Craving Spring: How a Greek Myth Fueled a Mother’s Quest To Save Her Daughter, with Ann Batchelder
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@hopestreamcommunity.org
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guest: Ann Batchelder, Author, Craving Spring
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About this episode:
When Ann Batchelder discovered her daughter’s suicidal thoughts, bulimia and substance misuse, she desperately sought wisdom in the places many of us do: therapy, 12-step programs, and Buddhist teachings. But it was an ancient Greek myth that gave her the greatest solace and understanding of parenting a wayward child. As Ann“did the work” to preserve mindfulness and realism about what she could control, she also began writing about her family's experiences.
Episode resources:
Craving Spring, A mother’s quest, a daughter’s depression, and the Greek myth that brought them together (buy here)
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Ann: [00:00:00]
I had misunderstood what letting go was. I thought letting go was letting your kid just fall apart and not help them. And what I learned was that, with the story anyway, it's natural and normal for parents, for mothers especially, to be totally obsessed with helping their kid. That's just normal. You can't let go at that point because you've got to be an advocate.
If your kid isn't able to take care of themselves, you have to figure out how to get them help. But at some point when they're getting healthier, you have to step back and that progression is not a straight line.
Brenda: You're listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who [00:01:00] misuses substances, is in a treatment program or finding their way to recovery. You're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and follow mom to a child who struggled.
This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So, after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show. Every once in a while, someone reaches out to me about being on the podcast and I find their story really interesting and intriguing.
And the conversation you are going to hear in just a few minutes is a result of one of those emails that landed in my inbox. Anne Batchelder is the author of the brand new book, Craving Spring, a mother's quest, a daughter's depression, and the Greek myth that brought them [00:02:00] together. Can you see why I was intrigued?
Let me tell you a little bit about Anne. She served as editor of Fiber Arts Magazine for 10 years. Later, as guest curator for the Asheville Art Museum, Anne designed and developed three major contemporary art exhibitions featuring internationally recognized artists. In past lives, she earned an English degree from Kenyon College, a master's degree in psychotherapy from Simmons University, was acting director of the International Studies Program at Lesley University, an account executive for Manhattan Advertising Agency, And the director of special events for the Brooklyn Academy of Music.
I would say a very well rounded woman. As Anne writes on her website, the day her teenage daughter announced that she had suicidal thoughts was the beginning of the end for Anne. The end of her thinking that she could protect her daughter from suffering and the end of assuming [00:03:00] she knew what she was doing as a mother.
Those dark years between mothering a young child and guiding an adult daughter were like navigating a sailboat through a hurricane. The sea is turbulent, the foreboding winds merciless. Craving Spring is a gripping tale that elegantly illustrates the relevance of the ancient Greek myth of Demeter and Persephone to modern day mother daughter struggles.
The book takes you deep into the heart of a mother's love. While demonstrating the power of myth to illuminate a path towards healing. I won't say anymore because I really want you to hear it from Anne. This was a beautiful and uplifting conversation. She's an incredibly special woman. Take a listen now to me and Anne Batchelder, author of Craving.[00:04:00]
Welcome Anne. I'm so, so thrilled to have you here. I'm, um, really looking forward to this conversation, mom to mom. Uh, we have a lot. Well, thank you. We have a lot of similarities in our background. So, um, I, I also, um, a little bit from like the sidelines looking at how. Books come to life because I feel like I have a book up here in my head and it, I don't know how to get it out.
So we may have to do like a little off the off the record conversation about that. But anyway, I am excited to talk with you. You have a book coming out, Craving Spring. I love that title. Um, let's just start there. Usually I start kind of in a rewind mode, but I'd love to start with, how did you pick that as your title?
I think it's so beautiful.
Ann: When I started writing, I started out journaling just to, for my sanity, um, when my daughter [00:05:00] was going through all of her addiction issues. And I haven't really, I wasn't writing. I was an editor of a magazine, but I hadn't done anything creatively myself. But once I started putting this I realized I was getting chapters and putting this book together, and at first I thought it was about her.
And then the more I wrote, I realized it was about me. And then the more I dove into what, what, what it was about me, I realized that parents also have cravings. We all have attachments and we, my craving was to, um, have my daughter be all better. And part of this, part of the story, part of my book is, involves a Greek myth and the same of Demeter and Persephone, um, and Demeter is the mother and she is craving for her daughter to be returned as well.
