her lived experience with addiction helped create an urban model for holistic, community-based young adult treatment, with the Dorm’s Amanda Fialk
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Guest: Amanda Fialk, Clinical Director of The Dorm
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This episode is supported by The Stream. You might be wondering who else is listening to this podcast and dealing with the same kinds of issues you are. You may also want to go beyond the podcast and dive deeper into the subjects with other moms who get it.
The Stream is the place where all of that happens. It’s a modern, online space where moms who have kids struggling with substance use and addiction issues focus on their own health, wellness, and sanity. There’s no judgment and no drama (it's not on Facebook), and our community is based on positive thinking and learning CRAFT skills. We have weekly events, a book club, yoga classes, workshops, expert guest speakers, and supportive conversations.
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About this episode:
One of the biggest challenges young people who are misusing drugs and alcohol face is identifying the plan for transitioning back to the “real world” post-treatment. Young people can become vulnerable because they feel they don’t belong anywhere as they start to rebuild a new and different life that doesn’t involve substances. If they aren’t ready to hold down a job or enroll in college, where do they go? How do they spend their time without getting into trouble?
In this episode, I’m joined by Amanda Fialk, the Chief Clinical Officer of the Dorm, a safe place for young adults to find community and gain skills and tools to become independent as they seek to find their place in the world after treatment for substance use and mental health challenges. Amanda has worked hard to build in aspects of outpatient treatment that she saw were missing from her own experience.
The difference young people find at The Dorm is the holistic approach to support services and an urban, “real world” environment that still offers guidance and nurturing. Young adults receive access to long-term support as it relates to their clinical, academic, health, and nutritional needs, just to name a few. Join us as Amanda shares what a typical day at the Dorm looks like and how this model is changing lives daily.
Episode resources
Check out The Dorm Website
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Brenda: Hello, this is Hopestream -the podcast for parents of teens and young adult kids who are misusing drugs or alcohol and struggling with mental health issues. If that sounds like you, then you are in the right place and you're in good company.
I'm your host Brenda Zane. I'm a parent who could relate. And that's why I created this space. So you can learn, feel supported and just exhale. As you ride the roller coaster with your child, you can learn more about me and the way I serve parents, like you at my website, Brenda, zane.com. Welcome back or welcome here.
If you're new to Hopestream. I always like to do a quick check-in before we dive into the conversation. And I think it's really important because I have a pretty good idea of what life might look like for you right now. And there's a good chance you are running at full tilt. Managing 400 things at the same time, navigating some pretty intense situations with your son or daughter, and likely also managing a career, other kids, a relationship, and possibly caring for your parents or your in-laws as well.
And of course, don't forget the dogs and cats and other pets in your life who need looking after. And yeah, you could probably use some food and a nap. So this is the time where you can just take a moment and breathe, fill your water bottle, drop your shoulders down and rest. You might listen on a walk or a bike, or while you're sitting in traffic.
And I really admire you for tuning in it means you're truly looking for ways to keep yourself healthier. And also get some insight about ways that you might be able to help your son or daughter. There's a common feeling I hear parents talk about. And one that I had when my son was in his darker days, and that is the feeling like your child might be in this lifestyle forever, that they're in so deep.
They might not be able to make their way out or that they've done so much damage to their body and their brain. You're not sure that they'll ever be able to function at a high level in life or in a career. Well, I'm sure my guest today probably had parents thinking the same thing when they saw their daughter at a very young age using substances and into her twenties, they probably didn't predict that she was gonna end up with not only a master's degree, but also a doctoral degree in social work.
and would go on to become a licensed clinical social worker and partner and chief clinical officer of a multi-state treatment program. I'm always very curious to learn how someone goes from the dark and scary place of substance use to these kinds of careers. So I sat down with Amanda Falk about her journey and to learn more about the program that she helps head up today, the dorm.
Amanda has specialized training in D B T C B T addiction and co-occurring disorders, eating disorders, family therapy, EMDR, and motivational interviewing. She's a member of the national association of social workers and the New York academy of medicine and an adjunct professor at words, Weiler school of social work.
She was a competitive figure skater growing up and is a United States figure skating association, gold medalist. Amanda loves all sports. However, she is a huge New York ranger hockey fan, and she's also an avid CrossFitter. She lends a genuinely personal and empathetic perspective to her role as the chief clinical officer at the dorm.
