letting go of expectations and dealing with grief when your child is misusing drugs or alcohol, with Cathy Cioth
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
Guest: Cathy Cioth, Director, The Stream Community
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About this episode:
As parents, we do a disservice to our kids when we intentionally or subconsciously layer expectations on them around who they should be, how they should be, what they should accomplish, and what we think they should want. We might project onto them things we experienced in our own family growing up, and Cathy and I dig into why it's sometimes easier to focus on our kids than on ourselves.
Episode resources:
Episode 130: Nine things we never talk about when our kids misuse drugs or alcohol
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Hey, Brenda - back for another episode. I don't know why it's so hard to schedule these, cuz we talk all the time, but I think we just, we just have to be more intentional about cuz I think, gosh, if we could just record all of these phone calls that we have all the time.
[00:01:39] Cathy: I, I've thought about that actually.
[00:01:41] Brenda: I know we need like a little button next to our, our phone calls. But anyway, I, I do hear that people really love getting the perspective from, from the two of us and you know, we're not obviously unique in this experience, but I think the great thing is we're both okay talking about it and we're both okay talking about some of the crunchier stuff.
So, that's what it we thought we would do today. As a little bit of a follow on to the, I should look up the episode number, the episode on the things that we never talk about. I think it was nine things, which I'm sure there's more.
[00:02:17] Cathy: a lot more
[00:02:19] Brenda: there's so much more. But the, the one that we wanted to talk about today, This idea of the outcomes and the expectations that we have of our kids and the grief that goes along with that when we realize, oh, things are not going according to plan.
And I know you struggled with that, I struggled with that. So I think it's just a good, a good opportunity to talk about that a little bit more. Cuz we touched on it in that episode, but we didn't really go too.
[00:02:53] Cathy: Yeah, I think it's a really great topic and I think it's one that, I think many people think ends when maybe when your kid gets into treatment. and, that might not be the end of it for some people. Right. And so I, I love that we're talking about these expectations because I know for my family it was kinda like, oh, okay, great.
They're in treatment, they're getting better. Okay? Right back on the track of the expectations that were all made from day one of them being alive. And so I love that we're talking about.
[00:03:25] Brenda: Yeah, and it's, it's so deep. We, we should probably get a therapist on to talk about this too with us. From the standpoint of why we have those expectations, but I think to start out, because this is what happened to me and I'd be curious to hear about your experience, but at first when we realized that.
My son was, we, we kind of call it off the rails, right? , which encompasses a lot of things. So off the rails can be anything from other, just skipping school to maybe you got the call about some shoplifting all the way through to very serious use and, and all of the things that come along with that. But just to give it a term off the rails seems to kind of capture everything. and then, So you have all of that stress and strain, you have all of that confusion. And so I think for a while, for me, I was so distracted by all of the crisis and the chaos, and it was just so much. And then there came a time, you know, there was periods where he was in treatment or there were periods where things seemed a little bit more stable, but I was still feeling so depressed and so sad, and I didn't know what it was.
And then my therapist started talking about this concept of the grief and grieving these expectations that we had and what we think our family's gonna look like. And I was like, oh, you're right. But I couldn't name it. I don't know. Did you know right away, like why you were feeling like this?
[00:05:01] Cathy: No, I didn't know. And I had, I had those same feelings too. Just this, it was this. I love that you said distraught. It was, it was definitely feeling off. I didn't know what it was. and I don't, I, I actually don't recall where I first heard the word grief about it, but it literally was that light going off in my head that thinking, this is exactly what this feels. This grief. but I wasn't exactly sure why I was grieving because even in the, you know, even when things seemed more stable and, and definitely were more stable, there was this grief, that I felt. And so, it was kind of a hard to understand it. it was hard to accept it. but yeah, I, I, I do remember the same.