So when [00:06:00] Demeter returns, it's springtime. So I think all, all parents. Hope for their children to be happy and everything to be normal and everything to be healthy. And I just felt like we're all craving spring on some level.
Brenda: That is so true. So well said. I know a lot of parents who are craving that right now.
Well, let's, let's do a little bit of a walk back to just so we understand sort of where, where this all, um, generated from. And I know your daughter struggled with, with several challenges, mental health and substances. So maybe to whatever degree you want, um, share with us where this originated from and, and what your daughter went through.
Ann: We were sort of the normal, typical family. My husband and I had good jobs. Our kids were happy in school. Everything seemed to be fine. [00:07:00] I knew around puberty. My daughter started having some issues with depression and social anxiety and things like that. So, um, I sort of figured it was just pre teenage adjustment and when she.
Um, when she got to high school, she, and she was about 16 years old, she came home one day and walked into the kitchen and collapsed, crying on the floor and said, I wanted to drive my car into a tree. And that's when I first realized she's really depressed. This is not, this is clinical depression. This is not just teenage hormonal stuff.
And then she also admitted that she had an eating disorder and had been the Laymate for months on a daily basis. And I didn't know any of this was going on. So, um, so I [00:08:00] panicked and looked for experts and read everything I could find. I really didn't understand eating disorder. I didn't know. This is, this was 2000.
I don't know, must have been around 2012. Um, or no earlier than that, um, but around that time. So a lot of people back then didn't understand the connection between eating disorder and addiction. And so it was all separate and there wasn't a dual diagnosis very much out there. And so it was really a struggle to try to understand what in the world was happening.
Why was she going through this? We had some family history of depression. That kind of thing. So, it wasn't a total surprise, but I, I found a eating disorder therapist and we, she worked on that and she really wanted to get better. And so, I thought things were going well. She started joining, she joined the crew team.
She seemed [00:09:00] happier, that kind of thing. And when she was going off to college, I thought, Oh, here it's a new slate. She'll meet new friends. She'll be excited. She'll, you know, This is all great. So what I didn't realize was that her last year in high school, she started doing a lot more drugs and pills and this and that, not just weed, but you know, other things too.
So by the time she got to high school, I mean, by the time she got to college, there was A lot of opportunity to experiment more and she called at one point and said, um, I need to come home. And I didn't understand what that was about. So she transferred and she came home and about maybe. She started going to school at the local university, and the following, um, summer, she said, I, [00:10:00] I, I need you to come to a therapy session with me.
I have something I want to tell you. And I thought, Oh, great. You're going to, we're going to have a breakthrough. We're going to understand each other. We're going to communicate. This is wonderful. This is what I've been waiting for. And I sat down at the therapy office and she basically said, I was addicted to heroin in college, but I'm all better now.
Well, I knew that wasn't possible. Um, so... We spent a long time, her in denial, me freaking out, Terrified that she was gonna have an accidental overdose or something. You know, she was, she had stopped using at that point. She, she'd gone through withdrawal on her own, believe it or not, in her bedroom. Yeah, she's a strong kid, but she didn't understand addiction.
I didn't understand really addiction and I'm not gonna give away the whole book, but the story goes on anyway that, um, That the story then [00:11:00] became about me and my obsession to rescue her and how I was just a mess. And I remember, um, going into, Uh, a therapist office and the therapist said, oh, you're just like Demeter.
And I said, well, who's Demeter? What are you talking about? She said, don't you remember the Greek myth about Demeter and Persephone? And I said, well, tell me about it. She said, well, Demeter, the daughter gets dragged to hell and she freaks out and she lets all the people starve. She was the goddess of the harvest.
And she doesn't do her job, and she forgets her duties because she's so obsessed with helping her child. And I basically said, I love this woman , right? I know her. I totally, I know her. And, um, you know, all the self help books at that point had all been about how to be the perfect parent and five steps to have, you know, confident children and all these things that just made me feel like I [00:12:00] was doing a bad job as a mom.
And so turning to the myth gave me permission to have a role model who was, there wasn't any blame and shame and stigma back then for what Demeter was going through. So I had, uh, a story or a role model of, well, how did she do this? And what, so I started studying the story and then I realized the parallels.
In my life, as she went through her journey helping figure out how to get her daughter back. She ended up having to learn how to compromise. She had to learn how to let go. She had to learn to see her daughter as an individual and with her own agency and the queen of her own life. And then she, the last thing which was so great was that she, rather than just continuing to try to give advice to her.
