a battle-tested dad shares why the support of other men is critical, not optional if your child misuses drugs or alcohol, with Bill Guy
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Guest: Bill Guy, Certified Family Recovery and Grief Coach, Host of the new men’s community for dads -The Woods
Instagram: @the.stream.community
The Stream Community: a positive, health-focused online space for moms of kids experimenting with or addicted to drugs or alcohol.
Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted to Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here.
Want my weekly email for support during this difficult time? Click here to request it.
Are you a dad who needs some support? Membership for The Woods Community is now available here.
Podcast support from:
This episode is sponsored by The Woods Community.
The Woods Community is an online space for men to find tools, resources, and personal connections when trying to help a child or other loved one with substance misuse and mental health challenges.
We offer skills that help improve communication and rebuild broken relationships in a confidential and supportive digital environment — not connected to any social media.
Learn more and join us as a Founding Member at members.thewoodscommunity.org
about this episode:
It is an incredibly exciting week as we get to announce the opening of The Woods, our men’s community for those who identify as dads parenting teens who are struggling with substance misuse. I am honored to introduce you to Bill Guy, who is leading this new tribe of courageous men. He’s been in your shoes, and tragically lost a son to an overdose. Bill discovered resources like CRAFT through the book Beyond Addiction and was blown away by how it changed his relationship with his son, even in his last days.
While Bill continues to grieve the loss of his son, he has found an incredible sense of purpose, empowering other parents to connect with their kids and help motivate them toward healthy change. Join us to hear his story, which includes both heartbreak and healing, and why he’s thrilled to host and support this private community for dads.
episode resources:
The Woods Community Founding Memberships
The Partnership To End Addiction
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[00:00:00] Brenda: Hello and welcome. You're listening to Hope Stream. If you parenting a teen or young adult child who's experimenting with drugs and alcohol, or who's in active addiction treatment or early recovery, you're in the right place. I am Brenda Za, your host and a mom who has. Been there. So just take a minute to exhale, know you're a good company and just know this is your place to soak up, support, understanding, and get some really great information.
[00:00:15] You can learn more about me and the work I do to serve parents like you@brendazane.com. Well, I feel like I have given birth to another child because after many months and a lot of labor. We've officially opened the woods community for men who are parenting or co-parenting, a child who struggles with substance use and mental health.
[00:00:27] And this is a community that's similar to the stream, which you have probably heard me talk about here before. It's a hundred percent created for guys hosted by a dad who has been through the experience with the intention of supporting men and giving them some actionable tools. Some space to talk and to be real when life is probably feeling a little or a lot out of control.
[00:00:40] In this episode, you are gonna hear from Bill Guy who is a battle tested dad, a parent coach, a life coach, an all around amazing man who's mission is to help guys not experience what he did. You're gonna hear why he's so passionate about helping others. We also talk about the unique nuances of what men experience when they have a son or daughter or a stepchild who is using substances in an unhealthy way.
[00:00:56] We know it is the most frustrating, scary, and confusing thing to go through, and for guys who are in it and feeling helpless and angry. This is your episode, and if you're a mom listening, you are definitely gonna wanna share this episode with your male counterpart. Let them know we have a limited number of founding memberships to the woods community.
[00:01:08] Those are available at members dot the woods community.org. We'll also put a link to that in the show notes if you can't remember it, and they can learn more there and get. And a founding membership is a full membership. It's just at a very greatly reduced price so that we can get some feedback and some orient from those founding members on what they want, how to make it great.
[00:01:21] So there are a few of those available at a very reduced price, and I can't wait for you to meet build. So let's take a listen and I'll see you on the other side. Well Bill, welcome to Hope Stream. This has been a long time in the coming to, um, put together all that it takes to, um, bring together community to find the right people.
[00:01:32] So I'm just so grateful to have you here today,
[00:01:34] Bill Guy: so welcome. Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here today too.
[00:01:35] Brenda: Yeah, so we're gonna talk about a lot of things. Obviously you've, um, joined myself and, um, a few other people who are working behind the scenes on really creating a safe space for guys to come together around this kind of shared experience of having a child in some potentially with a, another loved one who's struggling with substance use.
[00:01:48] And that's a really. Big task. So I'm glad that you were up for the challenge. Um, but let's just take a little bit of a, a trip back in time to give people context for who you are and, um, all why you bring so much, um, talent and why you're so highly qualified, um, to do what you're doing. So maybe you could just share as much of your story as you're, um, comfortable doing about your family.
[00:02:03] Some of the struggles that you had, and then we'll talk about what's, what's going on now.
[00:02:05] Bill Guy: Does that sound good? All right. All right. Well, I'm native Oklahoman. I be, uh, I grew up in a, uh, newspaper family. My, my family, my grandfather, and my broth. My dad had seven siblings and there were four boys. And three, my grandfather and three of the four boys ended up in the newspaper business, uh, weekly newspaper.
[00:02:17] Uh, three, three of those ended up in weekly newspapers. My, one of my uncles used work for various newspapers. I think the last newspaper he worked for was the Los Angeles Herald Examiner. Uh, but I, I grew up in, in a communications background, and so then when I went to college, I, uh, I actually majored in speech and public address, but I have minors in journalism in English, and.