[00:05:44] Brenda: Yeah. Cause it was almost nice to have somebody point it out to me to say. Hey, you know, you, and I think we all do this to different degrees. Maybe some parents are way better at it, at just sort of letting their kids be and who they are. but I know for me, our family was very, education is a big.
important part of that and going to college and getting a job, you know, that pays well and does all these things and I, and I unknowingly was really reinforcing those expectations on my kids. I don't think I ever said like, you are going to college. You know, but like we were just talking earlier, you start saving from the time they come out of your womb.
[00:06:30] Brenda: The minute they pop out, you got like, you're putting money into the whatever. I don't even know. 5 29. I don't even know anymore cuz it's
[00:06:37] Cathy: That's the name of it. Yeah.
[00:06:39] Brenda: even a part of my consciousness. But
[00:06:41] Cathy: exactly.
[00:06:42] Brenda: yeah, so, so I think even subconsciously, our kids are getting that message of, well of course you're going to college, or of course you're gonna get married, or of course you're gonna get married to somebody of the opposite sex.
Right? Like there's just these things that. Unknowingly reinforce through conversations through our lifestyle or whatever that we don't know is putting a ton of pressure on them. But we have this vision in our mind of, walking them down the aisle or, being the grandparent or standing at the graduation ceremony.
Then when, when you realize, woo, the track my kid is on, doesn't include those scenarios. Right. The, the, I like what you said about earlier about a detour, like, okay, we're on a little detour here, but detours, the great thing about detours is they, they usually end up back in the same place to get you to where you were going.
And I think the unique thing about this detour is that is not always the. This detour has a different destination often
[00:07:51] Cathy: Yeah. Yeah. and really it could be an amazing destination, as great as the original destination. It depends on where you, where you're going. you know, and I'm wondering, Brenda, if this happened in your family. so I, we were those parents that said, you are going to college. I mean, that was just, Sometimes I cringe when I think about that, but you know, it's just the way we were, we were raised too, and I didn't, we didn't know any better at the time.
So giving myself some grace for not knowing back then. but I will say that I'm wondering if your kids, your, your son had this experience that, our son definitely did, was. Well, you've been telling me to go to college now. I'm having a hard time letting it go. And so
[00:08:39] Brenda: Oh.
[00:08:40] Cathy: had a very difficult time, during our whole journey to wellness that, you know, here he was doing really well and stable and in school.
And we started saying, look, college. On the path for everybody. We want this to be your choice. We learned so much about you choosing your destination and everything else, and we were starting to get comfortable definitely with the idea of they don't need to go to college and all of that. Even though it was still, still inside, it's still kind of, you know, it feels uncomfortable, right?
but I know that our son had a really difficult. You know, because , and again, I think it's because the way we raised him that, you know, he was thinking, well, in order for me to be successful, I've gotta go to college and, and I've gotta do X, Y, Z. And that, that doesn't necessarily mean that that's the way it was.
[00:09:35] Cathy: So I, I'm wondering if, you know your son or anyone out there has kids that are like that, even though we may learn and, and are their kids still experiencing.
[00:09:47] Brenda: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think that that does happen. I think there's a desire for our kids that they have to please us, right? And so if, if we all of a sudden start saying something different and saying, well actually, you know, because I got to that point with high school. I was like, dude, I don't even care anymore.
Just stay alive. Right? Just be healthy. Like I don't even care if you go to high school right now because I knew that that high school, there's so many different ways to accomplish high school. Right? That I just, at one point I was. I don't care, you know, cuz he was in the truancy system. which if you haven't experienced that, that is an experience.
I should do a whole episode on the truancy system. I really
[00:10:40] Cathy: that we didn't have to experience that because I, I know that's a, that's a totally different ballgame.
[00:10:46] Brenda: it is, it is.
[00:10:47] Cathy: I think it's great that you got to the point where you were like, just, whatever, just stay alive. That's, that's the most important thing,
[00:10:54] Brenda: Yeah. But, but as I was doing that, Kind of back to what you were saying about, but them ha them feeling this pressure and I don't know. I don't know that we ever had that necessarily, but luckily we did get to a point where, you know, we said, okay, do you know, do this how you wanna do it? And then eventually my son came to the realization on his own that he really did wanna go to college and he really did want to get that degree.