Child. She recognized her as an adult and she pivoted [00:13:00] and gave her wisdom to other women. So that's where all of a sudden I thought, well, wait a minute, this is step 12. This is, you know, she's doing it. So that's when I sort of thought. The skill that I needed was to not let go as much as learn how to pivot.
I had to learn how to, um, adjust to the situation, whatever the situation was, and come from a place of compassion. I had misunderstood what letting go was. I thought letting go was letting your kid just fall apart and... Not help them. And what I learned was that with the story anyway, it's natural and normal for parents, for mothers especially, to be totally obsessed with helping their kid.
That's just normal. You can't let go at that point because you've got to be an advocate. If your kid isn't able to take care of [00:14:00] themselves, you have to figure out how to get them help. But at some point when they're getting healthier, you have to step back. And that progression is not... A straight line, as you know, with recovery, it goes up and down and up and down, so you have, each, each time the situation comes up, you have to figure out what is the...
The most helpful thing I can do right now. Yes. And that changes. Yes. On a regular basis. So that took years and took a long time.
Brenda: Yeah. I love the, the concept of pivoting because you're right, it's impossible to just let go. Um, letting go, like you said, letting go, I think it's a bad rap, right? It, it can be mistrued as just like, well.
Um, you know, there you go. Good luck. Good luck with that. Yeah. Come back when you're better. But, but the letting go of the control and the letting go of this idea that I will fix [00:15:00] this is really great, which is so, I love that word pivot. I think that's much more accurate when it comes to what we have to learn how to do.
And you're right. There's no manual. At least I didn't get a manual on how to, oh my gosh, go from. Having a child to having a teen to having a young adult to having an adult and Then, that alone is complicated. Then when you add in mental health struggles, then you add in addiction.
Ann: It goes backwards. All of a sudden, I was, I was, I had a child in high school that I was having to monitor her, all of her breakfast, lunch, and dinner, like she was in grade school.
And it was painful for both of us. Neither one of us wanted to go through that. And again, with drug addiction, it was. It was very hard to realize that because of addiction, she wasn't able to think clearly. She wasn't able to think, [00:16:00] make adult decisions. She wasn't able to, to, um, get beyond that. So I had to help her by showing up for her.
By holding a mirror up for her to see what I could see, that she was a beautiful person, that she was loved, that she was capable, give her hope, um, those are the things that I could do, as opposed to what I was trying to do, which was to fix it. It is
Brenda: our natural tendency to, to want to. especially when we see our child struggling and suffering.
It, like you said, it is just natural. It's sort of baked into our DNA. When you, when you realize what was going on and you start falling apart, did you realize that you were going through trauma or were you just like, I, I just got to go?
Ann: Oh, I, I couldn't breathe. Even going to therapy, or having friends to [00:17:00] talk to, or any of that kind of stuff, I felt so isolated and so alone, I felt so frightened, and so convinced that nobody would understand what I was going through, because my kid could die, and this is serious, and I can't come up for air.
I cannot. Uh, think about my trauma because she was in so much pain. So it wasn't really part of, part of what was great about journaling and writing this book eventually was that it could help me unpack what happened in sort of in hindsight and realize that yes, I was going through post traumatic stress on a regular basis.
I was going through my own trauma. I was, I was, um, triggered all the time and therefore craving. Uh, the wrong thing or craving an outcome that was unsustainable and not realistic. I couldn't control her life. [00:18:00] Well,
Brenda: it feels, at least in my experience, it, when I first started learning about this idea of self care, which I had never heard of, I was like, what are these people talking about?
That sounds like some fancy therapeutic term. So selfish. Yeah. It just felt. decadent, like, what the heck, I'm not gonna go, whatever, take, go on a walk, or, let alone, like, I had girlfriends invite me to a weekend one time when we were in the thick of it, and I was like, are you crazy? Never
Ann: leave. How can I even, yeah.
Brenda: In the work that I do, I see that all the time, it's like, oh no, I will deal with that. And I don't know about you, but I definitely experienced enough physical symptoms, not let alone the mental, right, the brain fog and the inability to do all that, but just the physical breakdown of the human body when it's under that much stress.
for that long. When did that start to shift for you? How did you [00:19:00] turn the corner to, Oh, I actually, was it this, was it this Greek myth? I'm so fascinated by this
Ann: story, by the way. Well, I went through a lot of grief. and denial and stuff before my daughter went to rehab. But my daughter did go to rehab for several months.
