co-author of Beyond Addiction Carrie Wilkens, Ph.D., breaks down how parents can help their kids positively change their relationship with drugs and alcohol
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Guest: Carrie Wilkens, PhD co-author of Beyond Addiction & The Beyond Addiction Workbook for Family and Friends
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about this episode:
Bribing. Shaming. Forcing. Manipulating. Yelling. These are just some of the approaches I tried while parenting my son who was struggling with a high-risk lifestyle and substance use. You likely have too. It took me a long time to accept that none of that was working.
But through the book Beyond Addiction, the CRAFT approach, and specifically The Invitation to Change, I discovered our kids’ behaviors make sense and substances work really well - until they don’t. This understanding shifted everything and I haven’t stopped talking about it since. I had one of the Beyond Addiction authors, Carrie Wilkens, Ph.D. on early in the podcast and I’ve invited her back to catch up post-pandemic and learn about a new companion workbook that’s just come out for parents.
Join us for this inspiring conversation as we unpack common stigmas around addiction, understand why using CRAFT and The Invitation To Change approach is not condoning substance use, and why staying curious and building connection is the key to motivating your child to make positive changes. I had a few lightbulb moments myself talking with Carrie and hearing her compassionate and practical approach to helping people change.
episode resources:
Beyond Addiction Workbook for Families and Friends
The Center for Motivation and Change (CMC:FFC)
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[00:00:52] Brenda: Hello and welcome. You're listening to Hope Stream. If you're parenting a teen or young adult child who's experimenting with drugs and alcohol, or clues in active addiction treatment or early recovery, you're in the right place. I am Brenda Zane, you're host and a mom who has been there. So just take a minute to exhale.
[00:01:14] Know you're a good company and just know this is your place to. Support, understanding, and get some really great information. You can learn more about me and the work I do to serve parents like you@brendaz.com. Do you even know how excited I was to get an hour of time with Carrie Wilkins, who just happens to be the coauthor of a book that I might mention on almost every single episode?
[00:01:43] Beyond addiction. Carrie or Dr. Wilkins, I should say, was actually my third guest on Hope Stream. So I was way more nervous to record that episode. And by now I feel a little bit like we're two peas in a pod, just working diligently to get the word out about craft and about the invitation to change, which she talks about and you'll hear more about in this episode.
[00:02:08] So it was just an incredible joy to spend this time with. We decided to record again because as if beyond addiction wasn't enough of a gift to the world, Carrie and the team at CMC decided that they wanted to help families even more, and they created a fantastic workbook that's a companion to the book Beyond Addiction.
[00:02:31] The workbook is called The Beyond Addiction Workbook for Family and Friends. Pretty self-explanatory, and you can get that on Amazon. I will put a link to it in the show notes. The workbook really lets you dive even deeper into the concepts and exercises that are in the book, and it's an awesome tool for couples to use because you can sit down and work through.
[00:02:53] All of these things together and look at where you're in alignment and where you need to get closer in alignment with each other. So I just love this new tool that they're offering. Also, if you've been hearing about craft and you're curious about this approach that Carrie and the team call the invitation to change, This is your episode.
[00:03:15] Think of this as a way of being and interacting and understanding your child, or anyone who's misusing substances, doesn't have to be a child. Think of it as the exact opposite of. Yelling, screaming, bribing, forcing, shaming, manipulating, which are all of the methods that I tried with my son, and let me just save you a whole lot of time if that's what you're currently doing by sharing a very simple data point with you.
[00:03:47] I have yet to hear one single parent say Those methods have successfully convinced their person, child or otherwise, to get healthier, stay healthier, or to accept help or treatment. See your row track record, but don't feel bad if those are your current tools. Until you find something like Beyond addiction and craft and the invitation to change, how else are you supposed to know what works?
[00:04:19] These people in this situation don't come with a manual and unless you just happen to have a degree in addiction, psychiatry, psychology, parenting, all of those things, How would you know? How would you know that there is an evidence based approach that has been proven in research to work to help you motivate your child toward being healthier and often toward accepting help, whether that be formal treatment or some other form.
[00:04:53] I didn't know that, but once I did find this approach and started implementing it with my son in my family, things started to shift with my son and I see it daily in the families that I work with. So with that, I will let you hear it straight from the source. I'm so grateful for Carrie and the entire team at cmc, and especially now for this new workbook.
[00:05:19] It is going to be a game changer. Take a listen. Definitely take some notes. You will be so, so glad you did. Carrie, welcome to, Well, I should say welcome back to Hope Dream, because I went back and looked. You are my third
[00:05:36] Dr. Carrie: guest. Oh, is that true?
[00:05:38] Brenda: Yes. So welcome back.
[00:05:42] Dr. Carrie: I was gonna say, I think I've dissociated a fair amount of time thanks to Covid.
[00:05:46] I'm like, I don't even know what year it is. Oh my gosh.
[00:05:48] Brenda: It was pre Covid that we spoke. Oh, ,
[00:05:51] Dr. Carrie: Okay. So that, that tells ago, that was a, that was a lifetime ago. . I, we've got some wear and tear on us since then. I think , right?
[00:05:59] Brenda: I know all the gray hair that's up. Um, yes. But I'm, I'm really happy to be chatting again because I know everybody who's listening.
[00:06:08] If you're a regular listener, you probably roll your eyes every time I. And what book do I want you to go get? . And I think like I can hear the echo in everybody's like, Beyond addiction. Okay. But, um, I say that because I hear from people that it's. So helpful. So thank you for your work on that and for all of the work that you've done since then, the workbook that we'll talk about today, um, and just for being here to chat.
[00:06:38] Dr. Carrie: Well, and I'm going to thank you and thank everybody who listens to your show. I mean, just being out there in the world trying to share this information and just give. Parents and family members what they need to help themselves and help the people they love. I mean, it's a, it's quite the mission that we all have and the more people involved and the more love involved and the more kindness involved, that's all, That's all good.
[00:07:01] That's how it's gonna happen. It is.
[00:07:03] Brenda: It's really good. And you know, we've, I. I would love to hear from your standpoint, cuz you're, you're on boots on the ground with, with people who are in treatment and, and who are really, um, in this post pandemic. Are we just seeing the tip of the iceberg, do you think?