Which is a program on the upper west side of New York city and in Washington, DC, that works specifically with young adults. And those young adults are all working toward developing healthy independence and transitioning into adulthood, which we know is extremely challenging for these kids. When they have substance use challenges.
I'm excited for you to hear from Amanda, whom I think will really encourage you to continue to see all the positive things that can come in the future. Despite some real struggles that our kids have with substance use and mental health. So take a listen, take some notes. If that's helpful for you and I will meet you on the other side.
Enjoy. Amanda. I'm so thrilled to have this chance to sit down with you and just talk about young people and you know what you're seeing at the dorm. And I just love talking with people who are in the day to day, cuz I'm day to day with the parents. I'm not day to day with kids. Um, and young people. When I say kids, I always, I always feel like I need to qualify that, but so welcome to the podcast and I look forward to having this
Amanda: chat.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me here. Yeah, I would
Brenda: love to have you just give a little bit of context for folks, um, to understand a little bit about you, maybe what made you interested in, in working in this field and sort of how you got to doing what you're doing today?
Amanda: Absolutely. To, to keep it real simple and to sum it up.
I got, uh, interested in working in this field because I. A teenager who struggled with being a teenager and a young adult who struggled with being a young adult. And I had my own personal journey with, uh, recovering from mental health concerns and substance use disorder. and, you know, I was, I was super lucky to have support, to have access to resources and to be able to embrace a, a program of recovery that was life changing for me prior to, uh, going away to rehab for the last time.
The time when I got sober, uh, I was actually in law. And thought that I was going to be a lawyer. And when I was in rehab, I was 22 years old and I was too old to be. The teenagers, the adolescents, and they didn't have, at that time, a young adult specific program. So I was with the adults, which was fine. Um, and I met some other young adults who were my age, but the majority of the people that I was surrounded by were significantly when I say significantly at the time, it felt like they were so old, they were 45.
Right. But they, they certainly. Older than me and in a different space in life. And one of my, my clinicians there. Asked me. She said, you know, how would you like to go down to the adolescent unit and speak to them about your experience and, and share your experience with them and, and share your journey with them.
I was certainly in a very different place at that point in my life. And I was when I was 16 and I said, sure. And, and I went to the unit almost on a daily basis and spoke to the teenagers and. I, I remember the feeling that I had when I spoke to them. And I, I, I knew, I, I just knew that my purpose, I was meant to go through everything that I went through in order to be able to, to give back and, and to share my experience.
Uh, I knew what it was like to be 16 and not wanna get sober and not wanna get help and not wanna ask for help. And. I, I would go as far as to say that I got more out of speaking to them than they got out of listening to me, but it certainly set me up for a career change. And when I left rehab, I decided not to go back to law school and instead to focus on myself for some time and then eventually.
Go back to school and pursue education that would enable me to become a, a clinician working with this specific population.
Brenda: Wow. I bet your parents are so happy. so, cuz I always look at this through the lens of the people that we're kind of circling around you. And I know the fear that lives in the heart of the parent of the 16 year old and then.
And now as the mom of a, of a young adult who struggled and is now working with other people who are struggling, it just fills your heart so much because at the time, and I don't know, maybe you have insight as to how your parents felt. Um, and I was just chatting with a bunch of our members this morning who have, you know, 16, 17 year olds.
And they're like, is this ever gonna end? Like, are. Ever gonna figure this out because it doesn't feel like it at the time. So I just love your story because it just shows you never know what the Intercept's gonna be. That mm-hmm that changes somebody. Is there anything that you. Remember, that kind of clicked with you when you were in treatment or like, sometimes it can just be that conversation with somebody at a coffee shop too.
Right. It's like it, you never know what that's gonna be, but I'm curious to know if there's anything that you remember as being a, a little bit of a turning point for you.
Amanda: Yeah, that's a really important question. And I think that if you ask a hundred different people in recovery, that same question, you would probably get a lot of different answers for me.
I, I think that there's generally speaking, especially with this age group, there's a difference between. The step that a person has to take to get sober, and then what a person has to do to stay sober. And for me, and this was just my journey and it's not a journey that I would. Recommend. Um, and in fact, when I work with young people, I highly advise a against this.