[00:02:30] Things that are related to communications. I was a, uh, teacher both in high school and, um, very briefly in elementary school, early in my career in sp I have a minor in special education as well, but, uh, most of my teaching career was at the high school level and also at the community college level. And then I went to work, uh, In 1991, I went to work for the Oklahoma Education Association in Communications.
[00:02:45] I was the editor back then. It was a tabloid newspaper, and then a few years later we began to, uh, You know, different organizations are having websites. Why don't you have a website, ? And so I helped OEA get, uh, the first website going back in about 1995. And then I had a wonderful opportunity to work in communications.
[00:02:58] A meeting relations, public relations, uh, organizing and training for, uh, three other state affiliates of the National Education Association. The one in Massachusetts, one in Tennessee, one in in California. And so that's that. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm in a second marriage, but we've celebrated 32, married, uh, 32 years this year.
[00:03:09] Wow. Congratulations. Thank you. I have a stepdaughter and a step son. Um, I have a remaining, I have a son who's living and my youngest son is the son that we had issues with related to substances. And I now know that he, uh, started experimenting around. The pot and different things like that when he was in, uh, actually in junior high, and because he was not a, a custodial child all the time, I, I had him some, you know, on weekends and a lot of time during the summer.
[00:03:27] But as you know, they're very adept, hiding things even when they're living with you 27. And so I didn't really become aware that Chris. Developed a serious problem with substances until after he had graduated from high school. And then by that time he was legally an adult. And you know, the complications that come with that.
[00:03:38] I mean, we, you know, even there weren't, even if kids are still living in your home, you know, you can't, uh, often, uh, you know, make them do what you want them to do, but at least you have a little bit more leverage, usually . But, cause Chris had, uh, Was out on his own and was working. Uh, you know, I would, I would find out sometimes secondhand, you know, what was going on, what he was into, and was just, pardon me, it was just a long history of trauma was in courtrooms.
[00:03:57] He was in emergency rooms. He was. Someone else's living room, sleeping on the couch. Uh, it was just, uh, you know, a nightmare. And I, I just didn't, we, No, we had generational alcoholism in our family, but we had never dealt with drugs. And, uh, and I didn't use drugs as a young person myself, and so I didn't know.
[00:04:11] I was just like, we like a deer in the headlights, you know? And my thought was, well, there are treatment programs and we will find a treatment program and we'll get him into a treatment program. And then everything would be okay. . Yes. And, and, but of course what I know now is that, you know, to, to go through a treatment program is kinda like someone being in a serious car accident and they're in the emergency room to take care of the critical needs and to.
[00:04:27] See what it is. You know, you may have to have your, you may have to have a cast, you may have to have a, you may have to have a walker, whatever it is that you need when, when you're dismissed from, uh, emergency treatment. And then the difficult part is learning to. with all those adaptations. And, um, and so, and frankly, I, um, the first couple of times that he went into treatment, uh, I kind of manipulated him to get him there, you know, And I, another thing that I know now is that, Unless they have, unless they have come to a place where they realize that they need to get treatment, um, it's, it's not gonna be effective.
[00:04:51] And it wasn't in his case. And, and then, you know, I was, I was in denial too much of the time. I. I just thought, well, it was something that he could quit, you know? And I couldn't understand why he was putting himself through all this trauma and why he was putting us through all this trauma. And one of the many things that I have learned, you know, I've learned so much more, uh, over the last several years.
[00:05:06] And I don't know. I, I, I, I will admit that part of it was I, I wasn't looking for, I wasn't looking in the right directions, you know? And then I think there is so much more that is available now, uh, in, unfortunately, I think the opioid epidemic and so many overdose steps has caused, um, you know, I. You know, 20 years ago people who've had kids who were using drugs were aware of all this and people were aware of it peripherally, but I think it has affected so many people now that there is a growing awareness that we need to be doing.
[00:05:26] And so, you know, more is available. But Chris. Uh, he got in, uh, six years ago, uh, in September. He, uh, he had, he was back in treatment. He had gotten in trouble with law. He had shoplifted for, uh, you know, pay for his habit and, um, He was facing, um, jail time. And so, uh, Oklahoma, where we live has a really good, uh, drug court system.
[00:05:42] And so Chris was able to, through the drug court system, have an opportunity to go back into treatment. Uh, and uh, and then if he successfully completed the treatment and then after being in treatment, he would've gone to something like a halfway house and would have, you know, demonstrated, you know, he would've had a case worker, he would've been expected to go to.
[00:05:55] Meetings, he would've been expected to get a job. Uh, and Chris never had trouble getting a job. He, he was really, uh, he started working in the food industry when he was in high school and, and really developed to the point that he was really in good, competent sous chef and, and had some responsible positions in some, in places like Portland and Boston and, you know, different places.
[00:06:06] So he, he would've been able to get a. Pay back his fines and fees and, and that sort of thing. And, and, uh, he was doing so well in this treatment because I think, I think that he had dealt with it so long and had gone through so much trauma that he was tired of it at this point. And I think that the, I think that the, you know, possibility of going to jail was the wake up call that he needed.
[00:06:19] And so it was his, Uh, to do the treatment and he was doing really well and. You know, about three and a half months into it, he had reached a point where he could check himself out to go to get cigarettes from a convenience door or snacks or whatever, and we'll never know what, uh, triggered him or motivated to not come back to the treatment center and, uh, know now that he overdosed the next, It was Friday evening, uh, it was after a step.
