coaching episode: responding to disrespect, holding boundaries, and reducing the overwhelm of big next steps
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
Guest: Jamie, The Stream Community Member
The Stream Community: The Stream is the online space that gives moms connection, hope and healing when their child is struggling with substance misuse, addiction and mental health challenges.
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episode resources
Outward Bound Intercept (website)
Have You Filled a Bucket Today? (book)
episode transcript
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Brenda: Hi, and welcome. You are listening to hope stream the podcast for parents who have kids struggling with substance use and mental health issues. And that might mean they're currently experimenting with drugs and alcohol or your child might be in active addiction in a treatment program or making the transition whose treatment into a new life of recovery or somewhere in between.
All of that. If that sounds like the place you're in, you have landed in the right spot. I'm your host, Brenda Zane, I experienced all of those things a couple of times and all the work I do serves parents. Like you, you can learn more about the way I do that at my website, Brenda, zane.com. It's a coaching episode week.
I know these are really helpful for you because you get to temporarily drop into someone. Else's challenges, successes, you get to hear their questions and you can listen to the strategies and tactics that they've used in their family. And I just think it's really unique. There's nothing quite like that.
It's a really interesting viewpoint that you get to take. And I'm so grateful for our brave members in the stream community who agreed to let you Eve drop on their coaching sessions. Before we jump into it, I wanna just let you know about two quick things. We have a great new offering in the stream community.
It's a weekly craft class where members don't learn crafts. We, we don't do that, but we do learn the various information, communication tools and actions that help move a person towards better choices and often to getting help for their substance use. The classes are led by certified craft coaches through the partnership to an addiction.
And they have all lived through the experience. So you get to learn the concepts and skills from somebody who has actually used them in their home, in their living room with a child who is struggling with substance use and they get the crazy cuz if you haven't lived it, you really don't get it. So that's number one.
Very exciting. And then I also wanna mention again, that we are working on launching a community similar to this stream for those who identify as dads of kids, misusing substances and struggling with mental health issues that come right along with. This is where guys will have a private digital island, all of their own outside of all social media, no Facebook, no Instagram, no Twitter.
And this is where they will be able to learn craft. They'll get coaching connect with other guys who get it, just like the moms in the stream love, and they can also find ways to just stay healthier through the roller coaster ride. So if that sounds interesting to you or a co-parent of yours, you can go to Brenda zane.com/dad, D a D, and get more information and hop on the wait list for that.
Okay. Our mom today is a dynamo who has such great perspective after her son has been to an outward bound program, as well as wilderness therapy and residential treatment. He is turning 18 in two days, but he has one more year of high school to go. So that's complex. She also has an expo who struggled with addiction, which her son experienced during his younger years.
And although her ex is now in recovery, his own experiences are still coming into the picture. So this mom has been through it. She is still in it dealing with ongoing marijuana, use ADHD and her biggest frustration right now, which is her son's tendency to be disrespectful. I'm sure you might be able to relate.
She has a pretty full tool belt when it comes to her parenting approach, her own, self-regulation dealing with her ex and being mindful of her other two. Kids's got so much going on. So I know you will get a ton out of this very real conversation with Jamie. Jamie, thanks for joining me today and for being willing to, um, share a coaching session with, with people they're so popular.
And, um, I really enjoy just doing these because I get to know you a little bit better, even though I've, um, had the good fortune of meeting you in person. And also you've been a member for a long time. I feel like you are you're OG . We have like OG members and we have newer members, but you are definitely OG member, so that's super fun.
But, um, look forward to talking today. How are you feeling?
Jamie: I am in a good place right now as, as you know, when you're in it. Yeah, it just depends on day by day, minute by minute.
Brenda: Exactly. Like in this moment. I'm good. yes. In
Jamie: this moment. I'm good. I, my son was asked to help with the elementary school basketball camp.
And he's there doing that. So I feel good right now. Awesome.
Brenda: See, it's the little things, right? Like all those little things. And I know we've talked about this before that the little things become the big things because in a different scenario, you probably, that probably wouldn't really seem like that big of a deal.
