nine things we never talk about (out loud) when our kids misuse drugs or alcohol, with Cathy Cioth
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
Guest: Cathy Cioth, Director, The Stream Community
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About this episode:
There are some thoughts, questions, and situations we face as parents of kids who are misusing substances that make us question our parenting, our sanity and even our humanity. Because these tricky topics don't often make it into the conversation, we're tackling them today as a way to air issues you may be wrestling with - but doing it in a safe, private place.
Episode resources:
Beyond Addiction, How Science and Kindness Help People Change (book)
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Brenda: We have a different kind of episode for you.
My guest is Cathy Cioth, who is my business partner and the incredible leader of all things in the stream community. And we thought it might be a good idea to do an episode where we talk about the really difficult things, emotions and thoughts that you go through when you're parenting a child who's misusing substances, often living a high risk lifestyle.
They're also very often dealing with learning differences and mental health challenges. And it is a lot. And there are things that don't often get talked about at least out loud, because they're a little [00:01:30] controversial or awkward or uncomfortable, or just difficult to admit to, or discuss with someone, especially if they're not also in the middle of the mess. So that's what we are going to talk about today. And just as a reminder, Kathy and I are not therapists or doctors, we are experienced parents.
We're also both trained CRAFT coaches. So that is always our approach. But what we talk about is from the parents' point of view, and we are not giving out therapeutic advice here. What we do say always is get yourself a therapist. You need your own therapist when you are going through this experience.
So that's just a reminder that we are here to raise some questions. We're here to get you thinking and to provide you with a sense of not being alone with these things, but we're not telling you how to solve or resolve anything. That is the work that you get to do on your own with your spouse or partner with your child.
And we really, really do encourage you to do that with a therapist. So with that, let's just dive in.
Cathy, Welcome.
Cathy: Hi, Brenda, it's good to be back. Thank you. Thank you.
Brenda: So if you're listening and you are wondering who's Kathy, the Cathy is my partner in [00:03:00] crime. my co-pilot
Cathy: all good things. I like co-pilot,
Brenda: Yes co-pilot and she heads up everything that's happening in the stream community. And so she's involved day to day with all of our mamas in there, getting loved up and getting supported in so many different ways.
So we decided that we should just have a little chat today.
Cathy: a chat on things that nobody really talks about. Let's be clear, right? There's lots, lots of things that, when you've got a, a kid who's struggling or a spouse or anything, really, I mean, but if you, if you know a loved one, who's struggling with substances, there's kind this little area that nobody talks about
Brenda: Yeah. It's the awkward conversation that you're always wondering. Should I bring this up or not? And usually we don't
Cathy: you usually don't cuz we don't feel safe. We don't feel comfortable bringing it up with just anybody. So, this is a great place to do it. We've both been through it and I think this is a great place to have these conversation.
Brenda: it is. And it's great to do on a podcast because, you can listen to a podcast and nobody has to know what you're listening to. It's not like if you're reading a book on the plane and everybody can see what book you're reading, we recently went to a conference together, Cathy and I did, and I was on the plane on my way there.
And I was reading, the beyond addiction that they have a new workbook out. And so it's, you know, this giant workbook that
Cathy: Yep. Yep.
Brenda: beyond [00:04:30] addiction, I don't know what all it says on the cover. you get interesting looks when you read books like that on airplanes.
Cathy: You really do. And you can't put like a screen, you know, hide or, you know, the little thing that you can put on your screen, so no one can see what you're looking at. So,
Brenda: Right.
Cathy: and you don't always wanna have to share what you're talking, you know, with your seatmates. Right. So
Brenda: I mean, it is a good conversation opener. And sometimes people are really like happy to have somebody to talk to about it, but yeah, if you're trying to get work done, it's
Cathy: Oh, I hear you. I hear you.
Brenda: All right. Well, let's just dive into some of our, we, we brainstormed a little list for you if you're listening.
So you might be able to relate to some of these, and, and maybe not others, but we thought we would just run, run through some of these. the first one is something that I have kind of brought up on other episodes, but we haven't really, taken a deep dive into it. And that is, should I be drinking when my son or daughter is in treatment or if they're struggling, this is something that I thought about.
Occasionally when my son was struggling, I tend to, Now, it just seems so obvious that I probably shouldn't have, but at the time he really struggled with marijuana and with pills. And so to me it didn't feel like something that was potentially a bad idea. and I'm not saying that it always is a bad idea,
Cathy: Right,
Brenda: but [00:06:00] it is a difficult question.
and also now that marijuana is legal, a lot of adults use it.
Cathy: right,
Brenda: So, that's why we wanted to bring it up because it's like, wait a minute now, like, what do I do? So
are your thoughts on that?
Cathy: You know, th this is a great, great question. And, and I could tell you how it affected our family. I am not a big drinker, but I was definitely drinking, before my kids were in treatment. I, I just, it just sounded great to have something to relax to at the end of the day. And let me tell you, finding.
Huge amounts of pot in your home or whatever and saving it. I, I'm not sure why we saved it instead of throwing it out. But, that's another, maybe that's another little topic today, but, finding the drugs and then wondering what you do with them. But as far as the drinking goes, it did affect our family.
and it was really more when, when our kids were in treatment and when they came home, do you drink, do you order a glass of wine when you're taking your newly sober child out to dinner? And, my husband actually decided to stop drinking, in September of 2016, he just decided I'm gonna see what this is like, because he wanted the experience of what it would be like for his son.