[00:06:36] And he checked himself out. He didn't come back and we did not find out until the following Monday what had happened. Cause when he, he overdosed the next morning, Saturday morning at six o'clock and he was in, um, He was in the, uh, maintenance room of, uh, of an apartment building that he used to use sometimes go, sometimes when he was out on the streets.
[00:06:50] Uh, and he had made friends. He told us that he had made friends with the maintenance worker and the maintenance was kind and would let them stay in the maintenance room. Now, Whether or not, um, the maintenance worker had any, I impact on in terms of helping him get his, we dunno. But, uh, he didn't have his phone, he didn't have his wallet and so it, uh, because he had been part of criminal justice system, they were able to identify him through fingerprints and, and it was Monday then before they contacted us.
[00:07:07] And of course, That is everyone whose child is using drugs worse night, nightmare. But, uh, thankfully I had, uh, a few years before that I had gone through two major depressions myself because I, uh, it had gotten so bad that I could no longer deny that it, it, it was a serious problem and a dangerous. and my anxiety over his use and my guilt and shame over feeling that I hadn't, you know, ear, I had taken too long to come to the understanding of how serious is iss.
[00:07:28] That was, I, I was just in a bad shape myself. The first I was able to, I got some counseling, was able to kinda get a grip on things, but. It was three or four years later when we had moved back to Oklahoma and he was back living in Oklahoma. And I saw really for the first time, uh, on a, I mean, we didn't see him every day, but we were in, we were in the greater Oklahoma City, metropolitan area.
[00:07:42] We saw him frequently and so we were, I was aware of, but. What was going on and what it was doing to him, and it terrified me. And so the second time I went into a depressive spin, it was accompanied by panic attacks, and I had a panic attack one day on Interstate 35, going to work, almost had a serious wreck, and that was my wake up call That.
[00:07:57] I was in, in, in a different way, but I was in as bad a shape as Chris was and that if I didn't do something that I was gonna be, it was gonna be damaging to me. My health was, and, and then how could I help not only him, but. You know, be a husband to my wife and a father to our other three children and a grandfather to our grandchildren.
[00:08:09] And so that was the point at which I got really involved in al a mom. I got involved in therapy again. I, I, I had a course of cognitive behavior therapy that gave me a really difficult opportunity to. Take a real look at the things that terrified me and explore them and come to an understanding that I, I could not control his behavior.
[00:08:24] That, and Al helped me realize that. , his journey was his journey and that I couldn't control that. I couldn't fix him, I couldn't make him get well, I couldn't, uh, what The best thing that I could do would be to try to get as well myself as I could. So that, and then also as I got involved with the Partnership to End Addiction, uh, I became a volunteer peer parent coach through the Partnership to End Addiction, which, as you know, uh, uses the craft model, which, um, in a nutshell teaches parents how to.
[00:08:44] Get control, take care of themselves to the point where they can control, you know, not completely control, but yeah. But you can learn how to moderate your emotional, uh, dysfunction so that when the phone rings, you don't freak out and start passing. You take, you know, you find a quiet place and you take a few breaths and you pause and you say, ok, this is what we're dealing with now.
[00:08:56] What's, what can I do in this situation? What can I not do in this situation? And, and it allows, it allows you, as a parent or a loved one to, uh, self-regulate yourself so that you can, to the best of your ability, given the situation, uh, respond calmly, respond, uh, compassionately. and, and then if, if the child kinda is in, in a situation or makes a decision that they want to get, well then, and, and it also teaches you to maintain connection with them and, and, and emphasize the loving relationship.
[00:09:19] You know what? We are so frustrated at times as parents. What we're so frustrated about is that we, we learned that we can't make them do what we want them to do, , you know? Right, right. And we can't, you know, and, and we can't fix that. But what we can fix is our relationship with them. And I never, you know, I heard some things early on, you know, you need to, you let them hit bottom, you need to detach from them.
[00:09:34] You need to, you know, let them get miserable enough that they're going to get well. Even, you know, there were some tools of thought that, you know, you. Have a conversation with them and say, You know what? You pack your bags and you, uh, hit the road or do whatever you need to do. And when you get back, when you decide that you wanna get, well, we'll be here.
[00:09:46] Well, I, I could never do that . Yeah. Uh, but, but we, but I did have to learn to set some boundaries that if, you know, if you are going to use hard drugs, Or, um, that it's possible that a drug deal's gonna go bad and someone's gonna show up here. You know, we can, we can't live like that. Right? And, and if you know, the decision is yours, if you want.
[00:09:59] You know, some of the times he was able to, you know, pay for an apartment and live on his own, but then sometimes cause of different things. He wasn't able to, and there were periods when he lived with us and lived with his mom and stepdad and we both sets parents, came to a place where we realized that, uh, We had to take care of ourselves.
[00:10:09] And he has a, he has a daughter who is now 13 and she was resident with them. And so we just had to tell him, you know, we don't, we don't feel safe. With you living here under these circumstances.
[00:10:17] Brenda: Hi. I am really excited to tell you about a study group we're offering for the book Beyond Addiction. This is the book I talk about frequently and it is hands down, the most comprehensive source of information on.