You know, even looking at doing a PhD, so like he's gone the complete, you know, opposite direction of where I thought that it was gonna go. And like you said, I think the destination can be even better because then the original that you anticipated,
[00:11:41] Cathy: Yeah,
[00:11:42] Brenda: a lot of times when our kids go through this experience, they find so much meaning.
They would not have found, just like you and I, right? We have found meaning through this experience that we would've, I would still be flipping around the world doing advertising campaigns and shooting commercials and thinking that that was really important and it is so not important. So I think the same is true for our kids that yes, it is so incredibly painful when you're in, when your feet are in the fire.
and you have to have that knowledge that things can look so incredibly different, you know, down the road. And you can find meaning in that. And that they can find meaning in that. And even, you know, what I don't wanna do is say, oh, you're gonna go through a really hard time and then everything is gonna get better.
You know, I don't wanna say that because,
[00:12:37] Cathy: Right.
[00:12:38] Brenda: That isn't always the case. And in the Stream community, we have members who have lost their kids and so they are also on the journey of finding ways to put that to use and think about how different life looks for them, right? That they envisioned the walking down the aisle and the grandkids and the family vacations and all of the things.
That we, I don't know, delude ourselves with that are gonna happen. And those things are definitely not gonna happen if your child's not alive. So
[00:13:14] Cathy: their grief. is completely, it's, it's different, right? It's, it's, I don't wanna say it's long term or short term because some people, you know, it can be long term, even if their children are still here and maybe they're in active use and they just have never gotten help.
But, it's a different kind of a grief and it's, it's sad,
but they are, they're actively using it. It's, it's just amazing to see. Warrior moms, you know, I, I love that. We, they are, they're, they're angel moms, warrior moms, and they're just, you know, fighting and, and they're using their grief in that.
[00:13:54] Brenda: Right. Yeah. So there's kind of different, strains of grief, I guess, that, you know, for, for those of us who haven't lost our kids, life just looks different, in a different way. and I kind of wonder where, where these expectations come from. And this is where we probably need a therapist, but we've, you and I have, I don't know, probably spent a significant amount of money on therapy.
So I feel like I can, I can share a little bit of what I have learned,
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I can share a little bit of what I have learned,
which is, it's a lot easier to. look externally and put these expectations on our lives based on other people, because then it's, it's not about me having to do my work. It's like, well, if this is happening and that is happening and my kids are doing this, then I have done a good job and I can check that box and I can feel great, and life doesn't work that.
[00:16:06] Brenda: So we have to, we have to be able to say, okay, well that didn't happen and that didn't happen and this kid's doing this and this kid's doing that, and I'm still okay. They are not my report card. Right? They are not my, marker of success
[00:16:26] Cathy: I love.
[00:16:27] Brenda: so hard.
[00:16:29] Cathy: It is so hard, but I love that you say they are not my report card. You know, and once you get to that point, oh my gosh, you can just relish in all their success, and, and really enjoy it and, and know that it's not about you, and it's about them becoming these beautiful human beings. However, they're going to get there. And recognizing that, you know, just like the struggles we've gone through, my personal struggles have made me who I am today. And, my kids' struggles have made them who they are today, and I love seeing who they are today. but it took a while to get there. . It took grief, it took struggle and challenging.
And, and, and I don't wanna even say, normally we like to say we kept our expectations at our ankles. here I think it's just, you know, gosh, if we could talk to new parents, right?
[00:17:30] Brenda: Oh,
[00:17:30] Cathy: Don't keep your expectations at your ankles, just. Temper those expectations. You know, keep them for yourself in terms of what do you expect to get out of motherhood, not what your children are gonna give to you.
You know, what are they going to become? and, and just celebrate those, those moments for them. And instead of making it be about you and how you did
[00:17:55] Brenda: Yes. And fatherhood. And fatherhood.
[00:17:57] Cathy: fatherhood.