[00:07:21] Like, I just am so, I mean, I see it in the parents that I work with, but it's, you know, I'm seeing young people in particular who's really struggled through covid from a treatment standpoint. They got that just the short end of the stick. So many issues with treatment during Covid, um, but like from a mental health, an addiction standpoint.
[00:07:43] Where do you, like, what do you see going on and what do you think's coming in the next few years? Um,
[00:07:50] Dr. Carrie: concerned , I mean, I think the mental health crisis in particular with the adolescence is, I mean, we're only gonna see more and more of it and, you know, whether or not it's due to covid or I'm. I have so many not nice feelings about social media.
[00:08:06] Um, I just think teenagers are, um, I'm not sure. I'm not sure I would've survived my teenage years had I been, had to deal with social media. Um, I think it's really having such an impact on their mental health, their ability to connect with each other, their ability to communicate effectively, um, their sense of selves.
[00:08:24] I just think it, it's just quite painful actually. And I think the bullying that happens behind this, you know, there's just so much that parents. Don't know because it's just, it's happening on their phones. Um, and that is true for substance use too. I mean, the number of teens and parents that we're talking of with whose kids were in their bedroom eating edibles and vaping and doing all of these things that are not even on parents' radar, they don't even know they exist.
[00:08:50] First of all, they can't smell it. They can't see it, you know, and it's just, so I think parents are just dealing with online pornography, online gambling, like there. So much access, um, you know, that kids just have. Relentlessly. Um, I, I would be terrified right now if I had a teenager . Like, it's just, so, yes, we can talk about the importance of self care if you have a teenager or a young adult right now, because you've gotta be able to survive with them.
[00:09:16] Um, so I, I worry about a lot of things just continuing to get more painful for people. Um, and you know, and I think we're all just depleted. I mean, I think just after a couple years of the pandemic and just the economy and just all the things are climate like, we all have something that we're. Concerned about, um, and there's not a lot of gas in our tank after the, after the pandemic.
[00:09:39] So I think, um, resiliency is down, um, right when we need tons of compassion . Um, so I think everybody's a little great around the edges and that's. That'll just keep showing up.
[00:09:53] Brenda: Definitely. I think freighted around the edges is a really great description for parents in particular who, Yeah, like you said, stuff's going on that they have no idea is going on.
[00:10:06] And so, you know, a lot of the parents that I work with, they'll say, I have no idea. Like I, I can't think of anything really bad that's happened. You know, like they're thinking of kind of the big T traumas and. I think there is so much happening. on that little device. Mm-hmm. that is in front of their face all the time from Yeah.
[00:10:27] Bullying. I mean, my son at one point was kind of being, um, well, somebody had created a fake profile on fake, This is back years ago on Facebook was the big thing. Instagram wasn't even around yet.
[00:10:38] Dr. Carrie: Or TikTok,
[00:10:39] Brenda: or TikTok. And you know, some, some guy at school had created a fake account with a really pretty picture of a girl and like catfished him for a month before he figured out that it was some other guy.
[00:10:52] It's just so crazy and I had no idea any of that was going on, and it's just, yeah.
[00:10:59] Dr. Carrie: Yeah, and I think there's the communication skills. I mean, I, I really have to intentionally, like when I'm doing an interview with a teenager or a young adult and they're, they're telling me about some interpersonal rift, you know, a breakup or a fight with a friend or something, I methodically ask was that argument in person.
[00:11:19] On your phone, was it, were you talking to them or was it by text? And 90% of the time is by text, you know, so they're having these like horrible, painful breakups and everything else that's happening. And it's by text. There's no tone of voice. There's no eye contact, there's no facial expression, there's nothing.
[00:11:36] So there's, they're misunderstanding. You know, they think, they say there's, there's communicating when they're actually not, because all of that other stuff is missing. So they're just, I think those wounds, um, and those. I just think there's, We can't heal if we're not connected. Right. . And they think they're connected to their peers through their electronics, but the human connection is really, I think, getting worse and worse.
[00:12:05] And I'm quite worried about that. Right. And I think, and if I will sometimes talk about addiction and substance use problems as. Problem of connection. You know, like if you're having a relationship with a substance that tells me you're having a hard time having relationships with human beings, um, something is not going well and your relationships or your ability to connect with humans, other humans and your body, um, if you are doing everything through a substance, um, so to, that's gonna get worse.
[00:12:37] If we have less and less human connection, um, I think that's gonna get.
[00:12:41] Brenda: That's a really good way to think about it. That, um, they do have a relationship and I know part of working through the invitation to change and, and all of your work, we really try to teach parents to ask those questions about what is that relationship that you have with marijuana?
[00:12:57] What is the relationship you have with whatever it is that they're putting in their bodies? Um, and we can get to that. I'm curious about the how, how do you guys see the pickup? The people embracing kind of at a user level, people embracing craft and the invitation to change and this, this kind of opposite way of approaching.
[00:13:22] Our loved ones who have, you know, struggling with substance use. Um, I know it's really hard for me to gauge, uh, because I have a podcast and like you can look at download numbers, but that's really kind of nebulous. Um, do you have any data or anything that shows that this is on an upswing, that people are embracing?
[00:13:41] This other more kind of compassionate and loving way of, of helping
[00:13:45] Dr. Carrie: people. Um, I don't have any data, but you know, I will say we got trained by Bob Meyers probably 18 years ago now. I mean, we were, we were way back in the beginning, um, got trained. He trained just to be trainers in craft. And so we were out champion craft, um, for years and years and years.
[00:14:04] And we would go, we would give presentations, we would go to conferences and we would say, Do you know anything about craft? It would be crickets, not, not a single like, and it would be rooms full of treatment providers. Right. And so nobody would know what we were talking about, which is why we wrote Beyond Addiction.
[00:14:20] We were like, we've gotta get the word out. . I love Bob and I love all the people that created craft scientists and researchers are terrible disseminators, Right? They don't get their information out into the world. Well, so we wrote, um, Beyond Addiction to try to do that. We were like, this is, this is maddening that more people don't know about this.
[00:14:39] So, Beyond addiction was our effort to get it out into the world, um, and try to put some context around it so that people can pick it up and find it to be user friendly. And, um, and I like, I think we did an okay job doing that. Um, what I will say now is when we go to conferences and I start talking about craft or the invitation to change, I always pull, and I have this, I've been doing this for 15 years.