[00:10:23] Understanding substance use, addiction, motivation, and what makes people want to change. It's a book that will help you as a parent start to make a positive impact in your home, and also to start feeling better yourself. The book is so full of information that it can be a bit overwhelming if you're also going through a.
[00:10:34] Or if your brain is just on overload. So starting November 7th, 2022, we are hosting a six week Beyond Addiction study group that will walk you through each chapter and section of the book with a guide. It's going to be led by a craft certified coach, Dina Canaro, who is a battle tested parent. He. Anne will give you really practical insights and nuggets of wisdom from her knowledge of the book and from her applying this approach in real light.
[00:10:49] Again, we start on November 7th, 2022, and you can learn more about the study group@brendazane.com slash Beyond Addiction, and I hope we'll see you there.
[00:10:56] Bill Guy: You know, I, I began to learn that the best. That, that I could help Chris was to stay in contact with him, to stay in loving contact with him. And so even on those times when he was out there, uh, I would stay in contact or contact with him by phone. I would text him. Sometimes he would answer, sometimes he wouldn't.
[00:11:07] Uh, but sometimes he would let me, you know, take him to lunch or take him to breakfast or whatever. And so I had done, I had come to a place where I realized that Chris', like I said, Chris's journey with his, and that if I let my terror about what he was doing, uh, debilitate me that not only was he not living a good life, I wasn't living a good life either, and neither was I in a.
[00:11:21] To help him if he decided that he wanted to get well. And so when he, when he did overdose, it was heroin and fentanyl. I don't, I, you know, we, we won't know. But, you know, he could, he had been in treatment long enough that the drugs were out his system long enough that if he used the level of drugs when he went into treatment, it could have been fatal.
[00:11:32] Right. But then of course, even if that wasn't the case, the, the fentanyl could have been, Yeah. Uh, we were devastated. Of course, that's the worst thing. I think a parent can contemplate as the death of their child. Yeah. But the work that I had done to try to help him get well, if he decided to get well, also put me in good stead to be able to come along on the journey of grief and, and the way that I came to, that I could best deal with the trauma of his substance use and then subsequently the trauma of his.
[00:11:50] Was to try to help other people that were desperate and lost and terrified like I was, and if I could help them, that it would not, not only help me along my journey, but it would give meaning to Chris' story.
[00:11:58] Brenda: Well, there's so much there and I just am, you know, obviously the, the loss of your son is just so unimaginable and I think it's, it is every parent's worst nightmare, obviously, to get that phone call.
[00:12:05] And so what I'm constantly amazed by is the resilience that people like you have to take that and. I don't want this to happen to, to someone else, and I'm gonna do whatever I can. But I wanna go back to how you talked about how you were almost as sick as him, obviously in a different way. Yeah. And you know, when we talk about dads and fathers and stepfathers and, um, you know, male caregivers mm-hmm.
[00:12:22] it seems that there's. Almost like a man code of, I'm not gonna talk about it. Everything's fine in my family. I'm gonna put on this, you know, kind of armor and I'm gonna go to work and I'm gonna do what I have to do. But clearly inside you were dying. Right? You're, you're just so sick. So, yeah. What? How do you see that playing out even today?
[00:12:36] Has that changed since you were going through this, or are you seeing the same thing with the guys you work with?
[00:12:39] Bill Guy: Well, you know, some of the people, the people that I work with are generally people who have gotten so miserable themselves that they're reaching out for something. You know, I mean, like I said, it took me having a major clinical depression and panic attacks and almost having a wreck on the highway to realize, you know, you're, you're not okay.
[00:12:50] You're not dealing with this, You know, you, I think. And I, and I do think, I'm not gonna say it's any more difficult for, for women, um, for men than it is for women. But, but there are, there are differences, I think, in the way that we respond. Because, and, and again, this is, you know, talking in generalities, uh, In general, I think in our culture, the man is expected to be the strong one.
[00:13:05] Right? And the man, you know, you, you've gotta be brave and you've gotta be strong. And it's not appropriate for you to show your emotions. And, uh, especially if the emotion is, uh, crying or, or expressing pain or expressing inability to do something and. , and I think that that's, uh, that's still pretty much, you know, you, you tough it up.
[00:13:19] I mean, you look at, I. Just, this is just one example and I'm, and I'm not down on the military at all. I saw something the other day that made me think of this, this young man that was training to be a Navy Seal and he died. They had, they have something that they call hell we, where they go through all this grueling stuff, which I understand they need to do that cause those are gonna be the situations.
[00:13:32] Face if they're, you know, if they've come a seal and they're, they're trying to defend our country and they're gonna be under really difficult conditions. But he had pneumonia. They known his, his, um, the autopsy showed that he, he had pneumonia when he was going through that. And there were other soldiers or were other recruits there that were concerned about him and trying to help him.
[00:13:44] And, and they were rebuffed by the people that was doing that training. And then even when the training was over, nobody called a or anything. And there's, there's an ongoing investigation now, uh, by the US government. They're gonna look at SEAL training. And again, I'm not knock. Seals, I'm noting the military, right?
[00:13:54] I mean, you look at it, um, here in, here in Oklahoma. Uh, uh Oh, no, it wasn't, uh, uh, was, uh, I don't remember which football it was, but a doctor's been reprimanded because they're quarterback got, uh, You know, um, a head injury and okayed him to go back and play, you know, And, uh, and I just think, um, I, I, I just think that's part of our culture.