Cathy: He couldn't imagine having a kid that's 19. Be sober for the rest of his life. And it just, it, it really was a head scratcher for us, [00:07:30] both. We thought, oh, what do weddings look like? What do you, we have a big family with cultural traditions that you take a shot of vodka, during the Christmas celebration.
And we thought, well, we're not doing that. You know, clearly our son can't do that. And so anyway, my son, my husband did give up drinking and he hasn't had drops since. And it was difficult at first cuz he's in an industry that celebrates with a lot of alcohol. but you know, I think that there's been challenges around it, you know,
do we go back to it? But he has chosen not to. And my drinking is almost nonexistent. So that's kind of, it's, it's difficult though. It causes you to look. It really causes you. I'd like to, I'd love to hear what your experience has been because it really causes you to look at. Your experience with alcohol or drugs and why,
Brenda: yeah. A
Cathy: why do you need it?
Right. Like I, why do I need to drink? And
Brenda: Yeah,
Cathy: just a great conversation,
Brenda: it is. If, if nothing else it does make you examine, what, what am I doing? How am I coping? And I know a lot of moms who like, at the end of the day, it's a, it's a bottle of wine in a bag of popcorn. Right. It's like, that's just.
Cathy: forget the popcorn,
Brenda: You can't forget the popcorn, because when things are so, so, so stressful and scary, you really do need a way to kind of downregulate and just like we say about our kids, [00:09:00] it works, wine faster than popcorn.
I will say I guess, depending on what you put on your popcorn. yeah, for us. So I did not stop drinking, when my son was in treatment and when he was really struggling, he never said anything about it. I never really said anything about it. so it just was one of those things that I. Think about, which seems so crazy now that I look back, I never really thought about like, why am I doing this?
Being mindful about it at all? although I do remember when he overdosed the second time and he was, in the hospital in a coma on life support. for, and I was there at the hospital with him for a month. I didn't drink at all. You know, obviously like I'm sleeping in a hospital and I remember feeling really clearheaded and I
Cathy: Yes.
Brenda: is really cool. Like I feel, I feel everything good and bad.
Cathy: Right,
Brenda: And I just remember thinking, and maybe that's where I started to really. be more mindful about it and think, do I really like, why am I doing this? Do I really need to do it? And just being mindful too, of my other kids and, and them watching, how is mom, you know, is she coming home at the end of the day?
Like, Ugh, I'm so tired. I need a glass of wine. What message is that sending?
Cathy: Right. The coping, right?
Brenda: yeah. And you know, I just wanna be clear that we're not here saying, you know, you should not be drinking if your [00:10:30] kid's in treatment at all. I think what you should do is you should be mindful about it just even for yourself.
and it could be a really good conversation opener too, with your son or your daughter to talk about it.
Cathy: I
Brenda: let it not let it be that elephant in the room. You know what I
Cathy: Right. Right. And we did, you know, that was, that was, I'm glad you brought that up because, I agree. Like we, we actually made the decision to get alcohol out of our house. it's back in our house, by the way, it just is, you know, we have parties and, and we're at a place where we feel comfortable having in our home, but in the beginning we did not, but we did have these conversations.
Hey, you know, how do you feel about going to this party? You know, there's gonna be a lot of wine. We have a big Italian family and you know, our son was great. he actually. Learn to cope, or, or how to handle this situation by working with his sponsor and, you know, how do you handle these situations?
Cathy: Because the world's not gonna stop their
Brenda: Exactly.
Exactly.
Cathy: And so that was a really great lesson, you know? And so, but you know, we wanted our home to feel different for him. And so, and that is how we did it. like I say, we have it back in our house right now. Alcohol is there. but definitely it's great conversation to have with your
Brenda: Yeah,
Cathy: love that
Brenda: Yep. So, so there there's one.
Cathy: there's one down check.
Woo. We [00:12:00] started easy.
Brenda: We start easy. Yes. so then the other thing that we were kind of batting around is the whole topic of our marriages, our relationships, our romantic relationships. a lot of us are, either in a second marriage or for divorced. you are in your original marriage, which kudos to you for keeping that together.
But when things are really crazy and really, scary and, and kind of chaotic, I know that the relationship, from an intimacy standpoint, from a just, and I mean like physical sexual intimacy, it can suffer if you don't have, I think some really good.
Guardrails in place to help you, you know, marriage, counselor, or someone like that. But I know, especially as moms, we are so taxed with all of the things that we do and when your brain is scared and exhausted and you're trying to plan what's, what am I gonna do? You know, can I get them to treatment?
What happens when they come home from treatment? Like all those things you really just don't often feel like being intimate. It's like, no,
Cathy: for sure.
Brenda: I'm tapped. I got nothing.
Cathy: Or, or being close at all. Even if we're taking, you know, [00:13:30] that total intimacy, you know, sometimes you don't even wanna cuddle. You don't want anyone to even touch you. You just feel exhausted. Like you said, you know, and you've given a hundred percent to everyone else. And so it's just, you feel like you've got nothing left to.
Brenda: Yeah. Yeah, the whole, I, I do remember times where , my husband would, you know, reach out just to gimme a hug, not, not anything even like, you know, more than that, but, and I, and I would just bristle, like I, I would tense up and, and I felt bad about that. And I still don't. I should probably get some analysis around why that is.