[00:17:58] Brenda: Yeah. I was thinking about, you know, we had a call this weekend where our members really shared a lot. We were talking about holidays and all of the complexities that come with holidays and family when your family doesn't look like what you think it was gonna look like.
And I do remember, I don't know what happened, but something through all of this really made. Okay. And proud of my kids, no matter what they look like, what they're going through, what they are wearing, what they're not wearing, what they're, you know, like I used to be so concerned with all of that. What is he gonna wear when he shows up for Mother's Day brunch?
Or, you know, what if he starts talking about this thing? And because my kids have some very different views on things than. and I would get, my stomach would just be in knots. Right. And, and I, and I wish I could say I knew what changed and I think it's probably just time and wear and tear.
[00:19:07] Cathy: Yeah,
[00:19:08] Brenda: Right. That builds up to where I'm now like, because I can fully appreciate and love them for who they are. All their quirks, all of my quirks, like, they probably are like, oh geez, what is my mom gonna say?
Right. . Like, it's, it's not just a one
[00:19:26] Cathy: can guarantee you they've said that.
[00:19:28] Brenda: Yes. So it's nice to get to that point. and I think actually it's not true that, I don't know when that changed. I do know when that the, the, the switch fully flipped for. Was when I, you know, went through the experience of my son overdosing and, you know, dying, coming back to life, going through, having to rebuild, not just his, you know, a new life in recovery, but learning how to walk, learning how to talk, having to look at a clock and not even knowing what a clock was, let alone how to tell time, like.
What do I do with the toothbrush? All of those things, all of a sudden, everything else doesn't matter. So it's, it's kind of beautiful in that way that you can get to the point where you can just love them for where they are.
[00:20:23] Cathy: Yeah.
[00:20:24] Brenda: And even if that's still using, even if they're still using that, you can still say, you know what?
That is one part of your life. It is not who you. It's something that's going on. And yes, it may be acute and it may be causing all kinds of problems, but there's still all of those other amazing things that you know about your kid in there. And we always only focus on the little, the one bad thing.
[00:20:52] Cathy: We do. And and I love that you said that because I remember when there was active addiction for us and there'd be those times where I'd get a little note or something from my kids and. I thought they're still there. They're still there. I'll get a, a text message, you know, I love you, mom. Or, you know, even if, even if I initiate it, I'm thinking about you today.
because I think it's so important as we, you know, have talked about before, it's so important to have connection, with our kids. even, even in active addiction, even in, you know, it's, it's not. The tough love and pushing away and hopefully they'll crave our attention and come to us. Instead, it isolates them.
[00:21:39] Cathy: Right? So, I love that, there'd be these little parts of them that would come through, and I remember so well when my daughter brought home flowers for me and I thought, oh, I love that. And that was her. She's always been super, Sensitive and thinking about and generous and thinking about people's needs and, you know, what would make them feel good. We, we occasionally would buy flowers for each other and still, still do.
We like to do that, although she lives farther away, so it's harder. But, and I love that. And, you know, that's her unique part, right? Even though there was this other part that we didn't like that was going on,
[00:22:15] Brenda: Right.
[00:22:16] Cathy: and so, Anyway, I love celebrating who they are, knowing that, that they are in there even in the worst of conditions.
Your kiddos there. And and I know it's hard and it's so difficult sometimes to look past all that stuff that's going on. yes,
it really is tough and, and just, but if you can, You know, sometimes it might not even be for you watch how they are with their friends sometimes they're doing these really sweet and sensitive things for their friends
[00:22:52] Brenda: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Cathy: and that's, that's the kid that is loyal is loving.
And it might not be to you. and, and that's the hard thing too. That is definitely difficult and that is definitely something to grieve over. but, but it is, you know, sometimes they just feel safer with their friends and so they're gonna do really sweet and loving things for them. And it might not, might even be something that you don't think is so sweet loving, but they are being kind.
And so, to recognize that kindness it's special.