[00:14:08] Yeah. And, and so it, it, you know, in dads it's like, You know, we're the ones that are supposed to fix it. And the moms are the ones that are the nurturers. We, I was talking about, in fact, I was talking about the other evening with the small group of dads that we have as a a beta for the, were about the. You know, uh, mothers are the ones that are, you know, take the kids to the doctors.
[00:14:23] Usually mothers are the ones that usually show up for, uh, you know, take care of enrolling their kids in school and making sure they have all the supplies. You knows, the dads, my job is to pay for all the stuff that you're gonna buy him, you know, And, and then most, and I know this from my own experience as, as a high school teacher, it was generally mothers that show.
[00:14:34] For the, you know, we would have a night to come talk about your kids progress, and sometimes both parents would come, but it was very rare for a dad to come by himself. So, you know, again, we're talking in generalities, and I know that there are single, there are single dads out there that are doing it all, but in general.
[00:14:42] In general, yeah.
[00:14:43] Brenda: It's so, it's so sad because I, you know, you and I both know. The pain, and if somebody's listening to this, they are clearly also feeling that burden of knowing that your child is so at risk. And to not be able to express that, you know, to a friend or a coworker, and to really just have to put on the facade that everything's okay, is just so toxic to our systems, as you found out.
[00:15:01] And, and dad's really. I wonder if there's also a sense of, well, and I know this from, from some of the work that we did in putting together the woods, is that there can be this sense of helplessness of. I have this massive problem going on in my family with my son or my daughter, or my stepchild or whoever it is.
[00:15:12] Mm-hmm. and I can't do anything about it. And that helplessness just layers on top of the fear and the anxiety. And what I love about craft, and you talked about it a little bit, is it gives dads in particular who are looking for something like, give me something tangible to do about. Yeah. It gives you a construct and it gives you a language that absolutely can help move things
[00:15:25] Bill Guy: in a better direction.
[00:15:26] Yeah. Yeah. And Brenda, what I just thought of was, you know, even, uh, and, and I, again, I think things are, are, are getting incrementally better every year in, in this way. But, uh, when we came back to Oklahoma, eight years, eight years ago, about eight years, and I discovered how, how bad Chris was and what the problem he had.
[00:15:39] I did go to some places. I did find some places here in the area and I, and I thought I'm just gonna, you know, cause it's so difficult to do anything really by phone. And I thought, I'm just gonna show up to some of these places and ask them what I can do. In most instances, what I was met with was, you know, we really, your son's an adult and we really can't, I mean, you just need to get him here.
[00:15:53] You know, you need to get him here. And it was like, If I could get him here, then that, you know, my problem would be solved. . Yeah. Yeah. So even when, even when a, a father decides, you know, I'm gonna take this bull by the horns, you know, and do something about it, uh, you run up against roadblocks. And I'll say this too, and I don't mind saying it cause I'm, I will say that I'm of a mature age, uh, you know, my.
[00:16:09] And, and the way he was raised, it was just the dad's job was to come in and be the disciplinarian. And, and if you didn't do what he was, what he wanted you to do, you were gonna get punished for it, or you were gonna get cus cussed out for it, or you were gonna, you know, you were gonna, there were gonna be, hell pay, you know?
[00:16:18] And uh, and then when you run up with something like, And you try, you know, I'm just gonna say blaming and shaming and guilt and punishment. I mean, even when we just think about those words in, in, in the abstract, it ought to be obvious to that's work, right? But it's just, it's just. Pattern, you know, that, that certainly I grew up with.
[00:16:31] Thankfully, my, um, I, I have a stepdaughter and a stepson and a son, and thankfully, and they're in their early forties. It's different, you know, So I, I think that that's changing. Yeah. But I think if you're a father and you grew. You know, in the fifties and sixties and maybe even into the seventies, you probably were raised where, you know, children were supposed to be quiet and do what they were told, and if they didn't, they got punished.
[00:16:46] But that doesn't work with addiction.
[00:16:47] Brenda: Yeah, it doesn't really work with
[00:16:48] Bill Guy: anything. It doesn't really work with anything. .
[00:16:49] Brenda: Yeah. But especially somebody, and we talk about this when we teach this in the craft approach, which is if you meet somebody. Aggression and confrontation, you are going to get that right back.
[00:16:56] And so, yeah, I think that's what's so great about craft and, and maybe I can ask you, because what I hear from the moms in the stream is my. Male, co-parent, spouse, partner, ex won't get on board with craft because it feels kind of soft. It feels very permissive. It feels kind of squishy. What would you say to that, to a guy who's like, Okay, I've been doing this other thing and it's not really working.
[00:17:11] I've heard about this craft approach. I don't know, like what would you say to somebody like that?
[00:17:15] Bill Guy: Well, I, I'll just say that it works. I mean, uh, I, you know, I, one another thing that I did, uh, coming out of all that is I, uh, I enjoyed being, uh, a volunteer peer parent coach with the partnership in, in addiction so much that I decided when I retired from, Quote unquote, real job.