I, I look at, um, this concept of hitting bottom of, of, of an addict or an alcoholic or somebody who struggles with an eating disorder needing to hit. Bottom before they get better as a very, it's a very dangerous concept. And yeah, it's not even a concept. I mean, in no other field, like if, if somebody had an injury, like a sports injury, nobody would say, let's wait until your bone is broken in 10 different places before we fix it.
Right? No, like you intervene when there's like a slight little fracture so that the injury doesn't have to become. So debilitating. And I think it's the same thing for mental health concerns there's and, and substance use disorders. If you can envision an elevator, you know, that the elevator is going down, you know, that the basement floor has been hit.
So the elevator's gonna go to the basement. Knowing that it's gonna go there. You can actually get off at the fifth floor or the sixth floor and say, you know what? I've had enough. I don't need to go to the basement before I get off this elevator. And it's my job as a, as a clinician to try to elevate that, that bottom because the basement is.
Jails institutions and death. And, and, and we don't want that for people, for me, unfortunately, you know, I, I did have a near death experience and, uh, I was scared. I was desperate and that's when I was able to say, okay, I need help. I don't, I'm not getting sent away this time. I'm asking to be sent away, but that only takes you so far that fear, especially for people with a substance use disorder, we have a short term memory.
like, you can forget how. Bad it got and then like selected amnesia sets in. So that might have gotten me sober, but I would say if you ask me what, what kept me sober and unequivocally, without a doubt, I will say that meeting and connecting with other young people, my age in recovery, learning to have fun understanding.
There are tons of other 20 year olds in this world who are sober. And who know how to have fun while they're sober and still have a life and are still cool and still get to do all the things that a 20 year old should be able to do. That's what kept me sober, because that was my greatest fear is if I do this, does that mean I'm just gonna be sitting home alone on a Friday night for the rest of my life, doing nothing and you don't get sober.
To be bored and miserable when you're using you're bored and miserable at the end, at least you wanna get sober and stay sober to, to have a life. So connecting and meeting those peers and actually. Know, embracing this lifestyle and learning how to have fun in recovery that I would say above everything else that, that connection, um, I would say is what, what kept me sober the therapy, you know, all of that, the CBT, the DBT, that was all super important that gave me skills, but the buy-in and the continued buy-in was the connect.
Brenda: Yeah, I can see that because who, like you said, who wants to sit around? And, and I, I think this is a really important insight that you just provided because a lot of times. You know, as parents were like, you know, you have to stop everything and be a hundred percent sober for the rest of your life. And if you're not then providing what that can look like in a positive light.
Well, that doesn't sound very fun to 18, 19, 20 year old, like who wants to do that? So, um, and what I hear too, and why I'm really excited to, to learn more. Some of the things that you guys do there is, it's hard sometimes to find that group of cool young people who are still going to music festivals who are still going on camping trips, who are still like doing all of that stuff, but doing it without getting high first.
Cuz that seems to be the trend. At least this is what I hear from the young people in my life is, oh yeah. Like, they'll go, you know, my friends will go hiking, but they all get high first. And I just think, man, that's a really hard environment to be in. If you're the one who's saying no, I'm good. You know, to, to do that in the, for the long term has gotta be pretty challenging.
Amanda: No, absolutely. Uh, and that's not to say that all of your friends need to be people in however, having a cohort of people who really get it and understand. The journey and all of the feelings and the rollercoaster associated with that journey, I think is, is pretty, pretty vital to the process. Uh, yeah. And yes, to your point, you know, especially with somebody who's a teenager, young adult, uh, forever, it's a really long time and can feel really overwhelming.
So we don't, we don't need to talk. Forever. Uh, we need to talk about, you know, today, and then tomorrow we can talk about tomorrow. And then as those days build up into weeks and months and years, then it just becomes ingrained. And part of, um, a new lifestyle that has been created. Yeah.
Brenda: So that's quite a story.
So you decide not gonna do law school. I'm gonna go this other route instead. What did that look like to go from their kind of, you know, coming out of treatment, finding this new life? Of recovery, which I, I always like to distinguish, um, being sober from being in recovery, cuz I've heard from people that they're very different.