And all of a sudden I wasn't responsible for her every move. And so I thought, Oh, I, I can breathe. I can do this again. I, and that's when I started, I had been studying mindfulness for a long time anyway, but that's when I started putting together the Buddhist readings that I was Doing with the 12 steps and started realizing that, uh, everybody is addicted on some level.
We're all on the spectrum. Only, we don't call it addiction, we call it attachment. But we're all attached to outcomes. We'd all like to see happen. We all want our life to work out perfectly and life just doesn't do that. So then what do you do [00:20:00] when that happens? And I think I started meditating more. I started, um, Writing, journaling, doing that kind of stuff, um, and for the first time really processing what was going on with me and trying to understand what was, what would be the most helpful thing for her.
And I clearly got that being afraid was not, for me to be afraid was not helpful. Um, I couldn't help it all the time. I was going to be afraid, but whether I reacted to it, whether I acted on that fear or not was within my control or. Most of the time within my control, and if I blew it, if I slipped, if I had a relapse, I had to learn how to own it.
I had to be responsible. I had to apologize to her. I had to stop trying to be at the perfect mother. And she, she actually said, when you stopped, The [00:21:00] facade of trying to be perfect is when it was easier for me because I didn't have to take care of your emotions, I could just take care of mine. And she also said that, you know, you provided a role model for me and showed me how to be responsible for your emotions too.
So I think that that was really key. And then later, much later, I... Actually, it was when I wrote the book. I didn't write the book for 10 years. I mean, I didn't finish the book for 10 years. So, I had some perspective by then. Meditation, journaling, taking a walk, um, all, breathing, all those things are, are important self care steps for people to stay centered and the most helpful you can be for your child is to come from a place of, of Knowing what your true intentions are, because I was confused what my intentions were.
I thought my intention was to rescue my child and [00:22:00] instead my intention shifted to being able to provide her with, um, compassion and. Hope and, uh, confidence that I believed in her and her ability to get well, I couldn't, I couldn't guarantee it, but I could believe in it. Yeah. So I would
Brenda: love to go back to what you said about when you stop trying to be the perfect mom with all the answers.
I just want to reiterate
Ann: this because it came so beautifully from
Brenda: you that that gave your daughter. Permission to not be responsible for your
Ann: emotions. And do you know that I didn't know that until I finished the book. I finished the book. I didn't let anybody read it because I wanted to be able to write exactly what I wanted to say.
When I finished, I let my [00:23:00] family read it, but especially my daughter. I was very nervous. She sat across from me. I pretended to be doing something else and I was like watching her every move. She would cry sometimes. I was taking deep breaths. She finally finished it. And she looked up and she said, this is a love letter to me, isn't it?
And I said, yes, it is. And then I said, would you like to write the epilogue? And so she wrote, it's just a one page epilogue. So she's, that's in the book. But what she wrote was, You know, my family wasn't always easy, and this and this happened, and I'm going, oh, you know. But then she said, when my mom, she wrote in the epilogue, when my mom dropped the facade of trying to be perfect, it was easier because I didn't feel like I had to take care of her emotions too.
And I thought, that is the book in a nutshell right there. And she wrote it. Oh, I mean, that was it. And I didn't really understand that and put that [00:24:00] together until, until I read that. And I just thought that's it. That's exactly right. Yeah.
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Like, what are a couple of examples of what you did to drop the facade? Because I think we hear this often. It's like, Oh, we don't want to make our kids responsible for our emotions. And we need to quote unquote, do our work. But what did that look like for you?
Ann: I didn't understand this whole, do your work thing.
I hadn't been in 12 step. I didn't know [00:26:00] what it's sort of like, you know, I mean, it's like, what is like a foreign language? My mother was a little bit, I mean, she was lovely and wonderful at everything else, but she was of that generation that didn't, wasn't overbearing at all. And so, of course, as a mother, I tried to be perfect.
I tried to show up for all the practices and all the games and volunteer in the school and... You know, I made sure we have family dinners five nights a week so that we could all grow up and be healthy. And I thought I was doing all the right things. And so, um, what I wasn't doing was being authentic about my own insecurities or my own shortcomings, or, you know, so I think that I was really humbled by her addiction, and I also spent a lot of time.
Um, focusing on my guilt, which didn't help at all because as, as I said in the book, I became a junkie for regret [00:27:00] that I figured if I could own that, that I could also be powerful enough to fix her problems. And so if it was all my fault, it could also be all my solution. And it took me a long time to let go of that.