[00:17:26] Um, I wanted to do that a more formal basis, and so I went through a two year certification program where I'm now an internationally International Coaching Federation, certified life coach. I have a specialty for working with families around addiction issues from training institute. and, and so I've been doing some private coaching, uh, and, and both with the volunteer coaching, with, uh, the partnership and then in own private practice coaching.
[00:17:40] It, it, it works, you know, And, and, and sometimes I will have to say to people, you know, I'm sorry to tell you this, but the degree to which you feel like that you're gonna control. I think that's part of it. Brenda, I think, I think. And it's not just men, but I, but I think in our culture, it's probably more there's a, an extra layer of it for men that we're just supposed to, We're supposed to be in control of things, right?
[00:17:55] We're supposed to be in control of our jobs. We're supposed to be able to con things. And it's really difficult for men to give up the idea that they're gonna be able to control the situation. And I think, you know, I just encourage 'em to give it a try. You know, uh, sometimes I'll just say, Well, you know, I mean, it seems pretty obvious that what you're trying is not working.
[00:18:06] Would you at least consider this? You know, But, but basically what it boils down to is you've got get a control. You gotta get a grip on yourself. Yeah. So you're not freaking out. And then just give it a try because you know what it, what it really involves. Uh, have learning how to set healthy boundaries, but how to have a conversation with your child based upon.
[00:18:19] What they, for too many years, my conversation with Chris was, why in the hell are you doing this? You know, what, what can you not see about this? That's not, I, I look back now and, and I, and I had begun. I had begun to learn this and I had begun to be able to do it some, but you know how. Chris, help me understand what, what this is doing for you.
[00:18:33] Mm-hmm. Help me understand what you're getting from this. What is it that you, you feel like that this helps? How this helps you? And, and also, you know, what are your dreams? You know, what, what are your goals in life? You know, what, what, what kinda life would you really like to have? If you could just, if you could just have the life that you'd desired, what would it be like and.
[00:18:45] And, and then fostered that relationship so that they don't, when they see you coming, know that they're gonna get a criticism or know that they're gonna get some, you know, this is what you need to do rather than, son, what is it that you want to do and how can I help you get there? And can we both agree that that drugs are probably not gonna be the thing that's gonna help you get there, But I understand, you know, at least I understand what you're doing, but how can I help you find some other things that would provide what it is that you need and what you want that's not drugs.
[00:19:03] And that's really kind of what the craft method is like. And it does sound kinda soft, but I'm telling you, it's powerful. Yeah,
[00:19:07] Brenda: it's so powerful. It's so powerful. And if you haven't been, if you haven't had that kind of a relationship with your child, it feels very different. Right. And this is true for moms and dads because Yeah.
[00:19:15] I think moms a lot of the time are, we just are trying to make everybody happy. We just want our kids to be happy. We want everybody in the world to be happy and we're just like happy, happy, happy. And so when we see our kids sad, we're like, Oh, don't feel sad. Feel this instead. And, and like you said, for the dads, I think that loss of control and realizing.
[00:19:26] I cannot make this kid do anything. And so it becomes, what I love about craft is it's, um, a very strategic way to change and shift that relationship that might feel soft and squishy at first. But when you start to see the doors open and you start to see them respond, you realize how. Strategic. It really is.
[00:19:40] Yeah. And I, and I think that's, like you said, just try and then see what happens. Also, like you said with Chris, so ultimately, you know, you didn't get to see the, um, the long term. Benefits of craft. But what you said I think is so critical, which is I still had a relationship with him. Yeah. Because you can go through this and you can be distant and you cannot talk and you can completely lose a relationship.
[00:19:55] Yeah. Or even if they continue in their use. At least you're talking, at least you're having those dialogues. Yes. Yes. And that is gold, right? That's,
[00:19:59] Bill Guy: yes. Well, I mean even really, Even if they continue to use, isn't it better to have. Have the kind. And I think that in some people's minds that that becomes, uh, excusing their use or justifying their use or whatever.
[00:20:08] But I'm telling you when they're, they're gonna do what they're And isn't it better have. At least a relationship with them so that you're not antagonistic with each other. Now, sometimes you do have to set a boundary, but it's not about punishing them, it's about letting them know, Sudden we love you with our whole heart, and if you, if you decide that you wanna get well, we will do whatever we can to help you get well.
[00:20:24] But if you choose to use. We don't feel safe, and so you're gonna have to live somewhere else. And that's not, I mean, he didn't like hearing that. Right. But that's so different from your little sob pack your bags and get out and don't come back, you know? Yes. Um, and, uh, you, you know, and like you said, I didn't get to see the, the full fruits of craft, but I, but I, I did get involved.
[00:20:39] That we, uh, we were able to have her, even when he was out there, we were able to have a relationship. Yeah. That wasn't antagonistic. Right. Right. and I could take him to breakfast and I could take him to dinner and I could see if he needed to buy a new pair of shoes. If he needed new shoes, could him shoes, you know?
[00:20:47] Yeah. And we could. Celebrate his birthday, you know, and, and I'm just gonna tell you, um, one of the last, when he went into treatment, he was in there, like I said, for about three and a half months. And he had reached a place in the treatment where his mind was clear, you know, And we were able, he was able to check out, we take him to dinner.
[00:20:58] It was even reaching the point where we could take him out for a weekend. In fact, we were, we had hoped to take him that weekend. Um, we, um, our other son had, had done a destination wedding somewhere with just a couple people, and then it was the reception for, uh, our, our other son's wedding. And we were gonna check Chris out and he could have gone to that with us.