Cathy: he used to go back and apologize. It's
Brenda: that I'll, I'll add that to the list, the long list of things I need to do. but yeah, because you're, you know, your proverbial cup is empty. It's just. Bone dry. And you're like, please
Cathy: right,
Brenda: don't ask me for anything else. And our partners often tend to get the bottom of the cup because we have to give it work.
We have to give at, you know, at home with our, the siblings who aren't going through this, and we're trying to do the best we can for them and our parents, you know, caring for parents who might need us that often it's that partner, whether it's the wife or the husband or whoever, it's like, well, sorry, I got nothing for you.
Cathy: [00:15:00] It's so true. It is so true. And I, you know, and I remember when we were going through it, when it was really bad and you know, my mother-in-law was dying. And so we were, we had a lot coming in from all different angles and, and it was so difficult. And of course you. I just remember thinking too, I was crying so much.
Like, I didn't feel like I looked or, you know, like, I'd think to why does my husband even wanna snuck with me?
Brenda: Right.
Cathy: I just did not feel pretty. I didn't feel like I could be there for him. And, it was really hard. And so those are things that, oh, if I could tell anyone now, just to give yourself a little grace during this period, because you know, it, it is this way it's gonna be tough and self care.
Oh gosh. I know we talk about self-care all the time, but it really does make a difference to refuel a little bit with self-care, but
Brenda: and you, the other day we were talking, you said you gained weight when your kids were
struggling. I lost weight to, to the point where it was very unhealthy and. I think you can you look at yourself in the mirror and you're like, wait, who is that person?
Like, I don't know who that person is. And yeah, you don't feel sexy and you don't feel fun and you don't feel any of that. You just kinda wanna crawl under the couch and curl up and disappear.
Cathy: Yeah. [00:16:30] When is this gonna be over? Right. When is this feeling? When is, and, and how do I even have the energy to start addressing my physical self and what I need to do? And, and these are just really, really tough dilemmas outside of dealing with your children who are using some really, really dangerous drugs and, and are struggling emotionally themselves and physically,
Brenda: Yeah.
Cathy: oh, that time was tough.
Brenda: It's really tough. And you know, there, there isn't a one answer, but I think the self-care thing. So when you say self-care, cause I, I just wanna make sure that people understand, what that actually means, because I truly did not know. I'd never heard that term until maybe a year into our craziness and somebody said it and I was like, what, what I'm supposed to take care of myself.
Like, it just did not make sense to me. So when you say self care, kind of, what do you think of? What, what would somebody be doing if we flew over their house and a hot air balloon that would, we would look down and go, oh, she's doing it like she is taking care of herself
Cathy: You know what I always say, can you spare one minute? sometimes that's all you feel you could. . And so I would, you know, when I say that, I say, set your timer on your phone for one minute and just take a bunch of deep breaths and [00:18:00] you may get to the end of that one minute and say, oh yeah, that was not really my thing, but that's okay.
You did it. And you can build on it.
Brenda: right?
Cathy: And self care is silly. It's like some of the easiest, easiest things you can do, it does not mean go and spend an hour, getting a pedicure, go to a spa for a week. All those things that seem just completely unattainable when you can't even get your head straight. I say start with something small.
I love spending time in my car. because at that time it was the quietest space. I was completely alone and I knew I was alone.
Brenda: Yes.
Cathy: No one lurking, you know, maybe someone in a bedroom that I didn't know about and I would go on my car and I would blast music. That's self-care
Brenda: Yeah.
Cathy: drive to the grocery store.
That's self-care
Brenda: yeah.
Cathy: It's not what you think. It's, it's literally these little tiny moments that you do just for you that you want to do that's self care.
Brenda: yes. And not, not having to respond immediately to everything. I think adding in that little buffer zone of, you know, another kid is like, oh, you know, I need to go here. I need to go there. It's okay to say, I would love to take you and we'll leave in 20 minutes.
Cathy: right,
Brenda: And then in those 20 minutes you can breathe.
You could, do some jumping tracks or what, anything,
anything,
Cathy: that.[00:19:30]
Brenda: but just allowing for that time for yourself. I think can be really powerful, even if you don't have anything planned for that time, just to be setting some of those boundaries to say, absolutely, I would love to take you there,
Cathy: Right.
Brenda: be at the car in 10 minutes or whatever.
It doesn't even matter what it is, but it just allows you a little bit of that control. So
Cathy: Right. Do you know what it reminds me of Brenda, when you said that, I don't know if you had that experience when your kids were toddlers, but life was a little crazy and you felt like, oh, maybe they're crying. They're this, that, and you you'd go to the bathroom or you'd go. And you'd like close the door for all of like two minutes and think, oh, this is heaven. know, there's nobody, there's just for two minutes or whatever. And you just felt like this was so big. And so if you could kinda recapture that,
Brenda: yes.
Cathy: feeling that's. I think what we're trying to say here, right? Is that's your self care
Brenda: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's putting yourself in control of your time and your actions for it. Like you said, it could be one minute, it could be 30 minutes, whatever you can do. so that you feel like you're not just at the whim of the chaos and the crazy. And you know, I think this is true even when your kids are in recovery because you and I still really practice a lot of self care and our kids are not in the crazy in the [00:21:00] crisis.
it's still so important because if you start slacking off on that, and I'm talking a little bit out, out of both sides of my mouth right now, cuz I tend to work a little too much. things start to hurt things, start to break. We break down. I'm dealing with a crazy shoulder situation right now that I know is.
Brenda: Aggravated by, you know, too much mouse computer work. so you have to stay on it. Even if your kids are doing better, you have to be really diligent about that aspect of life.
Cathy: it's really true. And that, and that's where time is, you know, can help, I think. And, and sometimes when our kids are in a more regulated and safe space, your time for self care can grow
And that's the beauty of it, but, I'm always impressed with people who could be in the thick of it and do it and, and just to keep going.
And you mentioned a great word and that's empowerment, it really does empower you.
Brenda: yeah, for sure.
Cathy: right, right.
Brenda: All right. So we went all over the place on that
Cathy: We did, we did kind of go
Brenda: that's
Cathy: one.
Brenda: that's our tendency though. okay, so this is a really hard one. Really really hard one
Cathy: know, I know exactly what you're gonna say, but I'm just gonna sit back and let you say it. Cause this is your podcast.
[00:22:30]
Brenda: Okay. So this is, this is a really hard one. the, this is the time when you sit and you think to yourself, I wonder if it would just be easier if they weren't here anymore.
Cathy: yeah,
Brenda: it, almost makes, I mean, it does make me, teary to talk about this because I was there. didn't think I was going to get so emotional on this one, but it's really hard.
And there are times when you see what it's doing to your family, you see what it's doing to you, you see what it's doing to them, and you think what, if they can't get out of this? Right? What if they. [00:24:00] Stay in this forever. How are we gonna cope with life? And would it be better? And I think some of this has to do with whatever your spiritual beliefs are.
And I knew that if my son didn't make it, that he was gonna be okay, he was gonna be in a better place. And, you know, I remember sitting in the hospital in this dark ICU room, all the beeping and the wooing of the ventilator. And, you know, I mean, it's, I can even smell like the, that antiseptic soap
Cathy: Mm-hmm
Brenda: and thinking.
I mean, I really did. I kind of made a deal with God. It was like, okay, here's the deal I can't do this anymore. And so if, and he was in a coma, and. You know, the doctors were like, there's a very good chance that his brain is severely damaged. Cuz he had been in a car for three hours and when they found him he had no pulse and he was filming at the mouth.
And so, you know, I said, if he's gonna be here, can he please have a quality of life? And if not, and if he's gonna go back to this lifestyle, please take him now. And that was so hard to think and I felt so guilty for thinking it. And I think, you know, you and I talk with a lot of people and every once [00:25:30] in a while, somebody will be really brutally honest and say that and talk about this.
But I think it's not enough because I know. There. And, and I'm not saying that you think this all the time, but there might be a flash of an instant in your mind when something's going really badly and you think this, and then you feel so guilty for thinking it. And so that's why we're talking about it.
Cathy: Yeah, this is, this is such a tough, tough one. And I, I get your emotions around it. I mean, you did, you went all the way, in your experience, pretty much as far as you can go to having that be a reality. And, our situation was different, but there were times where, you know, we did, I did. I wondered, wow. I don't have to worry about that if they weren't here.
And that's really tough. it makes me emotional too, because I know that that. After the intervention with our son, you know, and realizing how close he was to, actually potentially dying. And, and that was really hard. And I, and I don't think that I was fully aware of that until I kind of got a little set right.
With this intervention and all of that. And, it's very scary and yeah, it felt horrible having these emotions around it, because I just wanted to escape so badly and, and that's truly a [00:27:00] very human thing to do.
Brenda: Yeah.
Cathy: And so I think that if anything, you know, all your parents that are feeling this way, this is I think just normal to want to feel okay.
And want your kids to be okay. And, and so you do what you can, and your brain goes there. Your brain just goes there.
Brenda: Well, yeah, because you, you do want them to be okay. And it's so, I don't even know if there's a word in all these years that I've been doing this. I can't find the word because painful doesn't even come close to the, the feeling of watching your child basically at, at some level, it, to me felt like he was committing suicide every single day in front of me.
so I can't really find the right word cuz painful is not even close to it. It's debilitating. Right. And you just
Cathy: yeah. And paralyzing.
Brenda: yeah. If this is how it's gonna be. Then why, like, it just doesn't make sense in your brain. And I think your brain just naturally, as humans, we go for safety, right?
Like we don't tend to put ourselves in risky situations or painful situations just for the fun of it. So when you're in this repeated chronic level of pain, let's just call it that because we use that. there comes a time when you just think I can't do it anymore. I just can't cope. [00:28:30] I don't know how to function.
Life is, life is not enjoyable anymore. And we see that and we try to work with the moms that, you know, are in the stream and say, yes, this is true. And you still have to find ways to live and ways to cope and ways to have a good time and to have.
Joy in your life and it doesn't come naturally. So you have to work at it for sure.
Cathy: And this kind of segues into something else that I know we were gonna talk about, but that's, it's okay to get your own help. At this point, you may have a child that has turned down every offer of help that you've offered to them. and that, that can be so difficult. And at some point, ask yourself, is it something that I need and, and, you know, that may just be the answer there too.
So cuz those thoughts are disturbing, right? And, and I've come across parents. Who've kind of keep going back to those thoughts and just, you know, and that they makes them feel worse and worse. And so at some point, ask yourself too, you know, maybe I would benefit from receiving my own help in therapy
Brenda: absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if, if you don't have your own therapist, that would be the number one recommendation, I would say, you know, for your own mental health, because, you know, you really do need [00:30:00] somebody at a professional level like that to help you through this. And I know my therapist probably saved my life and you know, my son's life as well, just because she was able to walk with me through this and, and give me perspective that I couldn't have, because I was so frazzled and scared and all of that.
So yes, absolutely. Having your own therapist is crucial. but yeah, just kind of wrapping up that. That thought, I think it is normal to have those thoughts flash through, if you're ruminating on them again, get your own therapist. But, it's, there is a difference, I think, between having a flash of like, oh, I just wish this was, would end
Cathy: A hundred
Brenda: versus 24 hours a day ruminating on this.
You know, like I can't do this anymore. because your own mental health is going to suffer
Cathy: right,
Brenda: no matter what. And it's good to be able to at least maybe ask yourself how much of my life and my time is this consuming. because that will kind of help guide you on, okay. You know, it's just every once in a while, I'm just at the end of my rope and I have, you know, this thought versus I really need to get some perspective on this, so, yep.
That's a tough one. It's it's real, you know,
Cathy: real. And I, [00:31:30] and I will say for me also, Usually it came to the point, like you had this conversation with God. And, that was for me when I just said I'm done, I'm done. And, and it brought change for us. because I think it allowed me to start looking elsewhere for help. And, and, you know, I was the person with the proverbial bricks to my head and so, you know, it was helpful for me,
Brenda: Yeah. It can be helpful to reach that I'm done point and I think it parallels really well with, you know, our kids have to get to the point in, in their life where what they're doing sucks worse than if they were gonna make some change.
Cathy: Yeah,
Brenda: we get to the same point, right? We get to the point where we're like, okay, you know what?
This is not working. I've gotta do something different. And that can be really great because that can create change in you as a person to say, you know what? I, I do need to start learning more about boundaries and what those are and how can I use those to protect myself and help my family, or I've gotta start eating better, or I've gotta start walking, or I need to work on my relationship with my spouse or my partner.
And so it can be good to get to that point. And that's different for everybody to say, okay, that's it [00:33:00] not doing it anymore? I gotta change. And, and that can be a, a positive thing.
Cathy: absolutely. Yeah.
Brenda: So, whew.
Cathy: Oh,
Brenda: All right, what's next? Oh, well this one kind of goes along with this last one,
Let's talk about resentment.
Cathy: this is actually a really tough one for me, cuz I'm usually a very positive person and I really can't stand this part of this whole process cuz I think it just happens. It's just a natural, I I've never met someone who hasn't felt resentful, jealous of other families, seemingly having these amazing milestones that they reach with proms and graduations and you know, and there's a lot of comparing that goes on.
So, this is a tough one for me because, you know, I felt so alone. going through this then I think a lot of people can identify with that, right? You feel like you're the only person that has kids who are struggling. And then you're you do that crazy thing where you wind down your day by looking at social media and you're looking at prom pictures or graduations, or all the colleges these kids get into.
And you're thinking, wow,
Brenda: Yeah.
Cathy: life could be further from this.
Brenda: Yeah.
Cathy: And that was [00:34:30] really hard. And that's a real emotion you feel is the resentment. And, I mean, look, we all are happy for our friends and their kids, but boy, it's a thing,
Brenda: It's a thing. It's a
Cathy: a thing.
Brenda: And also resent being resentful of our kids. Like I like, how could you be doing this to me? Right. Like this sounds, this is why we're talking about this stuff. Cuz it sounds so bad. But I think we, at least I know I did, I would think, wow, you have taken away so much from my life.
My job I'd literally lost a job. which I'm, you know, in hindsight was a good thing. but that's for another podcast episode. So, you know, you look at your life and the things that you are not doing. Because of this, like, just, even from a practical standpoint, like I couldn't go travel to my other kids' basketball tournament for a weekend.
Cuz there is no way I could have left the house, him alone in the house. Right. So it can be even just a practical thing like that. Like now I can't do this because you're being so crazy. or just, you know, like I'm in my forties, this is the time when I should be, you know, growing my career and moving up in my job and getting this other position.
And I can't do that because I'm [00:36:00] so stressed out and I'm so absent from my role at work or whatever it is. But I think there's the external resentment of other people and their families and how perfect they look. And then the resentment that we have when our kids are putting us through this and to me.
And just, this has really only come more recently. The antidote to that is to really understand the roots of the problem that they're having and the solution that they have found, which is very destructive, but it works for them for a while, right. The substance use. So just getting educated about substance use and addiction and trauma that will help tremendously, I think, to subside a little bit that those feelings of like, oh
Cathy: right. Right. Those, those behaviors all make sense. Right? Just like we talked earlier about having that glass of wine and it just, you know, kind of, it, it numbed it, all, it soothes it. All right. Understanding why our kids are doing this and, and, you know, What they went through to get to that point. Right. and, and that is, but boy, that resentment to them.
Yeah. And, and also, you know, what, what could I have done differently, right. To, you know, have, have stopped this and, and all of those questions that come up.
Brenda: right. Resenting [00:37:30] our own choices maybe,
Cathy: potentially maybe, maybe you don't resent your choices. Maybe you're, you're thinking that you've done everything right. And they still went through that.
Right. So there's a lot, there's a lot there. And the resentment, right. encapsulates a lot of things, but
Brenda: Yeah. No, that's very true.
Cathy: mm-hmm,
Brenda: Whew.
Cathy: that's a tough one. Again, give yourself a little
Brenda: Yes.
Cathy: grace during this time. cause these are things that, I can guarantee you, every, every parent who's has kids struggling. Gone through this.
Yeah.
Brenda: Yes. Yes. okay. So another one, now this is not ever a tricky topic money.
Cathy: Mm.
Brenda: never
Cathy: treatment is so inexpensive, right? This should, this, this shouldn't even be a topic.
Brenda: it's affordable. It's covered by our insurance.
Cathy: Right, right.
Brenda: oh my goodness. So money. I do. who is I talking to? I was talking, oh, I think it was with Amanda. Who's actually on the podcast today. we talked about the fact that we could do an entire episode around money, not just the money that we have to spend, you know, to get our kids help and all the reasons why it should be covered.
And it's not, under insurance, but also the, the confusion of do I give my kids money? How do I give them money? You know, they say they're doing really well, [00:39:00] and yet they still want, you know, $200 for this or that. Do I send it to them? Do I, you know, it's so confusing because we get trained. if they've been in active use for a while, we get trained to not trust and every $20, you know, whether, whatever they say it's for, it's not gonna go towards
that.
Cathy: exactly.
Brenda: we get a little traumatized by that. But, I think, you know, one of the things that parents feel really pressured about that I see, and I know I felt, and you felt is like, okay, I just found out this treatment is gonna cost $50,000 or $30,000 or a hundred thousand dollars or whatever it is. And even though it should be covered by insurance, it's usually not.
and not a lot of people have 20 or 30 or 50 or a hundred thousand dollars sitting around, you know, in a drawer
Cathy: Really cause I have a bag. I have a tree out in the
backyard. I'm surprised I do actually. Yeah.
Brenda: Awesome. and that is terrifying.
Cathy: yeah, it is absolutely
Brenda: then you're put in this really horrible position of do I spend the money? It seems crazy that I have to spend this money.
This money is, you know, I've set it aside for my retirement or my other kids' schooling. And, and is that fair? If I spend it all on this one [00:40:30] child, is it fair to myself? Like, how am I gonna retire someday? Or, you know what I mean? It just
puts you in this really uncomfortable position of having to say almost, is it worth it?
Cathy: Sure. And, and there's, and, and to be clear, there's no, every answer is personal to every family. Right. And yeah, that's the, I was blown away that, well, I knew insurance wasn't gonna pay for wilderness. but what was shocking to me during the whole process was finding out that if your kid is sober, when they enter a rehab, because they clearly need more help after, you know, they just go to a place and get clean.
And then, then they go to, kind of like a rehab where they can get work, really work, you know, on their emotional issues and the whole family. It's, it's a family affair. The insurance won't pay for that.
Brenda: It's not medically necessary.
Cathy: Isn't that crazy. I mean, that was the biggest shock. Oh, well, your kid's sober. So no, they don't what you know?
And so, yeah, so it did have you, I mean, maybe we were lucky cuz both of our kids were in in it. And so we were fortunate not to have to make that choice of, well, we put all of our money towards this one kid. This other child won't have money for school. So, I love my husband says they got an AP class in life and that's [00:42:00] where their college tuition went was for treatment.
but you know, I, a lot of people don't have college money saved up. A lot of people just can't they, they, they just, it, this is really, really tough. This is such a tough question. And it's okay to ask this question. I think if I were to tell anyone there are options out there, there are great free programs out there.
Cathy: There are. Charitable organizations that help you get treatment. So if it's really something you don't wanna spend the money on, or you don't have the money, there are options. But yeah, this is a really tough one. the, the cost of treatment programs is just so high
and understandably too, because what they provide often, right.
And, and the liability insurance and all of that is just, it's a business
Brenda: Yes, definitely. And you're right. I think it's always good to explore all of the options before you go to something like a wilderness or, you know, an inpatient rehab that should not be your first line of defense. You wanna really exhaust any local options that you have. And sometimes those don't work, you know, like in our case, we tried every local option that was available.
it was not working, wasn't helping. And so we did have to make that decision to, you know, pay out of pocket for [00:43:30] wilderness therapy. And, you know, I think everybody has to ask their, you know, themselves and their family and, all of that, what they're okay with. And I'll just give my, my mindset was, from a college standpoint, colleges are gonna be around forever.
There are loan programs to, for, you know, my other kids go to college. not ideal for sure, but there is no alternative program to get my son back if he doesn't make it right. Like that was my mindset was, you know, I could have this big, beautiful house and be going and leaving this big, beautiful house to go to a graveyard.
And I don't wanna do that. So I made that decision to go all in and that was okay for us. And it would be totally not okay for someone else. So it's not that that was the right decision and that, I think that's what people should do. That's just what, that's how I rationalize the insane amount of money, right.
That we, that we put into this. and I, and somebody at the time, it was probably my therapist, cuz she was amazing. You know, just said, Brenda, if he was diagnosed with a brain tumor and for whatever reason, the surgery was not going to be covered by your insurance, would you question, should I get this surgery for him?
How am I gonna pay for it? And I said, no, I [00:45:00] wouldn't even, it
Cathy: Right.
Brenda: Make me blink twice. Like I would go find the money and she said, well, he basically does have a brain tumor. It's just not the kind that is gonna be covered by your insurance company, you know, metaphorically or whatever you wanna, you.
So that helped me. And again, that's, I think of a therapist can be really helpful just to give you some different ways to think about things. They're not gonna give you the answer.
Cathy: Absolutely.
Brenda: but yeah, I just thought, you know, I'm gonna, I just, I couldn't live with myself if I didn't know that I had tried everything again, not the right answer for everybody.
That was my own personal experience. And, and it's just unfortunate that we get put in that position as parents to have to make that decision right. To say, is it my home or is it the six month? Treatment program for my child, that there is a very good chance that that is not going to be their last program.
Cathy: Yeah. I agree, and, you know, I love that you brought up that your therapists helped you get there. Right. And you could do that by calling these programs too, you know, and I, you know, there's, there's so many options to when you're discerning what to do. and I, and I love that. And, you know, they're not all out to, I wanna be clear that, you know, there are some great, great programs out there.
They're not out there to get your money. And every, I mean, [00:46:30] you know, that's, I just wanna kind of clarify that, that there are some really amazing programs out there. and, their goal is to help not only your child, but the family and to work together on that. And so, but call them out, call them, ask them, you know, what options they have for you.
And, and, and do your work, you know, sit down old fashioned pencil and paper and say, can we somehow do this? There are so many options out there. We, we did the same thing. We thought if we have to sell our house, we'll sell our house. If we have to ask family for money, we would do that. And, because it is true, this is a really tough thing to get through.
And, and most people can't do it without any intervention at all. You need help
Brenda: Yeah. Yep. And, it's a position that not a lot of people are put in. And so what I found is that a lot of people have, advice for you or,
Cathy: Oh, for sure.
Brenda: that's to put it nicely. because it seems ludicrous, right? If you're looking at it from the outside in, you're seeing this kid wreck all kind of havoc in a family, in a town, in a city, across state lines, as minded.
And they look at that and it looks so willful and it looks so defiant and it just looks so on purpose and like, oh, this kid is just a nightmare. And then they hear [00:48:00] you say, yeah, we're selling our house so that we can pay for him to get some help. And they think, out of your mind?
Cathy: right. Why didn't you just ground them? That'll solve their situation, you know,
Brenda: you should, be more strict
Cathy: oh boy. I remember hearing that.
Brenda: Yeah. So if you are getting a lot of input and advice on that, just let it roll off your back.
Cathy: You I'll consider it.
Brenda: Yes. Yes. And you know, I, I, I just wanna make sure and circle back and say, you know, we know of people and we have members in our community who have said it is not the right decision for our family to spend this money in this way.
And they find other ways to help their kids. And that is 1000%. Okay, too. It's
not, it's not that you have to pay for treatment. I think it was Tanya Ahern, who was just on, recently I think she was, if you're listening, I wanna say it's episode 1 27, but I'll put it in the show notes. and she talks about, you know, please, please, please do not sell your home.
Do not mortgage yourself to death, you know, in the beginning, like that come down the
Cathy: Right, right,
Brenda: there are state programs, there are nonprofit programs, there are, you know, nonprofit organizations who can help you. And it does take a lot of time and resource, you know, like energy to those resources.
But, I just wanna make sure that people understand, it's not that there is [00:49:30] one way to do this at
Cathy: absolutely. Absolutely. Very individual. so, you know, okay.
Brenda: money. Yeah. That's
Cathy: Money is always, such a fun topic, such a fun
Brenda: Yes. well, the last one I wanna just wrap up with is cuz I hear it all the time and I know we, we both felt it and that is the feeling that if I, and this is, this is especially true, if your child's under 18, but it also applies if they're over and you can talk about this, from your perspective that I'm going to lose the relationship with my child.
If I send them to treatment, if I mandate treatment, if I have them transported to a wilderness program, they will never speak to me again.
Cathy: Oh yeah.
Brenda: Ever felt that.
Cathy: Oh my gosh. So yeah. So if you listen to my podcast, we had both of our kids. one, our daughter was transported and then three weeks later, our, our adult son was, chose to go to treatment. But yeah, I, it was definitely something I felt I, when I first heard the whole theory of what transport is, and it's basically for those of you listening that don't know, you, if your child is under 18 and is going to wilderness or to a program, there are transport [00:51:00] companies that are most often comprised of a, a therapist and a helper, and they come to your home in the middle of the night and you basically sign over your parental rights and they take your child to treatment.
And, they wake your child up or you wake your child up. And in our case, we woke our child up and said, we love you, but you know, we need you to go to treatment. And she did. And I was so scared. I just thought, I can't believe I'm doing this. I literally had that feeling. I can't believe I have two strangers in my home that I've just signed over my rights to, and they're gonna take my child away. But then, like you said earlier in this podcast, I've also felt if I don't do this, she may be in a body bag tomorrow. So. The first sounded way more appealing than the second. And so I also thought I will never have a relationship with her if I don't do something. And so, yeah, that was tough. That was really, really tough.
And, you know, she went to wilderness and those first few letters were a little rough. but
Brenda: They usually are.
Cathy: they usually are. but you know, she, she is great. She's always been super honest with us and, and definitely the net of it all six years later, we have a great relationship. [00:52:30] we just have great times when we're together and she's my little buddy.
but yeah, and, and to her credit, she's been super honest about, how being gooned cuz that's what it's called affected her. And, we also asked, and, and have been very. Forthcoming to her, to work that out in therapy when she's had therapists. , I guess the net of it is we're, we're good friends and we love each other.
Cathy: And we all know that this healing wouldn't have happened if we hadn't had to do the transportation route. And the same goes with our son, he, he had an intervention and yeah, it could have, you know, some very unkind words were said during that, intervention, but we also are super close with him right now.
And so sometimes you just have to do the really Peaky things, to get onto the road of healing. And, and I will say too, that there's lots of different modalities to transportation now than there were several years ago. There's more of a compassionate healing, or a compassionate intervention that can happen.
which is really great. But.
Brenda: Right.
Cathy: Sounds a long way of saying what happened in our family. How, how about you?
Brenda: it's that's really good context. yeah, I thought for sure, my son would never speak to me again. and then I weighed that with, well, I would rather have him alive and not speaking to me ever again. Than [00:54:00] in a body bag, because there's no chance, like you said, there's no chance of healing a relationship if they're not here with us.
So I was okay with that, cuz I just thought, you know, it's at the point where if he's alive and he hates me, I could, I can live with that. and I asked our ed consultant, who is a person who will help you find the right program for your child? I said, how many of the kids that you've worked with, the families that you've helped?
How many of them, you know, the, the child is doesn't have a relationship anymore with their parents. And she said not a single one.
worked, you know, she'd been doing this for many, many, many
Cathy: right. Hundreds and hundreds
Brenda: I thought the odds were pretty good. Then I was like, okay, I still didn't totally believe it. But I, I kind of made that rationalization in my head that I would rather have him hate me and be alive than the alternative.
and it can take time. I will say that because that didn't happen. And you know, like you, we have a good relationship, but it didn't happen right away. So you have to just know, this is an investment that you are making both financially and with your child, and it may take a while to pay off and that's okay.
Brenda: You know, it, it really is okay, but just knowing that relationships can be fixed a hundred percent, they can be fixed. And, the only way that that can happen is if they're [00:55:30] alive. So if that's the decision that you're batting around in your head, those are just some things to consider. you know, and it's, it's rough though, to have to have those thoughts of what.
am I gonna do? If I don't have, you know, he's gonna hate me forever.
Cathy: Yeah. You think about you, you thought you had problems just with your child using substances, but now you've gotta tag in. What if they hate me forever too. And
Brenda: mm-hmm
Cathy: it is really just so tough to have all of these there. It's very complex. There's a lot of complexities when it comes to substance use and what a parent goes through.
Right,
Brenda: Yes. Well, I think it's true that when, you know, people who in families, where there is no substance use, clearly everybody has problems in their family, but this is one that's so acute. And they think people think only about the substance you like, oh, you know, they think, oh, I'm so sorry. Like your son's drinking a lot or whatever.
They don't think about the collateral damage that surrounds those,
Cathy: whole ecosystem. Let's just put it out.
Brenda: oh, my word.
Cathy: like a whole system in there that all the things going on and circling around.
Brenda: And it's like, what are the little, what are those little things where there's like balls hanging down from strings and then you knock one and it the other, I don't know, I don't know what that's called, [00:57:00] but it it's like that where one thing touches the next thing. And then that touches the next thing and that, and it's just keeps going and going and going.
And you're like, when is this going to end?
Cathy: It's so true.
These are just great things. I'm so glad we got to chat about this today because these were things like you say, we, we started talking about, wow, did you have this feeling when you were going through it? And, and we realized, no, one's talking about this
stuff how much it affects everything.
Brenda: I know, I would love to do one of these with a therapist.
So therapist listening you wanna chat with us, because I bet there's things and I'm talking like a therapist who's working with our kids type therapist, because they probably have things in that they're thinking or that are, kids are thinking that would be a good, like flip side of this.
Cathy: so great to have someone like that on, because I will say like when our kids went through wilderness, that therapy was off the charts. Great. Like it was frontline therapy. How did you know that about not only my kids, but our family and everything else. And so it seems like these therapists that are really working with, you know, our kids and these really, really tough situations, they know so much.
So yeah. Come on board. That would be awesome to have someone like that on board talking about this situation. [00:58:30] Mm-hmm
Brenda: Yes. We might be opening ourselves up too. more than we wanna
reveal,
Cathy: right. Oh, not sure we wanna do it then.
Brenda: yeah. Well, thank you so much for hopping on and,
it's really great to have you and we'll make sure. And, we mentioned a couple of other episodes and people in here, and so we will make sure and put those in the show notes for you.
And if you're listening, just know we, we gotcha.
Cathy: Got you. We've been there hop on over to this stream. If you wanna be part of just an amazing community. I mean, the moms that are there are just waiting to love on you and, and just let you know, you are not alone in this.
Brenda: Yes. And who else could join a community soon? Kathy?
Cathy: Okay. This is super exciting. We are having a dad's community. We love the dads to come on over
Brenda: Yes.
Cathy: own private community. They will not be with their moms. They'll have their own separate community. We will not be part of that community. It's purely for, for guys and, and all they're going through. And so we just would love to have you dads come on board because we know what you're experiencing is very unique to you.
so, a lot of the same amazing, great content and education and everything else, but it's just geared towards the deaths.
Brenda: Yes. So they can go to Brenda [01:00:00] zane.com/dad, and we'll put the information there and we'll put the link of how to join.
And yeah, we're, we're actually looking for 20 or so dads who are willing to join and give us some feedback. So we're doing a little bit of a beta program. that'll be exciting. we wanna know what works, what doesn't work. So, yeah, we're very excited for that community and we've got some great guys in there who are gonna be hosting and moderating.
And so yeah, it will be female free. Is that,
Cathy: Female free. It'll be your, it'll be the, the, man cave,
Brenda: Yes.
Cathy: know? Right. no females allowed.
Brenda: Right. All right. Well, we'll talk with you soon. Thank you so much.
Cathy: thanks, Brenda. Have a great day.
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