You're not white knuckling it every day. Like, oh, you're just loving life. The way it is. How do you then come to the dorm and doing what you're doing today? Yeah,
Amanda: absolutely. So I, I, I wanna really emphasize that. I, I took some time, uh, to just focus on myself before, uh, embarking on a whole new
Brenda: career path.
That's quite a, that's quite a path.
Amanda: Yeah. And also, you know, many people who struggle with addiction and mental, um, uh, Lean in the more impulsive direction. So it's important to retrain yourself to be mindful, to give time time, and to really, you know, think, think things through before just taking action.
And I really needed time to just focus on myself and to figure out. Who am I cause for so long who I was, was so intertwined with my identity as somebody who used substances that, right. I, I didn't really know who I was without that. I didn't know what I really liked what I was good at, what I didn't like, who I like, like it was, it was really discovering myself again.
Yeah. Uh, For the first time in a, in a very, very long time. And I took that year to do that. And I remember getting a job waiting tables and just going to a ton of 12 step meetings, making a ton of friends in the city, in New York city, going to a lot of young people's meetings, going to the sober ski houses and the sober beach houses and, and really trying to.
This, this life in recovery and, and the new friends that I had made in figuring out who I was. And after about a year of that, I, I, I still felt that I really wanted to embark on this new career path. And that is when I decided to apply to schools and to start my education. And I always, I, I, I went in to.
Uh, getting my, my master's and later on my PhD, knowing that I wanted to work with the younger population with adolescents and with young adults. Uh, so I, I did have a little bit of tunnel vision in, in that sense. And I, I centered a lot of my studies around those specific populations. And when I graduated, I spent a lot of time working in outpatient programs and.
I, I, I loved the work. Uh, I, I absolutely loved the work. And at times I was really frustrated by the work because there was so much that I so much more that I wanted to do that wasn't possible in this sort of rigid outpatient model, where a client is either there for I O P. You know, two hours a day, three days a week, one hour, a day, three days a week or PHP, it was, it was very, um, just, just rigid.
And what was also very difficult is that we would get a lot of young people who were coming into outpatient programming, having completed a residential treatment or an inpatient treatment where they had 24 7 support. And then they would step into an outpatient program where they only really had support a couple hours a week, which is a huge transition, huge
Brenda: gap.
Yeah.
Amanda: Huge, huge gap. And we could do a lot of, a lot of great work while we were with them for those hours. But then. What happens when they go home, what happens when they go back into the community? And we weren't able to provide wraparound support during those times. And as a result of that, what, what I saw was a lot of recidivism, a lot of people who.
And we see it all the time. Like this revolving door out, they would be in an inpatient program. Do great, leave feeling really good, really confident do outpatient programming. And then there's just not enough support. So slowly some of the old behaviors and, and mindsets start creeping back in. There's a relapse.
They go away and it's, it's it's infuriating because. This revolving door of treatment can become a trauma in and of itself.
Brenda: Hi, I'm taking a quick break because I wanna let you know about the private online community I created and host for moms who have kids misusing drugs or alcohol. It's where I hang out between the episodes. So I wanted to share a little bit about it. This place is called the stream and it isn't a Facebook group it's completely private away from all social media sites.
Where you start to take care of yourself because through all of this who is taking care of you, the stream is a place where we teach the craft approach and skills to help you have better conversations and relationships, and we help you get as physically. Mentally and spiritually healthy as possible so that you can be even stronger for your son or daughter.
You can join us free for two weeks to see if it's the right kind of support for you and learn more about all the benefits that you get as a member at the stream, community.com. And I'll see you there. Now. Let's get back to the conversation.
Amanda: When I was working at, at one outpatient program, I, I met. An individual who had this idea for, for the dorm and, uh, John McGee, who is the CEO and founder of the dorm. And, you know, we talked about what it would be like to create a program that didn't have that rigidity and structure, an outpatient program that would enable either.
Children young adults coming from inpatient programs to have a softer landing that really set them up for success or B maybe provided a treatment option for young people that that could prevent them from needing to go to a residential program. Maybe it was intense enough for a period of time that they could stay in their communities and receive, you know, intensive treatment in that, in their, in their given communi.
And we really wanted our, our treatment to be located in urban environments. Because when you think about intensive treatment, you think about the woods. Yes. You think about Utah, you think about, you know, and our clients talk about it all the time. You know, going to the woods, going to the mountains, which is, is life saving and necessary for some, but for others, it's, it's not what speaks to their authentic self.