[00:15:03] How many in the audience know about craft And now most people will have known about it, which is awesome. I'm always like, this is so great. Like, you guys all know what craft is. Um, so I think it's just out there more. And actually I think, um, more states are mandating, um, that, you know, craft be part of the.
[00:15:21] Protocols being used in at least agencies that are state funded. You know, so states are waning and more, um, you know, in terms of saying you gotta actually use an evidence based treatment approach for the families that you're interacting with. Um, you know, so that's new and I think that has potential to change a lot of things.
[00:15:38] I think a lot of the recovery coaching, like the peer support. Networks are learning about craft and are picking it up. So I, there does seem to be a lot of traction right now around craft, which is awesome. Um, and you know, the invitation to Change came out because we, you know, we've been doing trainings in craft for years and years and years.
[00:15:58] Um, and just in training parents and, you know, with the partnership, like trying to train parents to support other parents, like we really wanted to be able to like have, you know, cuz there's never gonna be enough treatment providers. In this country to deal with the need. Right. ? Yeah. Correct. And there's lots of, there's lots of communities who are never going to go to treatment.
[00:16:17] They're just not, They're, they don't believe in treatment. They've got cultural reasons for not going to treatment, but their, their family members and their community members want their loved ones to be well, right? So they might pick up these strategies because they're consistent with their community values and their loved one may never have to go to treatment, which would be awesome.
[00:16:37] But in training, Lay people to support other lay people. We just suddenly realized that it's very hard to pick up and embrace craft when you have a very stigmatized understanding of addiction in your mind. And most people in this country have a very stigmatized understanding of addiction. You know, because we, we get the messaging relentlessly.
[00:16:56] It's like, you gotta. Your loved one has to hit bottom. You're a codependent use tough love, like all the things that everybody knows, right? Yeah. So everybody's got that in their head. Literally everyone. Um, the person with the problem, the family member, the police department, like that's how we talk about addiction, you know, And we lock people up and we want people to be.
[00:17:16] We wanna do everything we can to help them hit bottom faster. Right? That's better. Right? Exactly right. Well, so it turns out that's basically the opposite of what people need. Um, and so in trying to train craft, we realized we needed to create another platform for people to shift their perspective on the problem so that they were more motivated.
[00:17:36] To pick up the craft skills. So the invitation to change has craft in it. So craft is all in there. Mm-hmm. . Um, and then we added something that we call the, um, helping with understanding section, which includes behaviors make sense, which is like, really your loved one is doing something. Because it makes sense to them.
[00:17:55] Substances work and they work in very particular ways and they work in different ways for every single person using them. And they're compelling, right? , you know, like your loved one's not using substances cuz they're a bad person. They're using it because it helps them in some way. Um, and they're gonna keep doing that until they learn a behavior that replaces that need.
[00:18:14] Right? They can't, you can't just ask them to give it up. Like that's just not gonna work. . They've gotta learn other replacement behaviors. So we've really put. Idea of if you can step back and understand how those behaviors make sense, you as a loved one can be like, Oh, social anxiety. They don't know how to relate socially, or emptiness or loneliness or physical pain, or whatever it is, which helps you then kind of think through a path of what can I do to support.
[00:18:43] Them learning other behaviors to do that. It also gives me more compassion. It helps me be less angry. It doesn't condone it. It doesn't say, Oh, okay, it's okay. You use it. Anxiety. So go ahead and keep doing that so you're not condoning it. But it just, if you can increase understanding, you can increase connection and compassion, which helps people stay engaged.
[00:19:03] So we've added that. We added, um, one size doesn't fit all, which is this idea of. I don't know what's gonna help your loved one. It may be rehab, it may not be. Yeah. You know, like it may be talking to rabbi, it may be talking to the coach. It may be seeing a, you know, learning specialist cuz they're struggling with the learning disabilities.
[00:19:21] Like, open your horizons of what might help your loved one. Um, and don't feel like you gotta jam 'em into one corner and if they're not doing it that way, They're not gonna get better. Right. Which is really feel that if they're not going to meetings, if they don't go to rehab, if they don't do this, if they don't do that, that means they're not, you know, there's lots of language that gets people really stuck, um, in terms of just making it hard to help.
[00:19:44] Um, and then, um, ambivalence is normal. Just this idea of like, We're all ambivalent. Human beings are ambivalent. Um, we can really wanna change. And we go back to old behaviors. It happens all day long. How you respond to ambivalence is, can be the deal breaker, right? Because you can respond in ways that help the person shift back to the healthy behavior, or you can respond in ways that drive them further into the destructive behavior.
[00:20:10] Um, so really helping family members realize. Ambivalence is something to be worked with. Um, and you can really move it along or you can shut it down. Um, you know, and that goes to the communication strategies that you hinted out of, like, how do we talk about these things, right? So I can make you defensive in one minute in terms of how I talk to you, or I can create a platform where you wanna talk to me and I can learn more about you.
[00:20:35] And if I learn more about you, then I can help you. So, you know, the invitation to change is all about trying to help people. Understand the problem, so they're willing to engage. In learning the skills that will help them be effective. Helpers. Hi, I'm taking a
[00:20:52] Brenda: quick break because I wanna let you know about the private online community I created and host for moms who have kids misusing drugs or alcohol.
[00:21:00] It's where I hang out between the episodes, so I wanted to share a little bit about it. This place is called The Stream, and it isn't a Facebook group. It's completely private away from all social media sites where you start to take care of. Because through all of this, who is taking care of you, The Stream is a place where we teach the craft approach and skills to help you have better conversations and relationships, and we help you get as physically, mentally, and spiritually healthy as possible so that you can be even stronger.
[00:21:33] For your son or daughter, you can join us free for two weeks to see if it's the right kind of support for you and learn more about all the benefits that you get as a member@thestreamcommunity.com, and I'll see you there. Now let's get back to the conversation.
[00:21:52] No, that's a really great bird's eye view of it. And I, the ambivalence piece is one that I see parents struggle with so much because it is so frustrating.
[00:22:06] Dr. Carrie: Well, it's
[00:22:06] Brenda: scary and it's so scary. So maybe could you talk just a little bit, maybe give an example or two if, If I am. the kid and I'm super ambivalent.