Like, oh yeah, he's off doing this thing, whatever. And now it's like, wow, he's doing it. Yes,
Jamie: absolutely. Just, uh, the lower, the lows, as we've talked about before the higher, the highs and equally. The highs are the average days for someone else. Yes. Like
Brenda: we're going to the dentist today. like, that's a
Jamie: big thing you made it to, to the camp on time today, riding the e-bike.
You made it there. Perfect. I love
Brenda: it. I love it. Well, cool. Um, why don't you just give us a little as much background as you want of your family's situation, just so that, um, the people who are listening can get that context. And then we'll talk a little bit about what you wanna work toward or some things that are just on your mind that you could use some help with.
Does that work sounds good.
Jamie: All right. Well, I'll start way back in the beginning, cuz I think it, I think it is a piece of where we are. Um, my son was born at 32. Two months early spent six weeks in the NICU was a big, big, uh, premi at five pounds, five ounces, and was healthy aside from the fact that he is had the wimpy white male syndrome is what they call it.
So white males, uh, have a harder time multitasking, which some of them never outgrow, but the sucking breathing swallowing, you know, survival, uh, he struggled with, um, and then had sleep apnea, uh, where he would forget to breathe. So they put him on caffeine as a little tiny at preemie. So he came home on caffeine.
So we would have, as caffeine levels measured every couple days. And then as he grew, they would increase his caffeine levels. And there was one day that we gave him that too high of a dose. And that was, that was really hard because he was UN. Consolable like he was, yeah. I couldn't do anything to help him.
And you, it felt so bad cuz we know we did that. We gave him that caffeine. Yeah. At that point you're gonna do whatever the doctors are telling you to get your baby of course, reading on their own and safe and all that. So he was eight weeks early, came home, um, after six weeks. So he spent a significant time there with the, you know, the beeping and the bells and whistles and great care from the nurses.
And again, you do what the doctors tell you to looking back. It's that connection that you read about mm-hmm um, uh, G GBO what's his, what's his name? Go Monte GVO. And talking about that connection does not help for me to look back and do that, but that is something I've thought about. So that connection early on.
Yeah. Um, then, you know, fast feed develops on time. I steadily, um, Preschool. He was sensitive to tags and when wear jeans and just overly, physically sensitive to stuff. Um, again, uh, developing typically then in elementary school, I started seeing some, a D D type, you know, not a, not a big deal. The teachers didn't really even pick up on it, except for like, yeah, I can't have him sit here because he ends up like just shaking the, the, the chair here.
So I just move him somewhere else. Then I started seeing like low blood sugar in the morning. He would just, he would be awful right when he woke up. So ID put or apple juice next to his bed. So he could have that little boost in the morning. So these were just what I thought. Typical little developmental things.
Now I can see those were signs.
Brenda: Yeah. And where is just for context? Where is he in the age of your children?
Jamie: He's my oldest. Your oldest. Okay. Birth. Okay. First of three, a yes. A brother who's three years younger and his sister who's six years younger than him. Okay. So it's all three years apart and yes, never being a mom before and again, not wearing jeans.
So he'd like to go to, uh, preschool on his pajamas and being your first child. He like, you don't wear jams to school and right. He fought me on that. And finally, I saw a little boy walking into preschool with a Tutu on I'm like, God, your GM's are fine. . And ironically, that was the last time he wore his GS at school.
Just, I didn't even say anything. It just happened that way. But anyway, that just that sensitivity and I had, um, actually made an appointment to get us into a physical therapy or the, um, first sensitivity, whatever. And then it kind of seemed to outgrow. and then it just, little things started to manifest differently.
Like I said that in the morning when he was just a Tyran, making sure he had that blood sugar boost and then like second grade, well in middle school, then his dad. Um, so he was, he was born nine months after his dad and I got married, not a honeymoon baby, cuz he was born two months early. Anyway, we hadn't been married a long time before we were a family of three.
Um, and his dad was, he would, I never knew if he was gonna come home happy dad or sad dad. So I kind of just went flat. Um, then fast forward quite a few years, I guess six, seven years later, no, eight years later, eight or nine years later. Uh, it turns out my husband. Successful attorney was addicted to, um, marijuana, opiates, Adderall, lot of caffeine, lot, lot of nicotine.