It's not, it doesn't feel affirming. It doesn't feel like the treatment that's going to be the, the best, uh, for them. So we wanted. And even if they go to the woods, if they're, if they live in New York city or if they live in Washington, DC, they have to come back to those and they want to come back to those cities anyway.
Yeah. So they need to learn how to navigate life there. So, so began the idea of, of the dorm and creating a truly creative, intense. And holistic treatment experience that looked at treatment as yes, occurring within a therapy room or within a group room. And we do tons of therapy. We do tons of groups, but also looked at how we could provide clinically informed coaching and services outside of a typical therapy or group room.
For instance, uh, if a client is really. Feeling overwhelmed with the idea of, um, getting a, a job and applying to jobs and handing out resumes. We can walk down the street with them. And join them in that process and walk them to the door of the coffee shop as they walk in and hand in their resume. Uh, if they're feeling like they wanna go to their first AA meeting, that they're scared to take the subway or the bus there alone, we will take the subway with, we go there together.
And providing opportunities on site for fun and for connection. So the schedule doesn't just consist of therapy and groups. It, it consists of clubhouse hours. We created this beautiful clubhouse where the clients can just come and hang out. There's ping pong. There's pool. Board games, there's projector screens so that they can connect with other young people who are struggling with similar issues as they struggled with, and then opportunities for more holistic approaches to the treatment of mental illness and of substance use disorder, yoga, mindfulness, meditation.
Art, uh, kickboxing, weightlifting, you know, all of those holistic methods work so beautifully for regardless of age, for, for anybody struggling with, with some of these symptoms and, and some of these diagnoses. I
Brenda: love that. It sounds like you've really sort of deconstructed what feels like it's been a really rigid pattern in the field and said, wait, what if we started with the person instead and figured out what they need and.
I like the idea of, um, of just having that space to hang out, because I know in being, from being the parent side, you just want one good friend. That's like, that's you, you spend hours and hours praying for that. Like, Could he, or she just have one good friend and one person who's a good influence. And they have to relearn how to just live.
Like you said, you took a full year to do that. And I think that I'm gonna go back to that in a second, cuz I think that's super important, but just to have a setting where you can do nothing or play ping pong or just be in a healthy setting. Huge like that. Um, it doesn't, it wouldn't sound huge to somebody who hadn't been through that situation.
But to know that there's a space where you can do that, where you're witnessing other people like, oh, okay, this is how you do life. Sober in recovery is really, really, really huge. And it sounds like you've just added in, it sounds like a lot, a lot, like the community we've created for moms where you're not just focusing on the treatment and you know, this D B, T or C B T.
It's the whole person. It's what you eat. It's how you move. It's all of those things. Um, but let's, I just wanna take one second and go back to your year. That you spent rediscovering and kind of being with yourself, because that is something that. From if, if people are listening and they're a parent can feel very confusing and frustrating to a parent to say, wait a minute, you just went through this treatment and that treatment.
And, you know, there's this huge financial investment. And. Now it's time to launch. And I think it's a really important insight to hear from you that, well, wait, wait, wait, I need a year or maybe it's longer or maybe it's shorter for some people to just figure out who I am without substances. Yeah. Yeah. And that's hu, I think that's just a really important insight.
Amanda: Yeah, I think that not only do parents struggle with that, but young people struggle with it as well. And I'll speak for myself and a lot of the clients that I, that I have worked with, uh, growing up in communities that felt like pressure cookers, where, uh, I mean, there's no like six year plan. You go to high school for four years, you go immediately to college and you must graduate in four years and then you either start working or you go immediately to some type of, you know, graduate program and then you immediately start working.
And if you fall behind or if you don't stay on that, Arbitrary timeline, then you're a failure, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how, that's how I always felt as a young person. Like if I don't stay on this and I'm, I'm behind, I'm a failure. And I think parents also feel that way as well. Like if their kid doesn't do it, but Johnny and Jack and Jill who live next door all did then does that mean I'm a bad parent?
Does that mean I did something wrong? I need to push them. Yes. I spend all this money on treatment, so you should get it. And now just go like be successful. And I don't wanna sound judge, but it's, it's not about being judge about people having those feelings. And it's important to remember that, uh, that type of mindset and that type of, of, of pressure.