But when I realized what is my intention, what do I really hope to get out of this? What do I hope for my daughter? If I can't control her situation, if she really has to do her recovery by herself, what is my role as a mother? And once I started investigating that, that my role for an almost adult child, not for a grade school kid, but for an almost adult child was to provide a role model and to give her support and to be a rock when she needed to come back, uh, you know, for security.
And I think the most helpful thing for me was when I investigated my own intentions [00:28:00] and really asked myself, what do I want out of this? Is this ego driven or is this really for my child? Is this to, is this to make me feel better and feel more secure or is this to help her grow? And if it might be uncomfortable for me to, to do that, but that's going to be more important than just telling her to stop drugs and giving her advice and watching her every move and worrying about her recovery and, you know, all that, which of course I was doing all of.
It's what everybody does. Everyone does it. And that's the other thing. We have to have compassion for ourselves. And I don't think there's enough compassion for the parents who go through this trauma of having their kids. in addiction. They don't, it's, it's a really hard. And you go through stages and there's not a lot of people there to say, Hey, you're doing a great job or you're, you're, you're hanging in there or [00:29:00] yeah, I know this is hard.
Why don't you think about it this way instead? Or maybe there's some skills you could learn and not put judgment on it and not put stigma on it, but to just come from a place of compassion instead, you know, people are afraid. And when they're afraid, they judge. They absolutely
Brenda: do. And I agree that we don't give enough credit to the parents who are going through this.
It is a life altering experience. I think people don't understand the moment by moment terror that you live in. Is my child going to live through this day?
Ann: Exactly.
Brenda: And that is a really precarious way to live. It can also, I think, and I, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this now that I am past that stage.
I also think that because I did live in that, um, environment for a while, it's [00:30:00] given me such amazing perspective now and such. beauty in my life because I know what it's like to live like that. What do you think about that? What's your experience?
Ann: Well, I, it gave me a huge amount of respect, uh, for other parents who are going through all different stages and not everybody has an easy outcome.
I understand that. In fact, it was a hard, there was a part. Of me that was afraid to write my book because I didn't want to be coming across as, oh, and everything's fine now. It's not fine. We're continuing to go through a journey where recovery is. You know, just doesn't all of a sudden in, you know, it's a lifelong journey, but some parents clearly, um, lose children to overdose or whatever.
And it's horrible. It's terrifying. Um, but I have to say that having gone through that and having, [00:31:00] like you said, coming to the other side of it, I can't believe how much our family has gained in the process and how close I am to my. daughter and how evolved I feel as a mother, um, with my own, uh, perspective that I don't think I would have, I think I would have just bumbled along thinking everything was fine and not really investigating any of this.
And instead, we've really had to do a deep dive as a family and consider what's really important. Is going to college really important or is staying alive important? Is, you know, what your, how many tattoos you have, or, you know, let's see, what is important now as opposed to what was important 10 years ago?
Um, all of that has changed for me. It's all changed. Well, now you're the
Brenda: mom and I, I, I'm just thinking about your, um, I believe you have a son too, [00:32:00] but he's getting a different version. of mom, right? He's getting this version of mom who isn't afraid to show her flaws, who isn't afraid to be human. What has that
Ann: been like?
Um, it's been interesting because, um, I joke with him and whenever he has a problem, I, I say things like, oh, your parents must have been horrible. And, you know, what a mess. And you know, I can't believe. You know, gee, I'm so sorry for you. And so we have a lot of, we joke around a lot about it as opposed to me pretending to have all the answers, you know, he has learned to speak up for himself in ways that I think I might not have encouraged him to before.
So it's about owning your feelings and about speaking up and taking responsibility. Not only for the mistakes you made, but, or, or for slips or whatever, but also for what you want in your life and how you want.
Um, but I think [00:33:00] just the
honesty in our family of, of saying, okay, let's, let's really talk about what's important. And so it's been healing in many, many ways. I agree.
Brenda: It's, it, it can just open up regardless of how the addiction piece of it, um, works out. There can be such a beautiful shift in how we.
So, um, I, I like what you said about that when your daughter wrote the epilogue, that it was like, wait a minute, our family wasn't perfect, but you know, we have this vision of what we think we've created. And then we have a child who contradicts that either outright or in subtle ways or in, you know, whatever way they do it.