[00:23:23] Brenda: Yeah. Well, and I think that helps cuz I wanted to touch a little bit on what do we do, right? Like what do we do? With this knowledge that things aren't gonna be like they were. How do we start to accept this? Or how do we start to find any kind of positivity in this? And I think what you just said is the key, which is look for those positive things in your child even even when they're doing crazy things and they're wrecking cars and they're punching holes in the wall and.
Running away from treatment programs, like these are the real, these are the things that are happening and there's also things that we can look at. I re, I remember one. Particular day, when things were not good with my son and I came downstairs in the morning. He had been on his iPad. You know, the school gave him iPads so you couldn't even take away technology because the stupid iPad is where he had to do his homework, so couldn't take away the iPad.
So I had gone to bed the night before and he was on the couch with the iPad and. You know, you just get to the point where I was just like, whatever, I don't even care. At least he's home. At least he's in the house, which was a win for me, and he seemed to be sober. So I was like, okay, that's kind of a double win.
Right? So there's two positive things that you could look at. Might not be on every parent's positive checklist, but for us that was, those were two positives. Then I woke up in the morning, I came downstairs like six o'clock in the morning. He was still on the couch, the iPad was kind, he was asleep and he was kind of laying with the iPad on his chest and you know, I kind of shook him a little bit and said, Hey, are you, are you going to school today?
Which I kind of felt silly asking cuz school wasn't even a thing anymore. But, you know, I figured, let's,
[00:25:14] Cathy: Yeah,
[00:25:15] Brenda: let's see. And he kind of like woke up and I, and he was just really. and I, I said, what's going on? And, and he said, oh, I was, I was, he said, I just fell asleep. I just, I just fell asleep at like five 30 and I said, what were you doing all night?
And he just handed me the iPad and, and Facebook was open and he had been on, I, on Facebook chat with his girlfriend, kind of ex-girlfriend since 11 o'clock. The night before she had, she was threatening to commit.
[00:25:50] Cathy: Oh,
[00:25:51] Brenda: and he had been on Facebook Messenger with her for the last six hours. Also, he had reached out to her mom on Facebook chat trying to get her attention.
And when I read through this chat, it was almost like he was a therapist. It was bizarre. I'm, I was like, buddy, I don't even know where did you get these skills? You know, he was really counseling her and she was being really mean and nasty. I'm gonna make sure that you're the one that finds me. and she was saying, now that you know I'm gonna do this, you're gonna be found guilty for murder.
[00:26:28] Brenda: When they find like all of that craziness, and these are the things that our kids are dealing with and we often don't know it because it's on a device that we don't see. But he happened to want me to see this, but I was so proud of him for how he had handled this, the six hours he had been doing this with
[00:26:49] Cathy: Right,
[00:26:50] Brenda: really trying to talk her down, really trying to connect with.
Trying to connect with her about spirituality and this was the kid who I thought was long gone. Long like so yes, we are grieving some of those things, but I think sometimes the things that we're grieving are so. You know, material and so inconsequential. They're the things that we visually want to see, that they're things that we want to post on Instagram or on Facebook, or, I remember for so many years I was so frustrated because I love to do Christmas cards with pictures of the whole family, and I couldn't get a picture of.
So I then I was like, well, do I send the card out without a picture of him? Then that's kind of awkward. one year, I'm kind of embarrassed to admit this, I used a picture from the year before because it was the
[00:27:48] Cathy: I don't blame.
[00:27:49] Brenda: and so it's like, really? Are those the things that we need to spend time grieving?
Those things are gonna come and go, right? It's like those things are not. What's important and I think that the contrast of, seeing him in such bad shape from a, lifestyle standpoint and using, and then to see this interaction that he had had was just like, that's what I can celebrate. I don't need to grieve this.
Yeah, life kind of sucks. There's some really bad stuff going on
and I have an amazing kid and.
[00:28:29] Cathy: Yeah.
[00:28:29] Brenda: Capable of so much. So I don't know
if
[00:28:34] Cathy: Those, those little wins.