Actually probably gonna have the opposite effect because if you jump back into the pool too quickly or into life too quickly, chances are it's gonna feel overwhelming and you're gonna have to go and redo a lot of what you just worked on you up saving even time by taking things slowly and at a pace that feels comfortable.
To, to who you are and what you are experiencing inside. And the, of the matter is by the time you're 40 years old or 45 years old, nobody cares if you graduated college in four years or five years, or even six years, nobody care. That just doesn't matter. What matters is that a person is healthy, that a person.
Happy. And that a, a person has is, is feeling like they're living a life that is fulfilling, and that is congruent with their authentic self and whatever parents can do to support that. And to accept that in their children will go a long, long way. And it doesn't mean that you have failed as a parent. If, if your child is, if your child's timeline is different than.
Our country says should be the norm. Right.
Brenda: Like you said, this arbitrary timeline that got made up somewhere along the line. Mm-hmm um, I'm curious what, and, and I'm, I'm sure the dorm would be a good resource if somebody's in one of your areas, but what could, uh, kind of scaffolding look like during that time for a young person?
Is it, cuz I imagine you don't wanna just like wing off on your own with no support, whether that's maybe meetings that you're going to or an outpatient, like what would you say should be some of the elements of that scaffolding during that time when you're like relearning, who are, who am I.
Amanda: I mean, I can speak a little bit to what, the way that we can conceptualize at at epiderm.
And then I think that can be applied. You, you, you can use that model in no, no matter where you are geographically, but, uh, First of all, it depends on what is going on with the individual. So we need to, and everybody should have a proper comprehensive bio, psychosocial, spiritual assessment to figure out, Hey, you know, where their strengths are, uh, and be where there's some areas of opportunity and where they really do need support.
Generally speaking. If somebody has just left a treatment facility where they have been receiving care 24 7, generally speaking, what I would advise for a young person is that they don't just jump back into school or work that they take some time. Away from it to just again, get adjusted to being, not in treatment because being in treatment is, um, it's, it's a very intense experience and a very safe experience.
It's like leaving the room basically, and to, uh, Use a period of time to, to, to really do some deep reflection and to do some solidification of all the skills that had been learned while you were away in real time in your natural environment. Cause it's one thing to practice. Um, deep breathing skills.
There are meditation skills when you're in. Uh, a wilderness program without any external distractions. It's another thing to practice your meditation skills when you're having a panic attack on a busy subway in the middle of New York city. Yes. Slightly more challenging difference in the latter. So most of our clients will start off receiving upwards of 30 hours a week of support.
Now what that support looks like is different. So basically it's their full-time job for the first. Month to three months after they've left treatment. So basically from nine in the morning till you know, six or so at night, they're engaged in activities that are purposefully purposeful and intentional, and that are taking them one step.
Farther along in their recovery process. So a schedule might look like starting off with breakfast at the clubhouse and a social group with peers, then going to D B T group, then going to a personal training session. Then again, free time in the clubhouse to engage with peers, then doing an individual session then going to volunteer group because we know that doing service is something.
Actually makes us feel better about ourselves than a family group than dinner with the community and a 12 step meeting. So it's a pretty structured and full day after about anywhere from a month to three months of being back at home, we say, let's make the less lesson Pence. And have you start doing more things outside of treatment?
Would you like to try to get a part-time job? Would you like to. One or two classes is a non matriculating student. Would you wanna do some volunteering outside of the treatment? So filling the schedule up. So there's still structure with healthy activities outside of treatment, and then decreasing the intensity of the treatment schedule.
Hold study there for a month or two. Then add even more activities outside of treatment and less activities in treatment. And over the course of the year, you, you continue with this trend so that as life and life gets more full outside of treatment and skills are being mastered outside of treatment.
Life inside of treatment gets less and less intense until they're at a place where they have their social. They might wanna do therapy once or twice a week, but they're back in school full time. They're working full time and they feel really good about their ability to navigate life on life's terms.
It's a
Brenda: process. Yeah, it is. It sounds kind of like a cross fade of, you know, we're FA we're ramping up this, we're ramping down that. And I know that there's a lot of ups and downs in that and some bumps along the way, but I like the idea of sort of, um, slowly undoing the scaffolding and having the person to be able to say.