And it can be [00:34:00] very jarring because we're like,
Ann: what do you mean? My husband and I also kind of made a point of we're not going to be those parents that are really like gung ho in the sports, you know, and I mean, we were kind of, um, laid back and just, Do your best. It doesn't matter if you win, but I don't, but we didn't realize that we were putting pressure on our kids in other ways to meet our expectations.
And so I think you can do a lot of things on the surface that you think are working and they're not really working. So you have to dive down and really investigate. And if you look at it as a opportunity to discover. Something fresh. It doesn't have to be shameful, or it doesn't have to be embarrassing, or it doesn't have to be, Oh, I did something wrong.
It's like you're constantly learning a new skill. You're constantly discovering something that's, that's going to [00:35:00] make life even better. And I'm not in a 12 step program right now. I did Al Anon. I did the 12 steps. I had a sponsor. I did all those things. So it's not like I'm a big, you have to do 12 step thing person.
But I honestly, when I was going through it, I was convinced that everybody should go through the 12 steps because it was just an opportunity to be honest and to Um, really work at it, not just go to meetings, but actually do the work, talk a little bit
Brenda: more about the impact of mindfulness, because what I see, and I'm face to face with, with parents all day who, you know, the look it's the, it's.
It's the fear, it's the exhaustion, it's the like, I don't know where my daughter is right now. Look. And I sometimes struggle with saying, you know, mindfulness would be really helpful because I feel like it just seems so wacky. Like [00:36:00] what is she talking about? So I'm wondering how that played out for you and if you could articulate maybe better than I can, how it does actually help when you're living in so much
Ann: fear.
I think that the first thing is getting in touch with your body. And your mind and your heart and your spirit and identifying what emotion is happening in that moment. So, if you're feeling fear, if you're feeling anxiety, um, where is that in your body? What does that feel like? What does that look like?
And I think when you recognize that and think, oh, well, Did something trigger this from my past? I mean, sort of owning, looking back and owning whether you are reacting from a place from your own childhood or your own upbringing or your own stuff. I think that that's the first step. And then the second step is really trying to stay in the present moment.
Every time you find yourself slipping back into the [00:37:00] past or worrying about the future, try to stay right exactly in the present. Like, what is going on in this very moment? And, you know, maybe you don't know where your daughter is, but are you also worrying about what might happen in the future? Or are you wondering what I should have said before she walked out the door?
So, the present moment is that she's having a hard time, and You're having a hard time, and you're going to just try to stay in that place without trying to go backwards or forwards, but really stay in that present moment, because that's the only place we can operate from and come from a place of staying centered and being able to be useful in the moment.
So we do
Brenda: spend so much time either rewinding or fast forwarding, and we really can't be useful there. That those, those places are not places where we can make an impact, where right in the moment we can make an [00:38:00] impact. And sometimes that impact is just us being centered and calm
Ann: because Right. I mean, I would, every time the phone would ring in the middle of the night, I was assuming the worst.
And sometimes The worst happened. Sometimes there was an accident. Sometimes something happened, but not every time. So for me to be anxious every time the phone rang wasn't helping. So it's about dealing with the situation when it happens, not before it happens. Right.
Brenda: You're not the film producer. Like you don't have to be thinking three scenes ahead.
You just need
Ann: to think about the scene you're in. And so many times also I would be worried to death. And then all of a sudden she'd drive home and I'd. then I'd relax. And I'd think, why did I spend all that time worrying? She was fine. So we do, we kind of make ourselves suffer when we don't stay in the present.
It is
Brenda: not helpful. It is not helpful. I, I just want to go back. So Demeter and Persephone, is that how you say it? [00:39:00] Persephone. Persephone. Persephone. I don't know my Greek very well. So. Oh, that's okay.
Ann: I mean, a lot of people say Demeter. Demeter. I mean it's, but I'm using Demeter and Persephone.
Brenda: Persephone.
Okay. So Persephone is the daughter. Demeter is the mother. And it sounds like there's a lot of wisdom that you gained from these women and their story, even though it is not a current day, you know, Netflix kind of thing. Did it help that it wasn't in the present day? Was there something about it? I
Ann: think it did.
I think it did because here is this. Well, like I said before, here was this ancient helicopter mom, basically, who was overprotective and, you know, wanted, didn't want her daughter to date anybody. You know, wanted to make sure she was surrounded by other people all the time. Um, and, I think what [00:40:00] was, what was great about that was that I realized the universal truth of motherhood.