[00:22:16] I'm like, you know, I'm not gonna quit smoking pot. Like, it makes, it calms my anxiety mom. Like, why would I do that? That, you know, this is the only thing that makes me feel normal. Mm-hmm. , you know, like, but I also wanna make the football team . Right. That's, that's something that we hear all the time is like this, you know, two sides of something and you know, teenagers are also working with that under.
[00:22:43] Prefrontal cortex. So you got, you got that on board, right? Um, so what, I mean, how do you help people kind of understand that ambivalence and then try to work through it so you don't shut someone down? Cuz I, I just see that time and time again. .
[00:23:00] Dr. Carrie: Well, so that, that's such a good example of the multilayered skill that it takes to navigate this stuff Well, um, because that, like, mom, I, I wanna hang onto my pot cuz it helps with my social anxiety.
[00:23:12] And you're making a big deal out of this and it's not a big deal if you as a parent, it's legal, right? And so if you as a parent, lock into the fight there and are like, it's illegal and you're gonna become a drug addict and all the stuff. Of course you might wanna say when you're frightened and mad and all sorts of things, right?
[00:23:31] Usually, and parents really, like, they feel this in their heart. They know those strategies, don't do anything but lead to a fight with your kid, which feels bad, right? So, So there's the, okay, like I'm not gonna go into lecture mode here. Like are there things that I can do in this conversation that get you talking to me?
[00:23:50] I might not like that you smoke pot because you're anxious, but how about if I start asking questions to get you to tell me even more? So tell me how it helps. Tell me what, how does it affect you? Um, you know, like, I, I actually like, I don't like it. It scares me, but I actually wanna understand it. Hmm.
[00:24:07] Your kid, depending on their teenage ness. Um, you know, cuz the teenager may be like, I'm not gonna tell you anything mom. Um, and then there's other things you can do. But if you can approach a conversation like that, even if you get like one nugget of information you didn't have before, that could be really valuable.
[00:24:23] Yes. You've also taught your kid. That they can talk to you, you know, and that you're not gonna instantly jump to anger or anxiety and that they can tell you what's going on, which will pay off down the road. Um, and then like to be able to amplify what the kid is saying they want, which is football. Like, okay, like I understand the anxiety is like really bad, but I also understand you really wanna play football.
[00:24:44] Do you think pockets are your way of that? Like, are there things that I can help you so that football is easier for you to get to? Or, you know, like, let's, let's really. This thing over here, you know, that competes with the substance use. How can I do everything as a parent to make sure that is easily accessible?
[00:25:01] Um, you know, so that I'm shining a light over here and I'm diminished. I'm just trying to understand this and I'm gonna diminish the light over here. . No, that, that makes sense. You know, and then like, there's all sorts of reinforcement things you can do to reinforce the behavior that you hope to see. And, you know, and there may be kind of natural consequences that you gotta let play out.
[00:25:21] Around the pot so that they realize like, ugh, pots like actually not working so well for me. Um, if you just fight with it, then you are just the problem as the parent, right? The kid's not looking at themselves at all. They're just thinking, Mom's a nightmare, um, for nagging me all the time about pot. So I really like to try to help parents just get themselves out of the way in terms of being the problem.
[00:25:41] Like let those natural consequences play a role, um, because they're, they tend to be way more. Meaningful to the kid. Definitely. Definitely. And that is, that's hard as a parent to, to just regulate in that space, um, and let some of that play out and keep your opinions to yourself and still feel like you're doing something, you know, to help your kid.
[00:26:02] Definitely.
[00:26:03] Brenda: It's so hard to let those natural consequences play out because we are wired as parents to fix and to solve and to rescue. And so I see that as a big a. Problem. But kind of back to what you were saying with the, um, you know, there's, there's a little bit of a perception I think for, for parents that if I know my kid is doing smoking pot or taking Xanax, or which is actually fentanyl, these days, I don't think you could even get a, a street Xanax anymore.
[00:26:35] Mm-hmm. . Um, if I'm nice to them and if I listen to them and if I ask them questions. Aren't I enabling them? Aren't I this codependent person? Because this is kind of what we read and what we hear. And so then we feel like the only option to that is to just confront and, and push and take things away and punish.
[00:26:58] Um, so how do, how do we wrestle with
[00:27:01] Dr. Carrie: that? Well, I think, um, a good place to start is, so there's two questions I would usually ask of like, do you feel those strategies are working? Like if they're working. Okay, maybe . Um, most people feel like, No, I'm fighting with my kid all the time, or they're doing it anyway, or they're going further underground.
[00:27:23] They're just getting better at hiding it from me. Um, now I'm upset with it. So, you know, when peop, again, going back to that idea of behaviors, make sense. They're doing it because it works in some way. So you and substances are powerful, right? They're really powerful. They're affecting the brain, they're affecting the body.
[00:27:42] So you're essentially competing with that substance. Like is one of the ways to kind of think about is that substance feels good and your relationship with your kid feels bad to them cuz you're fighting all the time. They're gonna keep choosing the sub. Because it feels better. It feels easier. And they might, that substance might actually be helping them numb out the fights.
[00:28:02] Um, you know, like, and block all that out. So it's painful. But to really, and, and this isn't to say the parents the problem, like you're the problem and causing all of it. Not at all. It's just to kind of really be honest about like the impact of substances, which. They feel good. They make anxiety go away, they make discomfort go away.
[00:28:21] You know? So if you can actually deepen the connection and create an environment where conversations are really happening, um, because your kid feels safe to tell you what's going on, again, it's not about condoning it. Having a conversation about what's happening for your kid isn't giving them a pass , right?
[00:28:40] It's actually being able to give you two things. An opportunity to connect with your kid and for them to be like, Wow, mom, I've just had a good conversation with my mom or my dad. Cool . Like, they didn't yell at me. Cool. Maybe I'll do it again. , you know, Right. Not tomorrow, but maybe not next week. I'll, I'll come to them for something.
[00:28:59] Right? So you're creating that space, which is awesome. If you get them talking to you, you're gonna get information that then allows you to walk away from that conversation and think, Okay, what else in the environment can I shift? Can I. Can I have an impact on, you know, um, what can I reinforce? What consequence do I need to give them?
[00:29:18] What do I need to tell them? Okay, if you do this again, you're gonna blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, so there's lots of strategy and kind of ways to think through it, but the, um, the being nice to your kid, I mean, going back to the stigmatized understanding of addiction, I think that's precisely why we have this whole helping with understanding section because.
