I guess maybe it is, but that you didn't cause it, you can't control it. You can't fix it.
Um, but you can keep trying to, to regulate yourself and stay connected. Just keep
[01:11:01] Brenda: trying. . It's so hard. I love that. What about you, Jen?
[01:11:07] Jen: Yeah, you know what I was thinking of? I was thinking of this idea of just know when to be a autonomyknow when to be a mom or know when to be a dad. And they're two really distinct roles.
Cuz when we're parenting, that's our job. We just need to parent, right? We need to do our job as we're raising this person into this world and not to forget that we're still moms and we're still dads. And that's where the connection is. That's where the love is. That's when we get to love up on our kids and have fun with them and engage with them and, and I think it's important to separate those two and to know that as, as hard as parenting is, just don't forget to be moms and.
Hmm. You get to have fun in the process. Fun part too. Yeah. You get to have the fun part too.
[01:11:57] Brenda: Yeah. Thank you so, [01:12:00] so much. I can't wait to, um, have people hear this and just feel, I don't know, I just already feel better just having a lot of this. So thank you so much for your time.
[01:12:11] Jen: Thanks for having us.
[01:12:12] Brenda: Yes.
Okay, that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to brenda zane.com/podcast. All of the episodes are listed there, and you can also find curated playlists there, so that's very helpful. You might also wanna download a free e-book I wrote, it's called Hindsight.
Three things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are, and importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from brenda zane.com/hindsight.
Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it and I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong. Indeed. Very, very good to yourself and I'll meet you right back here next week.[01:13:30]