[00:28:36] Brenda: Yeah. It's just, I think
[00:28:38] Cathy: Oh, I know.
[00:28:39] Brenda: We get on tangents sometimes, but tangent, but No, but that's important. And I think you shared, you know, this beautiful part of him, right? the drugs hadn't taken,
no.
[00:28:49] Cathy: you know, the drugs take a lot, but you know, deep down one thing that I have seen over so many years of watching this and working, with parents, Listening to hundreds of podcasts and stories of recovery is that people at their core, at their essence, are who they are.
They're loving. if they're a loving person, they, they are. The drugs take a lot. But I've noticed that it seems that. People that suffer from this substance use issues deep down there's still this beautiful core of a person and these things come out with their friends. That's why I brought up their friends and, and what they will do.
And and I know also one of the characteristics sometimes as someone who's using is just this extreme sensitivity and it's just so beautiful. They care so much.
for our world and for the, for other humans, and they feel things on such a deeper. And so I love that you shared that story about him because that's so beautiful and that is definitely a win, right?
and, and that's a positive thing. And I think it reminded me of a time when I know my daughter stayed up, counseling a friend who was going through a really tough time too, in the wee hours of the morning, and I got angry at her. You need your rest. You need to go to school. What are you doing? And instead, it could have been a much better conversation to say, that's so nice that you did that for her.
[00:30:26] Cathy: You know? And, do you feel she's in a better place now? And is it time for you to, you know, try to get some rest? And, you know, I'm worried about you too. but I love that she did that. Right? That's just such a neat thing.
[00:30:39] Brenda: Well, and I think, we'll wrap it up, but the thing that I do wanna say about all of this is I know it's easy. To look at what your kids are doing and think that they have lost their moral compass, right? Because they're stealing, they're calling you as a parent names and telling you terrible things and you know, you just look at them and you're like, that is not their character.
And I think, so it could be confusing. Cause I think what we're saying is their character is still there, they still are who they are. Some of their actions. Are going to point you to think something differently because if they're so deep in a lifestyle or the chemical hooks have gotten into their body, they don't have a choice.
So yes, they're gonna steal to get whatever they need, or they're going to do whatever by whatever means, because if they don't, their body is going to go into a really bad place. That doesn't mean that their character has changed or that they don't have that same moral compass, because I could guarantee you, I guess I shouldn't say that, , that's probably some, there's probably some legal reason why I shouldn't say that on a podcast.
I'm going to strongly suggest that they are not happy with themselves about what they are doing, and they themselves would say, no, this is not who I am. , but I have to do this because I can't, I don't know any other way. I don't know how to get out of this. I don't know any other way to not get violently sick right now.
I don't know any other way to not have, you know, something happen to me from one of these drug dealers or whatever it is,
[00:32:29] Cathy: right?
[00:32:29] Brenda: but they are not thinking, yes, this is exactly who I wanna. This is who my parents raised me to be. This is the kind of person I'm proud to be. They are not thinking that, so I just wanted to highlight that because I think it, it could be confusing if we're saying, oh, you know, they're still there and somebody's thinking, well, wait a minute.
Why am I
[00:32:49] Cathy: Yeah. My kid's not.
[00:32:51] Brenda: Yeah. They, they are. It's just there are, they're doing what they have to, to survive. and that might look like their character has changed or their moral compass has changed. I'm just saying. I think it probably hasn't, but it might appear that way. So anyway. All right.
[00:33:07] Cathy: Good clarification.
[00:33:09] Brenda: there's a little asterisks there that I wanted to highlight. Well, thank you for this conversation.
[00:33:16] Cathy: I'm glad we got to have this conversation. It was great.
[00:33:18] Brenda: I am too.
Okay, that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to brenda zane.com/podcast. All of the episodes are listed there, and you can also find curated playlists there, so that's very helpful. You might also wanna download a free ebook I wrote. It's called H. Three things I wish I knew when my son was misusing drugs.
It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from brenda za.com/h. Okay. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it and I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself, and I will meet you right back here next week.