[00:29:36] that messaging is corrosive. Um, it is corrosive to relationships. Um, it is completely ironic to me that the cure for substance use problems is connection and all that messaging is disconnect. It's like, it's just like, I'm like, How did we even get here? I don't know. Right. I don't understand . Right.
[00:29:56] Brenda: Well, it seems, it seems so obvious when you think about it in those terms that.
[00:30:02] And I love how you said I had never, I had never made that. I just sort of made a mental connection to, you know, if I, if I'm gonna have a relationship with substances and it feels good and it works and it solves a problem, or I'm gonna have a relationship with my mom or my dad, or my grandparent, or whoever's with me the most.
[00:30:20] And that feels really tension filled and really sandpaper. Hmm. Which 1:00 AM I, Which 1:00 AM I gonna default to? Right. So that, that makes a ton of sense. Um, and I, but I do think that there is this, this feeling of, if I even engage in a conversation to try and understand this with my son or my daughter, they're gonna think I'm condoning it.
[00:30:46] And so I'm glad to hear you say that that's not true. They're just gonna feel like you're a safe place to have the conversation. and I mean, unless you're saying like, Oh, Johnny, that's really smart that you're smoking pot all day. . Right. You know, which no, no one's gonna say are, is there language to use to, I'm trying to think of what, what somebody a parent could say that would feel like a connection, feel like curiosity, but to the child doesn't sound like, my mom thinks this is okay.
[00:31:17] Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
[00:31:18] Dr. Carrie: Yeah. So, Just another thing that's probably worth talking about in terms of the invitation and change approach is that the next section is called Helping with self-Awareness. So that whole section is so that the parent or the caretaker or the grandparent, the aunt, uncle, friend, whoever wants to help, right?
[00:31:34] Can just pause a little bit and check in with themselves because you've gotta actually understand where you are coming from to do any of. These things that I'm suggesting. Well, right. So to use communication skills, they're hard to use. If you're completely burned out, if you are like so terrified, you can't regulate yourself, or you're so furious, you can't regulate yourself.
[00:31:58] Right. . Yeah. So we, we wanna help people like understand themselves and then also understand. Really their values so that they can be like, Okay, I'm having this, a difficult conversation with my kid that I'm not happy about. Like I don't like what they're doing, but my value is I wanna stay connected to my kid.
[00:32:19] So I'm gonna maybe bite my tongue a little bit here because I'm trying to stay connected to my kid who's getting further and further away from me. Right. I'm gonna, Bite some of my words, keep them inside so that I can have this conversation so I can get some more information out of them. Um, they can't do that if they don't know where they're starting, you know, in terms of like, should I even be having this conversation right now with my kid?
[00:32:39] I'm, I, I maybe shouldn't, maybe somebody else should because I'm so upset. Um, you know, maybe I'm not the person. You know, like really being creative and flexible with yourself in terms of what you can actually. Do. Um, but then in terms of your original question of like, are there things to convey that you don't, you're not condoning something to just be honest of like, I'm just, I just wanna understand it.
[00:33:03] I wanna understand, I care about you. I wanna, I wanna understand you, I wanna understand what you're experiencing and how it makes you feel. I don't, you know, I don't like it. Um, but I love you and I wanna understand you. Um, so, and just. Having that conversation, right? You don't have to do anything about it in that conversation.
[00:33:23] You can walk back and talk to your partner or talk to their co-parent or somebody else who cares about them with new information about your kid, . Yeah. That you can then decide what you wanna do with um, you know, and you could go back the next day and be like, I totally appreciate that. It helps you be less anxious.
[00:33:40] I don't want you to use substances to deal with your anxiety. So let's start talking about how else can we deal with your anxiety. Um, cuz using substances is, We don't do that in this household, you know? And if you do come home and you're high, this is gonna be the consequence, you know? So you can still give them the consequence associated with the substance use, but you're gonna do it in advance.
[00:34:00] You're gonna do it with them feeling like you understand it. You're not just taking it away because whatever, like you actually understand where they're coming from and validation matters a lot. We need to get buy in from somebody. If you've kind of said, I get you. I see you. and I wanna help you do this thing that you're trying to do not so well , and you're offering to help that just is going to, they're gonna be more likely to come over and spend time, you know, consider this.
[00:34:28] Whereas if you're just saying, Don't do that, stop it, then I'm gonna be mad at you until you do. Um, there's just not, there's not a lot. There's nowhere to go. In that space, right? Correct. Whatever except disconnection, and the kid probably saying, Okay, I'm just gonna hide it more from you. Right,
[00:34:48] Brenda: right. I'm gonna get better at hiding it.
[00:34:49] Yeah, it feels like a cul-de-sac where you just keep going around and around and around in the same conversation over and over and over. Um, which I fully admit I did for a long time.
[00:35:01] Dr. Carrie: Um, I'll go on the record of saying I do this myself. You know, I have like, Somebody I love very much who like in spite of what I do and in spite of everything, Is a very heavy cigarette smoker.
[00:35:15] It upsets me so much and I get like, I will like lose all my skills. You know, like when I, I like, I try, I do it, I like talk to her and we do all sorts of things and then I'll just yell at her, you know, I'm like, Bra, are you doing what you're doing? You know, like, so I, I, it's easy for me to say all of these things.
[00:35:31] Um, and we all lose our cool. Um, and we all get our feelings. Get the best of us. And. To be able to take that big deep breath and be like, Okay, it just scares me. I love this person. It scares me, and I'm gonna try next time I talk to her, I'm not gonna yell and I'm gonna try to go back to using my skills and I'll do that successfully.
[00:35:50] You know? So I think everybody just knowing like. Have some compassion for the fact that this is actually really hard to do, um, and, and all the emotion comes out of the fact that it's scary to, to have somebody that you love hurt themselves. Um, it's really, really scary. Um, and that's, that's what's at the core of all of this.
[00:36:10] It
[00:36:11] Brenda: is fear. Fear really sits up. The, the core. And it's really nice to hear from you , that you struggle as well, that it's not just those of us who are out here, kind of like muddling our way through it. Um, so even PhDs have like a little bit of humanness than when it comes
[00:36:31] Dr. Carrie: to this. Right. Write five more books about this and I'd probably still yell at her.