I realized that this is not something we're just struggling with in the 21st century. This is something that every people have been struggling with for All years and centuries, and there's something very basic about that emotion of that maternal connection between a mother and a child. Not only was I not alone, I mean, I could have read another book and thought, oh, somebody else had a similar problem, but There's a whole history of mothers who have gone through this too.
This is not, um, anything I should be ashamed about or embarrassed about, or we all go through this. We're all struggling with how to let go, how to, how to raise a child, how to, how to guide a young adult, this transition that we go through, and there's not a lot of guidance. Right. So, um, I think it was really [00:41:00] helpful for me to see this mother and this daughter's journey.
And see the parallels in my life.
Brenda: Absolutely. I, um, I cannot wait to read it. I think we may need to make it a book club book in our community because it sounds like I would love
Ann: that. It sounds like I would love that. Yeah,
Brenda: we, what we do is we have our community, all of our members read a book and then we have the author come and speak, um, to help us.
Kind of understand it or to ask questions. So it sounds like this would be a very perfect one. The thing I find interesting, and when you're talking about, you know, other mothers have gone through this, this is not just a thing that we're going through today is we can often get, we can feel shame. Um, and embarrassment for what we're, what our kids are going through and, you know, Oh, my child is going through addiction.
And then we can also get shamed for, well, you're a helicopter mom and you're this and you know, you shouldn't be so torn apart or you're not torn apart enough. Like there's, yeah, it's, it's coming [00:42:00] at us from every angle. So I have found, and I, this is why I really love just. Um, touching on mindfulness so much that I think that is a place where we can just calm ourselves and find our center and kind of, you know, put a buffer around ourselves from all the messages that we're getting, that the world is telling us that we're too much of this or we're too much of that, or we're too little of this or too little of
Ann: that.
It's a lot. It's just, it's just too much. It's We judge each other, we judge other mothers, we shame people who are having problems, we, and I think it all comes from fear. It's basically fear based, and if we realize that, then maybe if we can let go of the fear and bring in more compassion and recognize, that's why I talk about how we're all in the spectrum of addiction.
It's not an us or them. thing. We're all, everybody is attached to [00:43:00] wanting certain outcomes. And so if we realize that there's not this separation, then maybe we can smile at the mother in pickup line whose kid is having a problem or offer a seat or, you know, invite their child to your birthday party, even if your kid isn't close to them.
Or, you know, there's just little ways that we can be kind to each other and to not be afraid. Well, if
Brenda: there, this is a beautiful place to wrap up, I would love to know, um, sitting in the seat that you sit in with the wisdom that you do hold. If a parent's listening right now and they're in it, and we know what that feels like, what,
Ann: what thoughts would you have for them?
First of all. You're okay. This is normal, what you're experiencing. And it's important to take responsibility for your emotions without shame or blame, [00:44:00] without trying to be perfect, but try to stay in the present as much as possible and not get caught up in worrying about what you did wrong or worrying about what might happen in the future.
I think that that will take a lot of pressure off. Um, at least it did for me. Thank
Brenda: you. That's beautiful. Can't wait to get the book. It is out in October, 2023, right?
Ann: Yeah, it's coming out October 3rd. Um, you can preorder it now if you want to go on my website. Um, so that's possible, but you can wait, um, it'll be out on Amazon, uh, after October 3rd.
Brenda: Okay. And we will put a link in the show notes. So if you go to brendazain. com forward slash podcast, you can find the episode and. In the show notes, we'll link out to where you can get the book and we just may see you in HopeStream community as our guest speaker in the future. That would be lovely. [00:45:00] And thank you so much for, for this conversation.
I think people are going to find it incredibly insightful and helpful and can't wait to read the book.
Ann: Well, thank you so much for having me. It's really been an honor.
Brenda: Okay. My friend, that is it for today. Remember, you can find all the guest information and resources we talked about in the show notes, and those are at brendazane.
com forward slash podcast. We also have some playlists there that we created for you, like the top 10 episodes, coaching episodes, recovery stories, all the good stuff. And if you haven't already, you may want to download a free ebook I wrote called hindsight. Three things I wish I knew when my son was misusing drugs, it'll give you some insight as to why your child might be doing what they are.
And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through the rough times. You can download that free from BrendaZane. com forward slash [00:46:00] hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. Stay strong and be very, very good to yourself. And I will meet you right back here. Next week?