[00:21:10] And of course, when he wasn't there, we were very concerned. So when we got that call on Monday, we didn't expect that it was gonna be good, but we didn't, I didn't know. Well, I, you know, I had reached enough, I, I had gone far enough in the, in this, that I knew that there was a possibility that something really bad could have happened, but you never know.
[00:21:19] It could have skipped state with someone and gone back. Yet, he used to have a girlfriend in Tennessee could, We didn't know for sure, but we had reached a point where we could, we could really talk to one another and, and we were. One of the last things, one of the last conversations that I had with Chris was, Um, both of us apologizing to each other for things that had been said, things that had been done, things that should have been done, that weren't done, and, and just really expressing love to each other.
[00:21:35] And one of the last things that Chris told me was, Dad, I didn't always like what you said, I didn't always like what you wanted me to do, but I never, ever doubted that it was motivated outta love. Mm-hmm. . and I'll sure take that as a, as a memory now that he's gone, other than me telling him to get out.
[00:21:46] Yes,
[00:21:46] Brenda: absolutely. That is such a important distinction
[00:21:49] Bill Guy: and I think craft allowed me, I think craft allowed us to, to get to that point in a relationship.
[00:21:52] Brenda: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and I hear that from, Parents, and I also hear that from people who are in long-term recovery. They say, because parents will say, Oh, well I think if I hold this boundary, my kid's gonna think I don't love them.
[00:22:00] Mm-hmm. . And what I have heard unanimously is that is not true. That kids know you love them. They're gonna tell you the words coming out of their mouth might not match, but inside they know that you love them. They know that you're doing that because you love.
[00:22:08] Bill Guy: Well, and Brenda, they know what they're doing to you too.
[00:22:10] Yeah. Yep. And I think even though, I think even though Chris didn't like that, I think he understood why we had to do that. Yeah. He may, you know, at the time he might not have articulated it to us. Right. But I think he got it, you know, because of the manner, because I had learned that it wasn't about punishing him, it was.
[00:22:22] It was about setting a relationship that we needed and, and he loved us and we knew we needed. Yeah,
[00:22:26] Brenda: well this is, um, all such good context for, for you and for the guys that are gonna be in the woods. We're opening that up, so, so men can join and we're gonna be, you know, really focused on making sure that.
[00:22:34] People understand the woods is, is completely separate from social media. So this is not joined in a Facebook group. This is not joining anything that's anywhere related. We just kind of say it's its own digital island. And you know, the, the beautiful thing is that you're gonna be able to be teaching guys craft, talking about boundaries, like what is a boundary and how do you do it?
[00:22:45] And set it loving. versus the, you know, kind of, um, negative, uh, approach that
[00:22:48] Bill Guy: you Ultimatums. Ultimatum.
[00:22:49] Brenda: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to be able to just share and just find a place where it's like, it's okay to talk about all this and. Nobody cares. You know, you don't have to justify anything. You don't have to, uh, like I, I would always try to kind of minimize what was going on when I would talk to people.
[00:22:59] Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . You don't have to do that here. So this is that place where, , you can get those skills right to act, to be actively doing something so you're not helpless, but also just finding a, like a comfortable couch or I think you, you talk about sitting around the campfire and just sharing stories and just supporting each other in a way that I don't know is happening anywhere else.
[00:23:12] Bill Guy: No, I don't either. I think, uh, I think there's. Unfortunately it's, it's, it's getting better, but there's still stigma, there's still shame around this. Mm-hmm. there, you know, there it's like, you know, we don't want other people to know that we're going through. Well, and you know, I mean, I, I know someone here where we live that, uh, when they're.
[00:23:23] When their teenage son, uh, started using drugs and it started causing problem, they lost their peer crew. They lo the parents lost their peer crew. Right. And it wasn't because it wasn't cause the other parents didn't like them. It was just like we. We really don't want our kids being around your kid.
[00:23:32] Mm-hmm. , you know, cause he's using drugs and so the, there is still some of that. Um, but I, I, uh, when I got really involved in Al-Anon, I didn't really choose a men's only group because that, I, I, I didn't, I was uncomfortable, I think because I was in the teaching field for many, many, many years and probably 80 or 90%.
[00:23:43] Of teachers or women. Uh, I, I was comfortable working in an environment, you know, with a lot of women. Uh, so I didn't seek out a men's only group, but, uh, the reason I chose it was because of the time of day and the proximity to my work that I could go to it conveniently. But I did find that it was really refreshing to be among a group of men because we all grew up in this culture.
[00:23:56] Uh, you know, makes it more difficult to deal with, difficult with emotions and man, when you're dealing with a child who is mis, you know, even a child who's grossly misbehaving, there's a lot of emotions involved and, and we're not taught, um, I don't think that we're taught in this culture, uh, how to deal with anger and, and men, uh, it, I, I think cause of the, like you said, Like toxic masculinity.
[00:24:12] Men are supposed to be tough, men are supposed to be fighters. Men are supposed to push through. Men are supposed to gut it out. And, and I think that, um, to, to be in a group of men that were raised in that environment, who I just felt like that I, I just found my place because everyone understood I didn't have to, I didn't have to try to be strong.