[00:36:36] Yeah.
[00:36:36] Brenda: Well, it, it is. And um, and I like what you said about the. The help, the section in the, this new workbook, which will make sure that we put a link to in the show notes about the self-awareness, because I think that's a piece that gets missed a lot. I think we focus a lot on, Okay. At least the moms and and dads that I work with, they're very good at research and usually when they learn, just like if it, if there was some rare genetic disease that my kid got diagnosed with, You're gonna start learning everything you can about that disease.
[00:37:11] And so you do a deep dive on your research. You kind of become like an FBI agent and you learn a lot. And then you immediately wanna go into action. So then you learn all these tools and skills of like, I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna do that. And we miss that little chunk. And it's not little, I shouldn't
[00:37:28] Dr. Carrie: say it's little.
[00:37:29] It's the biggest chunk.
[00:37:30] Brenda: Yes. And so I, I'm glad that you mentioned that and. Also, how was it difficult, cuz I don't know if when you guys wrote the workbook, if you're wanting people to go through it, like in order, like how do you decide, is understanding more important than the awareness piece, more important than the action piece?
[00:37:50] Or is it kind of like soup and you can pick and choose what you do? Like what's your advice as far as using the material?
[00:38:00] Dr. Carrie: In this workbook? Um, well, if you look in the workbook, the invitation changes actually around a wheel. Mm-hmm. , um, with different spokes of the wheel of all these different sections.
[00:38:09] And right smack in the middle of it is something that we call practice, which like, so that's the hub. Um, and really just saying to people like, you know, yourself, Right. Like if you slow down for a second, you, you probably know what you struggle with. Um, and we always say like, and you just said it, your instinct is to jump into action mode, right?
[00:38:31] Just go right to the action. Parents always just tell me what to do. You know, I have a mom who I work with and I love her. Every single phone call. She says, What do I do? And I say, I mean, literally you could record this phone call. Um, and it would be the same every single time. She says, What do I do? And I say, You're already doing it.
[00:38:50] You're already doing it every day. You're doing it. and we're just gonna keep doing it, right? We literally have this conversation again and again and again, but that's her anxiety saying, What do I do? And I'm always trying to bring her back to like being compassionate for herself. Like, you know, just like under, what's the problem today that you're trying to work on?
[00:39:11] Break it down into a smaller chunk. Um, and so ideally, I think most people need to start with the helping with understanding, you know, because. Taking action if you don't under, And that's why we did the Invitation to Change, because Learning Craft is taking action. But that was what we were realizing is that there's, it's hard for people to really buy into using reinforcement if you understand addiction through a particular land.
[00:39:36] It's because it make for all that language that you just said of like, it makes me feel like. Be nice is enabling like, you know, like if I'm nice, I'm doing something bad, um, because I should be punishing or confronting the problem, right? So we really need to shift your understanding of the problem first.
[00:39:52] Um, and that happens in the helping with understanding and the helping with self-awareness section, um, so that you can then use the action skills. , like effectively, um, you'll, you will be effective in using those skills if those two other are a little bit under your belt. Um, you know, and, and then you can just like work your way around the wheel because you may like be like, Okay, I'm using communication skills, it's going great, and we just got in a huge fight and I feel terrible.
[00:40:18] Um, and they said horrible things to me. I don't want anything to do with them. if you've done some self-awareness work, you know, like, okay, I actually need to take a little break. , I probably need to go cool off. I should stop having this conversation. I'm gonna go take care of myself for a little bit and try to come back at a later date when I've got some more gas in my gas tank.
[00:40:36] Um, yeah, the, the other thing that we added, um, because it's not in craft, is, um, Self-compassion. So those of you who know craft, Yeah, Ralph talks a lot about self care, which is super important. Um, you cannot do, you cannot be effective helper if you're not taking care of yourself. That's like, should be the golden rule.
[00:40:56] It's the hardest thing to do. Its so hard, um, for lay people and professionals. So that's standard. Um, I think there's something profoundly different from self-compassion than self care, and I don't think you can actually do self care care well. If you have not really worked on compassion, um, because like to really be able to be kind to yourself when you screw up, when you don't have the right answer, when you don't know what you're doing, you know, like to, just, that's internal softness of, okay, like I, I'm really hurting right now, or I'm suffering, or how can I be kind to myself?
[00:41:35] Because I just didn't handle that well. Um, because if you're kind to yourself and are able to be like, Okay, I didn't handle that well, let me go back to practicing versus the inner critic version of it, which is like, Ugh, I can't do this. I'm a terrible parent. I'm like, you know, like all that. Cuz the heartbreaking thing when we do our trainings is like when you, when parents start to.
[00:41:56] About what's in their head, about how they feel about themselves. It's so freaking painful. It makes me wanna cry every time. Um, it's be because, and, you know, they've actually done studies. Addiction is a stigmatized problem, so the person with the problem feels bad about themselves. Their family members feel just as bad, if not worse.
[00:42:16] And parents walk around thinking, I caused that somehow. Yeah, it happened in my house. So it's my problem. I must be doing something. Um, you know, and I. I mean, it, it's just not a helpful, That's just you, You can't go anywhere good, um, for yourself or your loved one if that's where you're coming from. And it's an understandable reaction.
[00:42:40] So we need to build compassion, um, for, and one of the things I say to the parents I work with, I'm like, So I went to school for this. I get supervision for this, I get training for this. I still have a really hard time. It's really hard. My job is really scary. My job is, makes me really mad sometimes. I get really frightened sometimes and I've got tons of training and, and.
[00:43:01] All this other stuff. Right? And I still really struggle. You didn't go to school for any of it? Nobody. There's, you didn't get a handbook on how to deal with this. Like, so can you like actually be kind of, kind to yourself right now and give yourself permission to be like, Oh, I actually just don't know how to deal with this.
[00:43:17] Let me learn some skills. Yeah. Let me practice. Um, let me try something new. You know, even though kind of skeptical it's gonna work, um, you know, we just have such a, there's something about. Feeling like it's okay to learn new things around addiction. Like everybody just feels like I just have to know the right thing and just do it right now.
[00:43:35] And if, and they gotta go to rehab. And if they go to rehab, they'll be, Well, no, they won't be . Um, they won't be sorry. They might take the first step. You know, which the, the practice idea, I think is the other really important. Um, you know, of course it's in craft because the idea of practice is just a good old fashioned cognitive be able strategy, right?