Okay. I'm really loving the volunteering thing. Not ready to go get a job yet, but let's, let's maybe do more volunteering. And I, and we have parents in our community that have actually paid their kids for the volunteer hours, which I think is brilliant because. if they're not ready for a job. Cause there are a lot of job environments I'm sure you know, that are not healthy for somebody in recovery.
Right. And often those are the jobs that are easiest to get. And so it can be a little tricky if you've got somebody who's in that delicate stage and you're like, here, let me put you in the back of a kitchen where half the people are using substances in a restaurant, right. Or, or one of those situations is just, can be really, really challenging.
So I love the volunteering thing. That sounds really great. Mm-hmm. How do you, or do you see families where the young person is really resistant to this? Cause it's, you're rolling your eyes. Like, yeah, everybody, because I think that's, you know, Everything that you just said. Sounds so lovely. And so it makes so much sense.
And then we have these kids who come home from treatment and we're like, okay, here's all these great ideas. Like we could do this and there's this and that. And the kids like in their room won't come out. No, I I'm therapy out. I just spent three months here or whatever. I don't wanna do this. are there ideas of how to sort of like, get that train going again?
Because it sometimes can just like come to a screeching hall and it's like, I am done
Amanda: yeah. Yeah. I would say that probably 90% of the clients that we treat at the dorm. Are not walking in the door saying that they are super excited to see us or being treatment. That's not how they arrive right here. I
Brenda: am.
I'm so excited to be
Amanda: here. yeah, no, definitely not. And that's okay. Uh, by the time they leave, I think they have a very different perspective, but that is certainly not the way that they arrive and that's okay. And I always share with parents, cuz sometimes I'll hear with parents. I mean, there's no point of me having them go to the dorm or go to treatment if they don't wanna be there.
Cause if they don't want to be there, they're not gonna get anything out of it. And that's another one of those sort of statements or train of, of thinking about substance use treatment, mental health treatment that I think is dangerous because you, you don't have to be, you don't have to totally want to.
Treatment for treatment to eventually work. And if you wait until the person wants to get treatment, it, it might be too late because of what a bottom can look like. I don't want to go to the dentist ever. and I still get something out of, of, of, of going. So it's okay for them not to want to be there. It is our job as clinicians and as individuals working within a program to utilize skills that will help them to increase their motivation, uh, for being in treatment and.
It is so powerful and you don't always know when it's gonna happen, but I promise, promise, promise. If you give it time, it will happen. And it's usually not because of anything that I say it's usually because of something that one of their peers says that the switch flips and they're like, oh, okay. Yeah, I see.
I get it. And that's, what's so powerful again about connection and community and, and the group work because so often that aha moment will happen when one of their peers says to them, you know what? I used to say that too. And this is what happened to me. So you can say what you want, you can do what you want, but I'm just sharing my experience and they can be raw in that way.
And it's just, it's so powerful and it's so just, um, fantastic to watch. So they're not gonna have, they don't have to want to be there to get something out of it. That's a, and B I would say, you know, if you have a trial that is currently in some type of residential program or wilderness program or inpatient program, that there is a solidified.
Very clear and agreed upon plan for what is going to happen when they leave and that all parties agree on it while they are still there. They are not leaving there until that plan is agreed upon. And there's also very clear ramifications, um, consequences of not following through with the. And, and, and that's okay too.
Laying those boundaries is O is okay to do with, with somebody that you love. In fact, oftentimes their words, aren't saying that they want it, but their actions are telling you that they don't know how to create those boundaries for themselves. So they need to, to borrow your ability to do so until they learn how to do it for themselves.
So in the ideal world, discharge plan is set. They leave and I always tell families. Don't do these breaks. Don't say, okay, you know, they're leaving inpatient. They're just gonna come home and we're gonna go away on a family vacation for two weeks and then they'll start their next outpatient episode. No, they leave their inpatient facility.
And that day they're doing their intake or at worse the very next day. So that. A continuity of experience because the second that you leave, you forget why you wanted to go, or it becomes very easy to just change your mind. So going right away. And then if they absolutely refuse, listen, if you, you, you can't drag a 22 year old into like you just, you can't physically do it.