[00:24:23] I didn't have to try to have the answer. I. It's just for men, for, for me, and I think for other men that I've talked to who have found a group of men, uh, who, uh, are going through this. Uh, it's just like, Oh, I, I, you know, I, I can just be real here. Yeah.
[00:24:35] Brenda: Well, it's, it's gonna be great to have that space, um, with you there and with others, other coaches because having a mentor to, to walk this path with you, I think is.
[00:24:43] So vital and, and to find a a. And what I love about Craft two that we haven't really said is that it is evidence based. So this is, there's yes, so many studies and we, we will post all of the research and everything, right? That if what you're doing isn't working, why wouldn't you look for an evidence based approach that has been proven through research over and over, and.
[00:24:55] To move people towards getting help for substance use, and it's upwards over 70%, I think it's closer to 75% of of the time. If you use this craft approach consistently in the right way, that 75% of the time the person that you're. Loving on and working with will seek help. And so I think that's incredibly powerful.
[00:25:07] Bill Guy: Well, and it's, and and it's also healthy for us as the parents. Yes. Because when we are, uh, operating outta frustration and, and, and shame it, it, it does to us What. Gave me two major depressions and panic attacks. Yeah. So not only, not only is it, is it more likely to lead, uh, If circumstances happen, uh, that, that, uh, make them decide that I'm tired of this, or like in instance where he was facing jail.
[00:25:27] Um, if circumstances happen that, that say, okay, you know, you know, and we know the stages of change are, you know, usually something mitigating has to happen before someone decides to make a major change about. But if, if they decide that they want to make a change, then craft allows us to be in a healthy place to be able to help them at that point rather than.
[00:25:41] Just tied up and not soci. Yeah.
[00:25:42] Brenda: Yeah. Well, I'm so excited to get the, the woods open. I, I was trying to think of a, um, because wood, the woods don't really open. You just sort of walk into them. So I was trying to think of a really clever. Way to phrase that. Yeah, but I couldn't think of one. So yeah, The woods are available to walk
[00:25:51] Bill Guy: into now.
[00:25:51] Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Well, and I like Into the Woods. I, I don't know, Steven Sondheim set Musical into the Woods. I, that's one of my real favorite musicals. And I thought, you know, it's time for guys to come into the woods.
[00:25:57] Brenda: It is. Well, we talk about, um, and this is how we kind of came up with it, is, you know, we'll talk with people and they'll say, I'll say, you know, How's it going?
[00:26:01] Well, we're not out of the woods yet, so
[00:26:02] Bill Guy: we absolutely. We hope, we
[00:26:04] Brenda: hope that men will come in and then eventually they will go out. That would be the best possible thing. So, well thank you for, for being there as the leader and the host and, um, we'll put a link in the show notes for guys to join, but you can go to members.
[00:26:12] dot the woods community.org. And again, we'll put a a link in the show notes for that. And you can meet Bill, you can sit around the campfire and just talk about this stuff, learn these skills. It's, it's gonna be amazing. So we're excited to, to have you. So thank you so much for doing
[00:26:19] Bill Guy: it. There's always hope right now.
[00:26:21] There is, there's, there's always hope. There is, you know, and, and there's, and there's hope for life after the worst that can happen to you. You know, Im wanna close, you said all the things that really happened that brought you to this place very early in life. Uh, when my twenties, I, an opportunity to school in Australia a years and was, uh, it was a wonderful experience, uh, but it was kinda a disconcerting experience as well.
[00:26:35] You know, um, even though they're an English speaking country, they're a very different country and they have very different background, a very different history, very different society in some ways. And so it really gave me an opportunity which was kind uncomfortable at the time to, it's like, to really reexamine a lot of different things and what do I really think about this?
[00:26:46] What do I really think about that? And I. Fortuitously, I came across a book by Victor Frankel, Dr. Victor Frankel, Man, Search for Meaning, and he wrote this book outta his experience as a concentration camp, uh, survivor. He survived owi. He was a Jewish psychiatrist and he was sent to, in all of his other family were killed.
[00:26:58] And the only reason. He lived is cause he was on the detail that took the bodies from the crematorium to, to the crematoriums, from the gas chambers to the crematoriums. And he, he, he t through that awful, horrible experience, he came up with what? Then he survived and he, uh, he hit, he was then a successful psychiatrist and very influential and an author.
[00:27:11] But he said, you know, in that circum. I came face-to-face with the, that the only thing that we as human beings have control over is our ability to decide how we're react to whatever happens to us. Mm-hmm. , and, you know, I fell off the wagon many times, but that's been a touch point that I've always come back to.
[00:27:23] And so even if the worst happens to you, You have the opportunity to decide to try to make something outta it. And that's what I'm trying to do. And
[00:27:28] Brenda: you have, and you have, and you'll continue to, to impact so many people through this. So thanks. Thank you so much.
[00:27:32] Bill Guy: All right.
[00:27:33] Brenda: Okay, that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to brenda zane.com/podcast.
[00:27:38] All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there, so that's very helpful. You might also wanna download a free ebook I wrote, it's called Hindsight. Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are and.
[00:27:49] Importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from brenda za.com/h. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it and I hope that these episodes are helping you Stay strong and be very, very good to yourself, and I'll meet you right back here next
[00:28:02] Bill Guy: week.