[00:43:57] Like, we don't learn new things unless we practice. But it's really the combination of compassion and practice. Um, because you'll love the one's gonna, as they make changes, you're gonna have topa have compassion for them too. They're gonna have setbacks. You know, one of the things I say about when somebody returns to old behavior, it's.
[00:44:13] Like, what was it about the new behavior that you didn't know how to do? Like you couldn't keep doing it? Um, you know, and what was so comfortable about the old behavior that got you go, got you to go back to it, right? So people instantly identify that space and time is like, they're not serious about it.
[00:44:28] They didn't really want it, you know, they just wanna keep using. There's all sorts of explanations for that, right? The reality is like there was something about the new behavior that they couldn't keep doing and there was something about the old behavior that was really compelling and took them back to it.
[00:44:42] So if we can pause and be like, Okay, let's be curious about that space. What was happening? Um, Then there's something to talk about. And then you can pick up the learning process again and be like, Oh, you didn't actually know how to handle that. You thought you did, but you didn't know how to handle it. So what skills do you need to keep learning so that you can go back to that and do it differently the next time you're approached to it?
[00:45:02] Um, so it just, it just, it just creates a space for learning and sobriety or. Abstinence or whatever goal you have, that is a learned behavior. It takes practice, it takes time. You're gonna have setbacks, um, because it's a bunch of new behavior. You know, they've gotta learn how to take care of themselves differently.
[00:45:21] They've gotta learn how to be social differently. They've gotta. Bazillion things I've gotta learn how to do differently. And we just like, if we just approach it with, you have to stop using everybody's set up for failure. .
[00:45:33] Brenda: Right, right. I really love those questions, um, that you had about what, what was it about the new behavior that you couldn't do?
[00:45:42] Is that how you, I'm just thinking parents could actually use this language and do you find. When you're talking with somebody who's struggling and who's pot like relapsed in that situation, can they articulate that? Are they, are they pretty aware usually?
[00:45:57] Dr. Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, if you've kind of created a, a space where they feel like, cuz I'll say like, okay, so what was, what was going on?
[00:46:04] Like, who were you with? What were the circumstances? How were you feeling? How were you feeling in your body? What were your thoughts? You know, I'm just like curious about the whole thing. Um, you know, because there's, there's lots of little triggers and those triggers may have gone. Weeks before, you know, I haven't slept well in two weeks.
[00:46:21] You know, I had three fights with my girlfriend. My friend Joe randomly texted me and said, Hey, you wanna go hang out? You know, so it could be a bunch of different little things that at any given moment they didn't realize was leading them right back. To go in and hanging out with Joe and taking an oxy.
[00:46:37] Um, you know, had I asked them five days out, they may not have even been fully aware of it, but it was all kind of piling up. So, you know, when you're at the end of when it's happened and you're kind of picking up afterwards, and to just be curious about that, okay, like, what did we miss? You know, do you need to work on your sleep more?
[00:46:54] You know, is like being sleep deprived, something that constantly sets you up for. Throwing in the towel. Um, you know, do you actually have insomnia we need to work on? Um, you know, or what's going on with that relationship? Do we need to work on that relationship more? Help you communicate differently so that you're not fighting all the time.
[00:47:10] Whatever. There's, so then there's all these things that we can help them get better at, um, that then keep them from getting so stressed that they end up going back to the substance that makes it all go away.
[00:47:22] Brenda: Right. That makes so much sense when you just said that, because what you're doing is you're going back.
[00:47:27] Resolving the problem versus the solution, which is the substance, cuz it's like, that's what I go back to, to solve the problem. So if you just wanna take that away, you've missed the underlying actual reason why. Yes. All kinds of light bulbs going off over here. Um, so thank you for all of that. Uh, one thing that I would love to ask you, and I've asked a couple of other craft people this, um, so I'm always curious to hear the answer.
[00:47:56] Which is in a, in a co-parenting relationship, whether they're married or divorced or whatever. One will be on board with the craft approach and with the invitation to change and the understanding and all that. And one is not, they're like, Nope. They just need to be disciplined more. They need to be, we need to be more strict.
[00:48:18] We need to, you know, take away more technology or whatever it is. And so the parents end up with all of this friction and fighting. And dad's doing one thing and mom's doing another thing and the kid is looking like, what the heck is going on? Um, and when I say kid, it could be a 15 year old or it could be a 25 year old.
[00:48:38] It doesn't matter. Cause it's what, what, what do we do, Carrie? Come on and help us out. .
[00:48:44] Dr. Carrie: Well, um, I don't know. Like, so that is part of why. Added all that stuff to craft, um, because that was a big piece of like, to pick up craft and to just be like, Let's use reinforcement. Let's use communication, whatever. If again, if you've got a, if you've got a.
[00:49:04] Different version of what addiction is, in your mind, you're not gonna do that. One parent might be like, Yeah, this makes perfect sense. You know, and the other parent's like, no, like you need to kick him in the butt and like, whatever. Right? So the helping with understanding section is designed to kind of like diffuse some of that and really be like, okay, you're wanting to, wanting to punish and challenge this.
[00:49:26] Read the behaviors make sense section. Does, does this make sense to you? There's usually light bulbs that go off and are like, Oh, okay. Like, Oh, you know, or the one size doesn't fit. You know, there's usually some kind of awareness of like, Oh, this, maybe if I approached it in this different way. Right. Um, the another question I always ask is, is this working for you guys?
[00:49:48] You know, like, like is the battle of who's doing it? Right? Do you feel like that's working for you as a couple and as it working for your kid? Right? Cause if it is, keep doing it right. You wouldn't be. Here you're thinking about talking about it if you thought it was working so well, , you know, and like, so can you just, I it's also usually really helpful for people to just reflect on why are we so polarized?
[00:50:12] You know, like, and like, is there a way to come? Cuz when, whenever I say a couple that's incredibly polarized, I usually say to them, Both of you have strengths and weaknesses and if we could get you a little to the middle, you know, where the, the tough one. Given a little bit more credit to the one who wanted to be soft, and then the soft one was actually given some credit to the one who wanted to hold the limits a little bit firmer.