However, you can let them know that if, if they're making this choice, then you're gonna have to make certain choices. Around things that you know, will impact their, their life. You know, I'm not necessarily saying kick them out of the house, but paying, paying credit card bills, giving allowance, giving money, giving them a phone, giving them computers.
That's not gonna happen. If you're not, you, you have a roof over your head. You can eat the food that's in the fridge, but no card, no, like. That
Brenda: I'm not gonna do. Yeah. I think we could do a whole episode on money.
Amanda: money is, oh, it is so, so, so, so loaded. Um, and also on the flip side of it too, teaching young people how to be responsible with money, how to budget, et cetera.
But yeah, money is very, very loaded, especially with this age group, cuz I will always hear with our clients who are over 18, our young adult. I'm an adult. Yeah. Like you can't talk to my parents. Well, who's paying the bill.
Brenda: right. yes, it is so tricky. I know so many of our, our moms, um, and dad struggle with how much to support financially.
And I think you're right. You just have to, at that point, start having a conversation of, okay, if this is how you're planning to live, then this is how we're planning to support you and where we, where we aren't gonna support you. And that gets really, really tricky. Um, From a practical standpoint, from an emotional standpoint, it's very complicated, but, um, Wow.
So much to think about. I would love to know just because you, you see so many families and all the dynamics that go on as people come in as they go out. Cause I'm sure your door's probably not as, um, revolving as like a Chicago windy door, but I'm sure there is a little bit of in and out, um, of that. And some of the, the things that you see.
If I could give you a billboard in times square to say to families, and specifically to parents who might have a kiddo, who's, you know, been in a program now they're out now, they're back or they're home, and they're struggling again with everything that you see and, and where things bubble up. Is there anything that you would put on your billboard in times square?
Amanda: That's tough. I would want like three billboards if possible. um, I, I think it's really important, uh, for parents to understand that loving your child and my boundaries with your child while they are in active addiction are. Mutually exclusive concepts. Your child might say to you after you lay a difficult boundary, I hate you.
How could you do this to me clearly? You don't love me. What's their disease talking. Uh, it's not them talking and laying a boundary. Can oftentimes be the most loving thing that you can
Brenda: do for your, for your
child.
Amanda: Uh, a second thing is too is remembering. Uh, to separate, cuz it can be really hard when you see your child.
Uh, nobody ever envisions. When you know you're you have this little baby in your arms, you don't think of this little baby. You know, when they turn 16, 17, 15, 18, whatever it is, um, using cocaine or heroin. And there's a lot of mixed feelings. You always love your child, but you also have some complicated.
Difficult negative feelings about your child as well. And that's okay. That's normal. And what can help with that is remembering that there's your child and then there's their disease. And, and those are two separate things. Your, your child is not themselves when they're in disease mode, their disease steals from.
Their disease is violent. Their disease gets them in trouble. Not them. They are beautiful. They are wonderful human beings. And in disease mode, they turn into something else. And remembering that I think helps, helps keep that level alive and helps keep things in, in perspective.
Brenda: I'm so glad you said that, because that is the trickiest part.
When you're seeing the same body on the outside mm-hmm and that, that same body is doing these horrible things. It is hard to distinguish. Um, and so I'm super glad you said that because it's a constant, it's like a daily thing that you have to remember is this is, um, this is my child, but this is my child under.
The influence and impact of some extremely powerful substances. And I think that's another thing today too. Um, I wish we had time to get into it, but, but we'll, we'll do it next time is, is sort of, um, what is going on today with the, the powerful substances between the marijuana strains and fentanyl and all that.
The hooks are so strong. And so that's beautiful just to remember that. Your kiddo is still in there, and I can attest that you will find them and your, your testimony that, you know, you, you can emerge from that. So I really, really appreciate that. Thank you so much for being here and sharing all of this wisdom with us.
And we'll put links in the show notes to find Amanda and to find the dorm. Great resources if you're in the New York city area and DC, so we'll make sure and get, get everybody linked up with those and your social media and loved having you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Amanda: Thanks for having me. Yeah.
Brenda: Okay.
That is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda zane.com/podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there. So that's very helpful. You might also wanna download a free ebook. I wrote it's called H. Three things.
I wish I knew when my son was misusing drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from Brenda's name.com/hindsight. Thank you so much for listening.
I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself.