Owen Fielding of NET Recovery: the drug-free, non-traditional treatment that bypasses withdrawal torture and restores choice to those trapped in addiction
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
Guest: Owen Fielding, NET Recovery
The Stream Community: a positive, health-focused online space for moms of kids experimenting with or addicted to drugs or alcohol
Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted to Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here
Want my weekly email for support during this difficult time? Click here to request it
Podcast support from:
This episode is supported by The Stream. You might be wondering who else is listening to this podcast and dealing with the same kinds of issues you are. You may also want to go beyond the podcast and dive deeper into the subjects with other moms who get it.
The Stream is the place where all of that happens. It’s a modern, online space where moms who have kids struggling with substance use and addiction issues focus on their own health, wellness, and sanity. There’s no judgment, and no drama (it's not on Facebook), and our community is based on positive thinking and learning CRAFT skills. We have weekly events, a book club, yoga classes, workshops, expert guest speakers, and supportive conversations.
Being a member of The Stream gives you an even deeper connection beyond the podcast where you get to interact with amazing moms and me every day. So if you'd like to hang out with us after the episodes, you can learn more and join us at www.thestreamcommunity.com. The first two weeks are always free to see if we’re your kind of people, then you pay whatever you can. We’re waiting for you there!
Episode resources:
The Final Fix documentary trailer
Clinical Trials website
Transcript:
Speakers: Brenda Zane, Owen Fielding
Brenda 01:46
I am so excited to finally get to release this episode today. It's been in the works for a while. And the timing of it has been a little tricky. But it's finally here. And it just makes me so happy to bring you this information. You may have listened to Episode 83. And seeing the trailer for the documentary The final fix. And if so, today, what you're going to learn is more about the actual ne t technology and the device that is used to help people get off of drugs and specifically in the film off of opioids. You can hear the entire origin story of NET in episode number 83.
Brenda 02:34
So I won't spend time here going into that, just know that this very effective solution has been around since the early 1970s. And it's just now in November of 2021 going to be going through an incredibly rigorous FDA trial, which was in part why this was a little tricky to coordinate. You're going to hear today from Owen Fielding, who is Operations Manager with an E T recovery Corp, which is a US health tech company. And they are the developer of na t device. This device delivers cranial stimulation to reduce opioid cravings and other symptoms of withdrawal. And Ellen has over 25 years of experience working in the health and social care and criminal justice sectors in the UK and Ireland and in the US working in nonprofits and government and private organizations with a special focus in the treatment of addiction. And Owen has seen any tea and action for over 10 years. From 2010 to 2014. He was part of a UK based program called Scott net, which was a successful pilot in Scotland using any tea. And he is now supporting the delivery of the company's activities in the UK in the US. And then the very, very exciting upcoming randomized control trial that is taking place here in the United States. They are doing it in partnership with Wayne State University, which is in Michigan and Isaiah house, which is a treatment program in Kentucky. There's a lot to learn, get ready. There's so much hope in this episode. And so with that, I'll let you listen in to my recent conversation with Owen fielding with Matt recovery ln Welcome to hope stream. I'm thrilled to have you here today. I know you are within weeks of going into FDA trials, which I cannot even imagine what all that entails. So thank you for taking an hour out of your day and talking with me for the podcast. I really appreciate it.
Owen 04:56
Thank you so much for having me on the show.
Brenda 04:58
Yes, well I'm assuming that most listeners might have already listened to the episode number 83, with Norman Stone, who directed a film about this technology that we're going to talk about today. So that's one perspective on any t and what it is. But I am really glad to be talking with you to dive a little bit more into the actual technology to call it a technology. I'm never really sure what to call it.
Owen 05:25
I guess it's actually you will refer to as health technology, I guess.
Brenda 05:29
Yeah, yeah. So diving into that, and just learning a little bit more about it. So people can feel a little bit more informed and educated about what this actually is, we've seen the human side of what it can do. But learning the nuts and bolts of it is great as well. However, we are a group of parents. So we'll have to have the not the dumbed-down version. That's not what I want to say. But the layman's terms, for talking about this. Yeah. So that we can understand. Before we do that, maybe you can just give us a quick background on how in the world you came to be doing this? How did you get to be doing what you're doing today? And really working with this technology?
Owen 06:12
That's a good question. somewhat by accident. I've been working in social care and addiction treatment for big part of my life. And I was working in a rural rehab here and office and Galloway, when a guy called Joe Winston appeared on the scene. And he brought this device and he chose the Chief Exec of NET device. I was skeptical because I'd seen folks go cold turkey. In fact, that's what the rehab, that was the rehab methodology we used and that particular facility in which I worked. I was quite skeptical about the claims of this device. But within a few days of seeing the guys a user and experienced practically no withdrawal symptoms of a no craving eating, sleeping. I was quite blown away by it.
Brenda 07:04
And what year was that? Like? When did you start seeing this?
Owen 07:08
Wow, that would be probably 2009. Okay. So a while ago now?
Brenda 07:14
Yeah, go? Yeah. Yeah.
Owen 07:16
So that particular not-for-profit eventually came to an end, you know, the money run out. And I contacted you and said, that device, if you need help to get the news out there or do something with it, I'd be happy to help. Little did I know that a couple months later, he would call me up and see, actually, I've got a gig for you. And that gig ended up being four years long. And some other pieces of work come into them up until now. So I thought quite a long history, you know, was negative base.
Brenda 07:49
Yeah, I was able to watch the Final Fix. And so I saw kind of the history all the way back to the 70s, which is just mind-boggling. But for you even back from 2009, this is a long time that you've been working on this. And I got to believe it's been a little frustrating to not have maybe the pickup and the approval that it seems like this means.
Owen 08:14
Yeah, it's frustrating. But actually, if this was easy, everybody would be doing it. Very true. This is this is a very pioneering field below electrical stimulation as a medical treatment has been around and been researched for well over 100 years now. This just started to become more recognized and accepted in the Western world.
Brenda 08:37
That's amazing. So when we talk about NET, what we're talking about is neuromodulation. So maybe you can give us the layman's definition of what that is and how that's different because like you said, there are other forms of stimulation. So how does this? What is it? And then how is it different than those other forms?
Owen 08:57
Okay, so I'll give you a definition from the International neuromodulation society. Because it's best we are not an approved device in the US so we can't give our own definition. But basically, that means your modulation is the alteration of nerve activity through targeted delivery of a stimulus. So IE net device or similar, such as electrical stimulation to specific neurological sites in the body, typically, on the head somewhere, either through electrodes in our case that just was one behind each year on the mastoid bone or a montage of electrodes across the front of the head. Different companies use different methodologies and that basically helps to restore function or relieve symptoms that have a neurological basis.
Brenda 09:48
Okay, so alteration of nerve activity basically is the layman's term for that. That makes sense. And so with this In all the work that you're doing, is it the goal to then transition somebody from active use? Maybe they're using heroin or meth or cocaine? Is the goal to get them to something like a Suboxone? Or Vivitrol? Or is it to? Is it possible? Or is the goal to get them completely substance-free? Because I think that that's a confusing thing that we see. Because we hear so much, especially in the US about MAT, MAT, everything is MAT. So I'd be curious to know kind of what the goal of somebody using NET would be.
Owen 10:38
The goal of somebody using NET would be to transition from taking drugs, be they illegal or prescription drugs on both to zero drugs. Okay, some other stimulation devices. In fact, I think all of the other stimulation devices are bridging devices. So they would bridge the person from say heroin to to MAT, to a place of stability, and some people want that, but some people want complete abstinence.
Brenda 11:06
Right. Right. Yes, because I have seen a couple of other devices where that is the goal to transition to MAT. So it really in the Final Fix, I was shocked to see that some of these guys were trying to get off Suboxone, which I I guess I wasn't aware that it can be so debilitating to somebody on a long term basis. So that was really, really fascinating. Is that what you've seen? Or do you see a mix of different situations where people are maybe coming off of more of an illicit substance versus MAT,
Owen 11:40
we see a mix, but to be honest, you'll notice yourself as time has gone on. From the 80s When I first became involved in treating addicts, heroin was heroin. But now if somebody takes heroin, it's, it's got talcum powder, it's got concrete, brick dust, it's got all sorts of stuff in it. You know, and typically, people are using secondary drugs. When when we first started using NET and Scotland and then Kentucky on an investigational basis, we will have a handful of people who are using just methadone or just heroin, and that's honestly all about taking, but no secondary drugs, polydrug use, it would be unusual to have somebody testing positive justify just for methadone.
Brenda 12:28
Right, right. Yeah, it's it is very rare to say somebody is only on one. And so that's what I think is fascinating to about in the little bit that I do understand about na t is that it does work for those different substances. And in the film to you see somebody you see that situation. So that's amazing. Because, you know, we do have things like suboxone for opioids, but nothing for somebody who's trying to you know, get off of meth or cocaine, there's just nothing out there for that. So I think that and alcohol, I mean, there's just kind of the possibilities just open up when you think about that. And so one thing I know that the my community in particular is moms and as parents really see and struggle with in helping their kids is marijuana. It is so powerful today, it is not even the same substance that it was, you know, back in the 70s, or 80s, or 60s or whenever you want to talk about it. And they're really, really struggling with that. So it's very different, obviously, than a hare you know, somebody who's an IV, heroin user or math user, but it's really crippling these kids and their ability to function. Is any t something that would be would they be a candidate for that? Or maybe you can talk about who is a good candidate and who isn't?
Owen 13:54
I guess those are two separate questions. Yes, we've found that to be effective in treating marijuana in fact, in any psychoactive substance, or combination of psychoactive substances. In this particular case in the US, and this this forthcoming randomized clinical study, we will only be testing that an opioid use disorder. And so we will be looking to have FDA clearance for opioids with NET so it's one drug at a time basically, until we can satisfy the via thorough medical authorities.
Brenda 14:36
Wow, that has to be a little frustrating, because I can imagine you this trial is so I mean, I don't know anything about it other than its quadruple, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, quadruple blind, and it's going to be a full year, which that feels very, very rigorous.
Owen 14:53
It's extremely rigorous, rigorous, does it keep guests from understanding so that this is all for good reason. Because if you think about it, we're talking about an actual class to a medical device. If you're a parent or a substance user, and you want to use a device, like NET device or want to learn similar devices, you want to know that it's FDA approved, you want to know that it's been rigorously tested, and what the likely outcome is going to be for you as a family member or as the patient. And so, yeah, we have to quite rightly, go through due process.
Brenda 15:30
Absolutely. Well, it sounds like it'll be airtight. So I think that's amazing. It'll be reassuring to people here in the US who are looking for that looking for something different. So then, if somebody, I'm just thinking through some of the scenarios, and the parents that I know, and my own personal experience with my son is, there's often a co-occurring disorder, right? So there's something else involved, the substance use is really something that people it's a behavior that people are doing to feel better about either anxiety or depression, or they may have something like a pipe bipolar schizophrenia. Can somebody with those co-occurring disorders use this use any tea? Or how does that work? Because that seems like it could be kind of confusing, but I'd love to hear more about how people with those co-occurring disorders might be able to be helped
Owen 16:25
some of those disorders, if you can call them that could be acceptable. And some of them are not, for example, and in case of pregnancy, there has never been tested in that case. So we, we would say no, to this particular study, schizophrenia, for example, we would say no, because somebody is bipolar or schizophrenic and their own particular stabilizing medication, to engage with net treatment. In this particular study, the individual needs to be drug free during that, that period. And so for a person who's schizophrenic to give up their medication for five to seven days is, is really a non starter. So that person wouldn't be able to participate. But there's a full list of the inclusion and exclusion criteria on the the US clinical trials.gov. website.
Brenda 17:20
Okay, okay, great. That's good to know. Yeah. Because I was wondering about that if you've got medications in the system. And then you're also using device that could be a little bit confusing. And kind of along those lines, we know that, you know, addiction is more than just taking substances. There's a lot that's involved in that, you know, and I saw the film that in five or seven days, these guys are just seemingly so much better physically, and they're active. But then what have you seen? Or what do you sort of envision as the ideal protocol? So if somebody uses any tea for five, 710 days, whatever it is, what then like, what is the optimal because there's still going to be underlying issues of maybe trauma or depression or whatever, how do you see this kind of coming together as a whole treatment for people.
Owen 18:14
But it's a great question and the various two of you to ask that, because there is no cure for addiction, what we are doing with net as to supporting the brain's ability to recover on its own, you know, that the brain is plasticity, we're leveraging that. And that's really all we're doing. It just happens to be extremely effective. And that needs to be done in an integrated fashion, in a treatment program and patient program. So that these guys and girls that are in treatment, you know, the once they become free of drugs, their cognition, their emotional, faculties just turn, just for starters, and that begins to work and be taught through. And so the guilt and the shame comes out the, you know, I've got six months rent to pay, my car should be repossessed, whatever it is, they've got a bunch of stuff to deal with. Maybe they've been traumatized or abused in some way. Maybe they've just been in jail. There's lots of things that the average chronic, you know, drug user needs to deal with. And that's ideally dealt with in rehab for a period where there are proper licensed clinical social workers and so on, who can help that individual through talking therapies through a program of activities, and cognitive rehabilitation, to learn to change the behavior for good not just for a period of being in rehab. And having this typical thing that happens in the UK in the US, actually when rehabs a oh, we have a 98% success rate. What they mean is that the have 90% of the people come into the pool completing the program, that doesn't mean that they're going to stay drug-free, or that they're not going to go back to jail or whatever. And I'm not putting those programs down. But there's a big difference between completing the program and actually, properly changing your behavior through choice. So that you can live, I guess what people would call a normal life.
Brenda 20:25
Right, right. Yeah, because you're right when, so you get everything out of your system. And you're feeling better from the substance standpoint, there could be this huge tidal wave of all the things that have been going on during that time that when you were using that all of a sudden hit. And I think that's where there really is going to need to be those services, that therapy, the counseling, executive functioning skills, those types of things that step in. So I think it might be easy for somebody to look at something like NET and say, wow, like, here's the silver bullet, right, it's like we're gonna come in, people are gonna spend 10 days, and then they're going to be fine. And I think I see that that could be a dangerous misperception because you do have these underlying issues that need to be resolved, which might look very different than the current treatment system that we have, at least here in the US. So that could be, it'll be interesting.
Owen 21:22
It's kind of the same in the UK, to be honest. And some people, some of the guys who saw the film did leave pretty rapidly. And actually were okay, and went back to work and to family and so on. But that's not unusual. But it's, I would say it's a small percentage of treatment cases, most folks who don't have the safety of substances anymore, will, in traditional rehab, detox treatment will, will probably relapse. But because net significantly reduces or in some cases, completely removes cleaving, then the individual has choice, they no longer have that physical clearance, or mental craving for a substance. So they choose the lifestyle and the behavior beyond that, and that's what helps to really speed up and enhance the rehab process and have a more successful outcome, that removal of craving,
Brenda 22:16
oh, that's just huge. That just takes away a huge chunk of what's taking up brain space is the the cravings, the drug seeking the constant having to where's the next fix gonna come from. So it sounds like kind of if I wrapped all that together, that entity isn't necessarily a cure for addiction, it is something that will give people the ability to then address in a craving freeway, the underlying issues that cause that, and wrap themselves around with the support that they need for other things like therapy, maybe for trauma or depression. But it's not a silver bullet that's just going to come in and all of a sudden, everybody's going to be cured from addiction
Owen 23:01
Yeah, that's exactly right. It's not a silver bullet. And I would add to that, that actually, one of the things NET does really well, once folks realized what was happening is that the withdrawal symptoms through treatment, especially through the peak period of opiate withdrawal, you know, day three, day four, there's usually a lot of vomiting, and so on, it's hell, those things don't really happen in NET treatment. And so the fear of approaching rehab, and having withdrawal symptoms, and all those horrible things that happen, physically as removed, and that makes access, the choice of access and rehab, easier when most people realize what NET do.
Brenda 23:44
Absolutely. Because you do hear that in all of the podcast interviews that I've done with people in recovery, that is the first thing they say is I could not go through that withdrawal. I just couldn't do it. I couldn't it maybe they've done it a couple of times. And they know what's coming. And I get it, like who would want to go through that. So I wonder if when, because I am putting it out into the universe that this is going to be approved. It's going to be rolled out and we're gonna see more people using it. But I wonder if you'll have a problem with people not believing it. You know, if somebody is thinking about rehab and thinking, Okay, I want to do this and they get the message. Okay, we have this technology, we have this device that's going to help you through this with no cravings, you know, very little withdrawal symptoms. Are they going to believe it? Because it sounds so crazy.
Owen 24:36
I think some folks do, as you saw on the movie and some folks doing what for instance, one, one patient was extremely positive about believing this is gonna work for me and another patient actually smuggled substance into that small clinical study and we have to remove him from the program because he was endangering other participants and that quite normal and rehab that happens is based on fears that because the individual knows how it feels to withdraw that safety net, it happens.
Brenda 25:11
Right? Right. Well, maybe that's where a documentary like The Final Fix can be extremely useful. So right now, it's great to get the word out to make people aware. But I can see how if somebody is considering this, watching something like that could be like, Oh, actually, I'm watching it with my own eyes. I'm seeing that at work. So I would just hate for people to be doubtful, and then not take advantage of this, if it's available to them. But just because it is so completely different than anything that currently exists, can you just take us through not a minute by minute, but just sort of an overview of somebody decides, Okay, I want to do this. They are, you know, maybe a day clear of substances, they're about ready to use again, but they're like, Okay, I'm, I'm going to try this. What does that experience look like for them coming into a program where they're going to be using NET? What is what would I experience if that was me,
Owen 26:11
coming into a program, Brenda and not entering the clinical study, what would happen is that you would probably already have been assessed in the community. And because it's good practice to reach out to patients who want treatment, and explore what supports they already have in place, what are they currently doing? The self that demonstrates the walking towards sobriety, because sobriety without drugs, is typically a difficult thing to do without any tea. But similarly, if somebody has used any tea, then they need to realize that tolerance is zero or just about zero. So if they go out and take, you know, I used to take 10 bags, or I'm feeling crappy. Today, I'm going to take half a bag, they could literally overdose on half a bag. So we need to make sure that the individual is ready, willing and able to engage with not just rehab and detox.
Owen 27:08
But what does life look like after that? Can I see myself working and pay my rent, my car payments, you know, all those things, can I commit to my wife, to my kids, all that normal stuff, if that person hasn't been able to engage with that for 10 or 20 years, then that's that stuff might seem really scary. So we need to make sure that person is ready. And then when they do hit rehab, they're starting to go into withdrawal. We apply the device, and then the individual, it's about the size of a smartphone, the individual has that on their person. But we're at for five days, typically, sometimes up to seven days. But we're like 24 hours a day, and they have control over the intensity of the stimulation. And that's basically it.
Owen 27:58
They can sleep with it. They can eat while they're using it, they can exercise, they can engage in the program. But that's typically what we would see up to d3 normally and rehab an individual would be becoming more sick, they're vomiting more, more and more diarrhea, restlessness, not sleeping, sweating. Really heavy flu like symptoms, JUMPY legs, those things typically don't happen with any tea. So what you see, within the first half an hour started treatment as the person relaxes, the less anxious within the first day or so they're starting to eat sleep between sort of day three to day five, the they're looking to start to come off. Net, depending on what they've been using. When certainly within day five, typically ready to switch it off, start switching off and experiment with it and see how it feels. Because they've really think about it. They've been in rehab before they've got this great device on the feeling great. The look and the presenting as you and I are no clear minded, eating normal. And the thinking if I switch this thing off to give it up, well, I start to withdraw, or I started to crave. So of course, that's one of the reasons why it's it's self attenuated, if you like. So the individual has control over that we don't they decide what benefit they're getting from that and when to stop, stop that typically they'll start to summon sometimes we'll get a mild headache, and feel a bit agitated by it. So we'll start to stretch off and then the leave off longer and longer. And then typically, you know, we know that. So that's a typical patient presentation.
Brenda 29:44
That is incredible. Yes. And when you see it and I'm I'm working to try and get as many people to see as possible, but when you see the people it is very, very surprising to see how great they feel. And then is it sort of the vision that somebody would then. And I guess this would vary depending on the person stay in that facility or wherever they are in an inpatient type program, or that they could potentially leave and do some sort of an intensive outpatient. I'm just thinking of the current model and how it's set up and how this completely just kind of doesn't work with the way that we've currently got treatments set up. And so I guess if if a program wanted to offer this, they were they're really going to have to rethink their services, I would imagine.
Owen 30:34
Yeah, because the typical business model, and certainly in their, the private treatment sector in the UK, here, obviously, duration, the state determines income stream for the provider. So the short duration of stay, blah, blah, blah, yeah, that needs to be looked at by the providers. I guess there are ways to turn that around. And our business sense,
Brenda 30:59
right, it feels a little bit like it's going to be trying to turn a tanker around. Because when you think about the treatment programs, and the insurance companies and how integrated they are with, like you said, the length of stay, the approval, the medical necessity, all the things that the parents who listened to my podcast deal with, it just kind of implodes that. So it'll be really interesting to see what happens. But it does seem like at least from what I saw in the film, that people would be in a state of mind to enter into, and be more accepting and able to cope with a therapy session, or a group session to where they can focus. So whether that is inpatient, or outpatient, or whatever it is, it just feels like the people are much more able to function in that way, regardless of how they're getting the help
Brenda 31:57
But I'm really glad you said that about overdosing and tolerance, because I was thinking, wow, it's almost like, you know, somebody has been in jail for a year. And they had to go through that most jails, at least here do not offer ma t. So they're not getting Suboxone, they're not getting naltrexone or anything. And, you know, we have, and I'm sure you have the same thing, we have such a high incidence of overdose, when people leave incarceration because their tolerance is down. They're out, life is hard. You take something in it, you know, today, it'll have fentanyl in it for sure. So that is a really, really good point. And so I'm glad to hear that there is an upfront process to talk about that and to say, this isn't the silver bullet, what are you going to be willing to do after this? Because you would be at such a high risk?
Owen 32:49
Yes, so key, and Scotland, when we ran the ScotNET pilot, it was actually a condition of, of providing treatment, we would not provide treatment to an individual, unless they had actual evidence of engagement and community supports the will in regular contact with their doctor or prescriber, you know, they had a place to stay, blah, blah, blah, you know, it could because it's too, yeah, it's just too dangerous to assume that everybody can just turn up on spec, get treatment, believe and then, you know, go and chase about how to win if they get bored.
Brenda 33:27
Right, right. And there, there will be so much to deal with. So that period between, okay, I am now feeling great physically? And how do I then get the rest of my life to start to fall into place and feel great, could be really a vulnerable place for people to be without the support that they need? So Wow, that's incredible. What do you think, you know, if you kind of fast forward 10 years, let's skip the year that it's going to take to get the approval for opioids, and then maybe you'll you'll move on and get approval for other drugs. But let's kind of tie machine forward 10 years, what do you think the future of addiction looks like? What do you think? How is this going to impact has NET and impact? What things are going to be looking like in, let's call it 10 years?
Owen 34:18
That's a good question. I guess this is well, I've been researching this company's been researching that sort of treatment modality if you like for a very long time, though. And if you dig around on the internet, you can find things like the International Society of Addiction Medicine, the new interest group neuroscience interest groups, or Eisah. Nick, for example, there's about 250 Addiction specialists, professors neuroscientists engaged in researching transcranial stimulation, magnetic stimulation for the treatment of addiction, deep brain stimulation, globally. There are 1000s of papers and journals every year on this subject, because it is growing, not just in terms of popularity with, with patients who currently use magnetic stimulation for the treatment of depression, which is one of the FDA-cleared indicators in the US. There are lots of things like that going on just now.
Owen 35:21
So I would expect that in 10 years time, the FDA have already started to clear similar electrical stimulation devices for all sorts of conditions. They are globally there's the strong interest in and pain management and nerve stimulation to help somebody to walk again, you know, it's just such a huge, huge field, Elon Musk has brain Integration Program at the moment, human brain interpretation program that's fascinating as well, I think it's such a huge field brand, or that the future looks very positive. And when you think about it, the human brain is not just a lump of green, white matter of sort of three and a half pounds of weight, it uses 20% of your body's energy every day. But it only weighs three pounds, and there's all our electricity, that's magnetic field. There's the neurotransmitters, the serotonin and dopamine and so on. There's there's a whole bunch of things about the brain that is known.
Owen 36:22
But there's a lot of stuff that we don't know about the brain and this field. And so we will probably see more studies done where there's imaging, there's, you know, scans and imaging done to look at the cues. So persons may be undertaking net treatment will be scanned an MRI scanner, they'll be looking at cused of looking at needles or looking at a bag of heroin to see, you know, post-treatment, can this imagery stimulate? The dopamine receptors, for example, is fascinating. This is a huge field. And I think we're always beginning to scratch the surface of it. But the future looks bright.
Brenda 37:02
Yes, I agree. I think the research and I would be curious to know, do you think that this could ever be and maybe it is today, I just don't know, could something like any t be used as a prevention methodology? So if somebody is starting to struggle, they're, they're not, you know, actively addicted. They're not in that place where maybe you would find somebody who needs to use any tea to come off of a drug. But is there a role for this in prevention at all?
Owen 37:36
Yes, yeah, absolutely. For example, if somebody is just out of surgery, especially in a country, like the US where medication is expensive, let's, for example, imagine that they can no longer afford to pay for pain meds, what are they going to do? They're going to go and buy heroin? Yeah, if they need to medicate. Why not have any treatment and said, to come off that prescribed opioid, we found a small number of people who hadn't yet net treatment relapse, and quickly realize they made a mistake. And come back before they become to mesh to addiction again, and yeah, so prevention tool for that individual to save the life basically, and stop them live in a cardboard city again.
Brenda 38:27
Right. Right. And then also, when you were talking about that, I was just wondering, would this be effective for other non substance type addictions like gambling or shopping or overeating or sex addiction? Or is there? How does that work with the brain? Or is this really specifically for substance use?
Owen 38:50
The moment we are asserting this just for substance use treatment for those other sort of behavioral addictions, like addiction to porn, and food, and gambling and so on, those are actually extremely complex addictions to to solve, and there is a bunch of support and treatments out there for for those conditions at the moment, who knows what the future will look like, but for now, and for them, you know, for the foreseeable future, we'll be we'll be focusing on treating substances.
Brenda 39:25
Right, right. Is NET available anywhere right now globally? Or is it I know it's not in the US because you're just starting the trials, but is it being used anywhere in the world currently?
Owen 39:37
No.
Brenda 39:37
Okay. So people just have to wait, you listeners, you just have to wait. Because I know, I know. They're over there like on the edge of their seat. I mean, they would literally pay a billion dollars to put their child on airplane and take them somewhere to do this. So okay, good to know, not available, but your trial will be a year. And then what do you kind of looking at from a timeline, I know you don't know for sure. But let's say a year from now, the FDA approves this, what does it look like to actually make this something that somebody could get in their community?
Owen 40:12
Well, I guess first of all, we need to have arrangements with health insurance companies.
Brenda 40:18
Okay, so 100 years from now.
Owen 40:21
Yeah, And obviously, with providers too, because some providers won't want to perhaps use a tool like that, because impact significantly on the duration of state facilities, I think both not for profit, and some private companies will, depending on their ethos bent on the aims of the company, they will be more focused on actual outcomes, rather than completing a program or duration of stay as an indicator of success. Right? Quite how the US will get there, I don't know, perhaps, you know, payment will be made, but based on actual results, so as the as the person drug free at the point of remission from, from rehab, you know, see six months down the line, three months, from there, six months from now, there's still drug free, then the other portion of the payment, who knows? That's an interesting model that's been explored in the UK.
Brenda 41:19
Okay, I was gonna ask if there's movement anywhere on this to start thinking about, you know, this, if I was a treatment provider, like, let's say, a private pay treatment provider, I would have to start thinking about this. And now if I wanted to use it, because it completely disrupts my marketing, my insurance, relationships, my staffing, maybe even my physical location, my facilities have what I would need. So it seems like a pretty big shift that's gonna need to take place, if a provider says yes, I want to offer this, that's gonna look pretty different.
Owen 41:57
Yeah, you're right. It's a paradigm shift. But I guess, you know, if you think about your company reputation, what your actual output looks like, if you think about throughput of patients, so if somebody only needs, you know, a five-day NET treatment, typically and a much, much shorter stay, and rehab, because cognitively, they're much more aware and much more capable, they can plan more safely, then that means that you can increase the patient load across the year with a shorter duration and still make money. True, and impact on GDP of having folks back in the community, working the jobs paying the rent, the long term health economics, the quality of life years adjusted for that individual, and for the company, they work for the community they live in for the taxes they'll pay, that has a huge kickback. You know, it's going to take some time, but that's a huge kickback on the rest of American society. You know, those are the things that need to be considered. It's just not just about the short term was like for my rehab, as you know, as I provide financially. Yes,
Brenda 43:13
absolutely. I think that's very interesting. And it'll be interesting to see if somebody does some studies on GDP, because, you know, there are companies today who are saying, I can't get employees, I can't get an employee base, who can pass a drug test, and come work for me. And so Exactly, that's a massive economic impact that could, you know, any tea could be part of, and again, I don't want to position it as the silver bullet, but any tea with the follow on services that need to happen, could make a massive change in that all of a sudden, if I have a construction company, I might be able to find five people to work for me who could pass a drug test, where I can't find that today. So huge, huge impact.
Owen 44:01
Absolutely. You're right. The other area that I think about is traumatized military vets, and also folks in prison, why not have treatment programs in prison so that people leave prison without craving? Right? They're not chasing drugs in jail. We know. For example, I know that some of the jails in Kentucky, you know, there's more drugs than the jails and they're on the streets. And it's the same here in Scotland. Folks enter jail without a heroin habit and leave jail where the heroin habit is crazy. And so next might be a tool. Not that would allow the penitentiary as the present systems to create truly drug free ways where there's a bunch of patients who are completely drug-free. They're not interested in bringing drugs in because they've got no craving. And even if it's just small pockets of of the present community that are begun in that way, and then discharged from prison, and with a different mindset, then that's got to be a winner.
Brenda 45:07
Right? I think and what you see, when you watch the film that you just see, the mindset and the mood and the just the cognitive presence that these people have, within three days of a severe substance, addiction, we're not talking just, you know, I'm smoking a little bit of marijuana here and there, these guys were very severely addicted. And so when you see that mindset shift in that ability to enjoy life and have fun, it's just so is such a game-changer, that you then you play that forward. And you think about, if that's not for people, if that's 40,000 people, or 400,000 people, the difference that would make in our communities.
Owen 45:59
Yeah, it's huge. And I guess, if we come back for a couple of minutes to the sort of clinical or the physiological aspects of this, this treatment, and actually, more importantly, that the brain's amazing ability, you know, the plasticity. So what we're really doing, we hypothesize that what we're doing is stimulating neurotransmitters. So typically, we're looking at the endorphins. So that's the physical and emotional pay your transmitter, the dopamine. So that's the reward neurotransmitter. For example, the serotonin, so the mood, behavior and sleep neurotransmitter. So if you just take those aspects alone, physical and emotional pain, reward, good behavior, and sleep, if those things are turned around within a few days, and they continue to be normal, and increase in strength and activity beyond that, that's what seems to happen, then it's no wonder that patients present as cognitively aware, willing, and able,
Brenda 47:05
yes, yes. Because those are, those are the major ways that you cope with life. You have
Owen 47:12
lost the foundations of human behavior.
Brenda 47:15
Yes, yes. And so when you can restore those, I don't know, all of their stories, but I do remember one of the guys I think had been on Suboxone or something for 10 or 20 years, am I am I recalling that right? Yeah. So to come in just a matter of days to a completely different physical state, sleeping, eating, just all the things that we take for granted, as people who are not struggling with addiction, we just, you know, that's like air, we don't even think about those things. To have those things restored is just got to be so transformational for them.
Brenda 47:55
And the hope you could see in their faces of like, now I feel I can, I can go do the things that I want to do be with my family returned to my job. It's just so amazing to see that happen in such a short amount of time. And I think the other thing that I think I saw, and what I think is so great about this is it provides a level of dignity to these people who have been so you know, stigmatized, kind of forgotten about swept over in the corner. Like, I don't know what to do with those people.
Brenda 48:33
And in a typical detox is not pretty, my son went through it several times. It is horrific. And so I think this provides a level of dignity and respect to them to say you are a valuable human being, we have a way for you to change and to make changes in your body. That doesn't require you to go through this hell that is the traditional detox. So that was just something that I saw sort of as a side note that I thought, wow, how empowering for them to be able to have that control, not that experience.
Owen 49:13
Yeah, exactly. And then And then beyond that, the next stage at the end of treatment, or maybe leaving rehab as the patient has a choice, then do I return to drug use? Because I don't have any cravings. Why would I ever return to drug use? Or do I stay, you know, straight?
Brenda 49:32
Yeah. Incredible. Is there anything that you wish you had known? So let's like go back to 2009. Anything you wish you had known when you started this adventure that you're on? Looking back that you think, Hmm, wow, I wish I would have known that.
Owen 49:50
That's a great question. I think I wish I'd known more about the human brain. Just how amazing is that? That plasticity that works? leveraging and accelerating v net. If I'd known more about the brain, then I guess I would have probably been more keen to recommend that to more people and to actually, I guess help to drive it forward and a more meaningful way back way back in 2009 2010. It wasn't until I actually started working with the company that I began to study that and understand begin to understand just the basics of I mean, I'm not a neuroscientist or a doctor. But when you look at that often enough, and you see it happening with your own eyes, if it drives you to ask, you know, why is this thing working, it's working, I can see that the person is not running to the bathroom or not vomiting that eating like a horse, or exercising. And when I began to research it, then it just all made sense. So yeah, actually, I don't regret the My Choices. But it would have been nice to understand that a bit sooner, I guess
Brenda 51:04
Yeah, the brain is just so fascinating. And I think you're right, we know so little about this amazing tool that we all have between our ears. So that's good to hear. And I know you've faced a lot of obstacles, have watched the film, but then also a lot of sort of the surrounding material. And there's just been huge obstacles in getting any t out to people way back, you know, from when Meg Patterson was working on it. What keeps you going? Because it seems like it's an uphill battle, you're kind of like trying to run uphill with a lot on your back. What keeps you going in this battle that you're in?
Owen 51:45
I think seeing a change an individual, the absolute change the joy, the freedom that brings to the individual and haven't been involved directly or indirectly, in the treatment of several 100. People know, with net device. Okay, if you're, if you're a government official, you might see that Seiling total evidence, you know, I accept that. But anecdotally, I've seen several 100 lives change and stay changed. That drives me forward, because that should be widely available as a treatment choice not to usurp Matt, but to actually work alongside Matt complementary to Matt, so that a treatment like net or similar simulation devices available, should that individual make the choice to access that type of treatment rather than Matt, that that's what drives me forward. It's about the quality. No matter what the race, or social standing or financial standing, an individual should have access to safe medical treatment that meets their needs.
Brenda 52:57
Right, in a very humane way, which is what I really love about it - So beautiful to see.
Owen 53:04
Yeah, exactly. That's what drives me forward. And other guests, the owners of the company, too.
Brenda 53:10
Yeah. Well, I feel like I just got a PhD and everything related to this. Thank you for, for walking us through in a really understandable way. What any tea does, we are sending you a million positive vibes for the trial, which is starting in just in a couple weeks, right in November 2021, just in case somebody is listening to this three years down the road.
Owen 53:33
Sure, yeah. And that study is open to every state in the US. And everybody who wishes to participate can apply. They just need to look at the clinical trials.gov website, the inclusion and exclusion criteria are there. And of course, that doesn't mean that and this study, because it's randomized, the individual may receive sham net treatment, or they may receive active strip net treatment. That's that's not done to us that sent to the biostatistician. So we won't know who's receiving that treatment, but the individuals who want to participate need to understand that that the will they may not receive ACTIVE Net, but they will be offered medication instead should not work out for them. So nobody's left high and dry.
Brenda 54:19
Yeah, I was gonna say how that's a very complex dilemma. When you know that you have something that could help and then these people are not getting it and you're watching them really suffer potentially. That could be from an ethical standpoint, that's a really interesting, I never thought about that. When you're doing a trial like this.
Owen 54:39
Yeah. Well, this study has IRB approval. So in terms of ethics, it's it's all being cleared to safe and ethical. So participants need to have no fear about that, they will be offered. In fact, any participant can ask for medication should they should they choose at any point in the study?
Brenda 55:00
Okay, and I'll put a link. So it's clinical trials.gov is the the website, because I'll put a link to that in the show notes for if there's a treatment provider who's listening, you can look at that.
Owen 55:13
Yeah. And you're looking for the NET device study with Wayne State University.
Brenda 55:18
Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it, I will probably be calling you down the road to see how the trial went. And we have lots of moms who are sending all kinds of positive vibes to you. And we really, really appreciate you sharing this time with us in the midst of everything that you're doing right now to start this trial. So thank you so much.
Owen 55:42
Thank you, Brenda. Thanks for having us on your podcast and thanks for all the work that you do. Kidding, recovery and support to so many people in the US is vitally important. So thank you.
Brenda 55:55
Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to go to the shownotes, you can always find those at Brenda zane.com forward slash podcast. Each episode is listed there with full transcript, all of the resources that we mentioned, as well as a place to leave comments if you'd like to do that. You might also want to download a free ebook I wrote called hindsight. Three things I wish I knew when my son was addicted to drugs. It's full of the information I wish I would have known when my son was struggling with his addiction. You can grab that at Brenda zane.com forward slash hindsight. Thanks again for listening and I will meet you right back here next week.
Brenda 44:54
Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to go to the show notes, you can always find those at At Brendazane.com/podcast, each episode is listed there with a full transcript, all of the resources that we mentioned, as well as a place to leave comments if you'd like to do that. You might also want to download a free ebook I wrote called hindsight. Three things I wish I knew when my son was addicted to drugs. It's full of the information I wish I would have known when my son was struggling with his addiction. You can grab that at Brendazane.com/hindsight. Thanks again for listening and I will meet you right back here next week.