[00:50:39] The reality is it's probably smack in the middle between the two of you, the perfect blend. But if you're just gonna lock each other in each other's respective corners, your relationship is gonna continue to suffer and your kid's not gonna get better. Yes. Um, which goes back to the values piece, like you, you guys as a couple, like, or as a diet or as a family trying to help somebody, like assess your values.
[00:51:02] Do you guys have the same values? Mm. Cause if you do, it can be helpful to just be like, are we all working towards our values or are we. just protecting our corner. Um, you know, so Val, understanding of values and talking about values can also diffuse that a little bit. Um, you know,
[00:51:18] Brenda: those are good ideas.
[00:51:19] Yeah.
[00:51:19] Dr. Carrie: I like the, the odds working and odds are both of you love your kid and want your kid to be well, like, so you have the same value. So why are you like dismissing each other's approach? Like you both care about your kid, Like can you come together in your approach? Um, That's what's actually gonna help your kids
[00:51:37] Right, right. You know, sometimes people can't do it so well. Um, and then it's just like, if, then it goes back to you if you're the person who's trying to use these skills, just centering yourself and being like, I can't control my loved one. Can't actually control it. I'm gonna do my very best and be my very best version of myself, cuz that's all I can control.
[00:51:58] We spend a lot of time trying to control each other. Yes. Um, you know, and wanting each other to be different and we get out of looking at ourselves. Like, just look at yourself and be your best version of yourself and try to do what you're doing with your kid. And that will have some impact down the road.
[00:52:13] Yeah. Might be really painful in the moment. It'll, Right. It'll matter later.
[00:52:18] Brenda: It does. And, and it takes time. And it's the last kind of thing I'd love to ask before we wrap up is, um, this does take time. So there's nothing that just, you know, we live in a microwave world, Right? We just, we want everything to happen overnight because pretty much anything can happen overnight.
[00:52:34] Right? I order my rare coffee beans and they show up on my doorstep tomorrow and it's like amazing. Um, This isn't like that we wish it would be, especially because of the urgency that a lot of parents feel with Fentanyl in the market the way it is. They are like, No, I need, I need this to happen tomorrow.
[00:52:55] And so maybe you could just talk a little bit about what you see when a family really dials this in, really starts using these practices and these approaches. Knowing that it isn't gonna happen tomorrow, that it does take some time. And how do we stay sane in that in between time as we start changing the way that we're interacting with our kids and our kids are probably like, What's going on with my parents?
[00:53:25] Weird. Something's really strange. I don't know what's happening, but my parents are changing. Um, and, and while we're maybe not seeing change, How do we know if we're doing it wrong or if it's just taking time? . You know what I mean?
[00:53:41] Dr. Carrie: But, uh, yes. And there's no easy answer to that. Sorry, . It's darn got nothing to say there.
[00:53:47] Um, no, I mean that just, that's the big self-compassion component of this, of like to just, of course you're scared and you're gonna be scared the whole time. Really, you're gonna be scared the whole time. Um, and that's just a part of it. Um, part of what we added is this idea of willingness of, yeah, this is hard.
[00:54:06] Um, and if you wanna be an effective helper and if you want things to change, um, just knowing that, that discomfort of all those questions you ask, like, am I doing it right? What if something bad happens in the meantime? Like all these things, right? Like you can. Just eliminate that anxiety to be able to have that anxiety and bring it along with you while you do these skills, while you learn new things, , while you just keep working it through.
[00:54:32] Um, you know, and just having some compassion for yourself that it's a lot to take on. The desire to have things resolve quickly like that, going back to that fear, that's a hundred percent just coming out of fear. and it's a hundred percent understandable. And then you ask yourself, are the strategies that I'm using where I'm acting really quickly and I'm being really demanding, or I'm confronting, Just ask yourself if they're working.
[00:54:57] If they are, great, if they're not, and you're getting further away from your kid and your kids going underground. What's the harm in trying these new things? Exactly. Right. So, Exactly. But, but that's a lot to regulate. Um, you know, I mean, that's a lot to take on emotionally. Um, but I say to people all the time, You're, you're already swimming in the emotions.
[00:55:17] You already got the emotions. Yeah. Can you bring them along with you? and try to take care of yourself in the while you're trying to help your loved one. And I think most parents who just at the end of the day feel like, you know what? I really was doing my best. Um, and I, I have unfortunately have worked with several parents who have lost their kids.
[00:55:35] Um, and they, they have said I was doing the best I could. Yeah.
[00:55:41] Brenda: And I've tried everything instead of Yeah. Instead of just subscribing to one particular.
[00:55:47] Dr. Carrie: And I, you know, we, we had this one woman who, um, she started learning these skills probably about six months before her daughter overdosed. Um, and she said like, it was, my daughter still died, but the six months I had with her where we were actually talking, Like best gift, you know?
[00:56:05] So it's like that's a tragic story and horrible. But she had six months of connection to her daughter that she did not have prior. I think at the end of the day, just feeling like I'm connected to my kid and connected to this person that I love, that will always win. Yeah.
[00:56:20] Brenda: Well that is a really good point.
[00:56:22] So thank you for all of this. And we're gonna link in the show notes if you're listening. It's The Beyond Addiction Workbook, Family and Friend for Family and Friends. And so I know you're probably heard me say it 4,000 times by now, but it's the book you want. And this workbook is awesome cuz it's filled with like worksheets and you know, things that you can actually do, which I think.
[00:56:47] you know, if you are feeling like, Oh gosh, I really want something to change quickly, at least this gives you like activities to do. It's awesome . Like you can keep yourself busy with the, with all the worksheets and the activities. I have the intention . Yes. So we will link to that in the show notes so you can get that and appreciate you being here and taking time.
[00:57:07] Dr. Carrie: I and you so much. Um, and. Sending all sorts of compassion out to all the people that listen to your show. Oh,
[00:57:13] Brenda: thank you. I'll deserve it. Yes, definitely. All right, well thanks. We will talk with you again soon.
[00:57:20] Dr. Carrie: Okay.
[00:57:22] Brenda: Okay, that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to brenda zane.com/podcast.
[00:57:31] All of the episodes are listed there, and you can also find curated playlists there, so that's very helpful. You might also wanna download a free ebook I wrote, it's called Hindsight. Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are, and importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy.
[00:58:00] This rough time. You can grab that free from brenda zane.com/hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it, and I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself and back here next week.