And again, highs and lows there. And I just kept flat, shoved all motions down because I had three kids that I had to, to manage. Yeah. So he actually went to treatment. God bless him. And so that was hard for my oldest, my son, he didn't quite understand, you know, we tried to put it in terms of you. Well, dad has a place to go.
That's gonna help him with his happiness. I didn't have a counselor like you do right now. Yeah. Um, but for a, I think he was fourth grade or something, and that was a hard concept. Right. So this sensitive kid, then this blow, like dad's all of a sudden just left for five weeks. Yeah. That was hard. then he came back and dad, God bless him is still sober.
Nine plus years. Wow. Then grandpa passed away. Oh, I then mom and dad got divorced. Grandpa passed away. Now I'm middle school. Um, now diagnosed with D D anxiety, depression, ADHD. Um, that kid can't find his place in school and friendships and does things to try and make people laugh and then pushes the envelope too far and then pushes people away.
And then just struggling with that. And then also seeing that he's got this huge empathetic heart. And that's the one thing I ask parents who have kids that struggle with substance use is, um, is your child a big empath? Because I feel what I've learned is that these kids that have these huge hearts, it's hard to manage your own emotions as a, you know, middle school, high school, or let alone.
Absorbing everybody else's. And even though his dad and I didn't weren't angry or anything in the house, there was still a lot of energy. Yeah. That I know for sure. He felt right, right on top of his own stuff. Yeah. So middle school was the first time that he, we caught him, um, using marijuana, not ironically, it was well played on his poor part on four 20 April 20th.
He to buy some marijuana, of course. And of course smoke it in his dad's apartment. And marijuana was one of his, his dad's vices. So it was like, that was wrong for so many reasons, like so disrespectful. Right. It seems like you wanted to get caught. Otherwise you would've done this in the bushes. And so there was a little bit of this and little bit, I mean, I could go on and on, on stories that happened, but we sent him to on a, um, with his, he was excited about it outward bound, uh, two week.
Through the Sierra mountain range, um, some big accomplishments yet. He also really struggled with trying to train for that. So it ended up being harder for him and still carried with him the similar issues he has with friendships and whatnot and pushing the envelope and which pushes people away.
Sometimes he made it through that and then we're like the next year we're like, we need something more. Cuz now he was getting in fortunately, no trouble with the law, but just stuff. And I think started vaping. I got bought a vape from a girl at school and picked it up from the girl's dad at a QFC. I mean just again, the stories I could write about.
So then I, we, we were at a point and I'd never heard a wilderness therapy and I just started a new job and met this woman and we are talking about kids and she said, yeah, my son goes to a. Small private school here and shared a little bit that he had gone to wilderness therapy because of anxiety. And I'm like so much therapy.
I've never heard of it. And the more I learned about it, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is something my kid needs because he is just struggling. So I was able to talk my ex into meeting with this, um, educational consultant, just so we have the knowledge and we have it in our back pocket. The finances were super scary about it.
So we weren't ready to pull the trigger, but we had it in our back pocket and we found through outward bound, again, outward bound intercept program, um, which is geared for, it's not a therapeutic program, but it's geared for kids that are starting to go down the wrong path. Um, and so for four weeks he lived out of a backpack through the boundary waters in Minnesota, and it was an amazing experience.
and the tools that he learned, it was amazing. And when he was done, I knew it wasn't enough. Mm. At all.
Brenda: How did you know that? Would you mind me asking how you knew that that wasn't gonna be
Jamie: enough as soon as he saw us and, and to back up, part of that is the parents do come a couple days early and do their own, um, training and learning the skills that the kids are learning out there, which was amazing.
The one, the biggest takeaway or which started my learning journey is when this happens, it makes me feel this way. I believe it's because of this. What I need from you is this . So, um, and I was thrilled to be able to be on that journey with his dad, even though we were divorced. Um, to be learning these skills together and our communication skills have grown exponentially because of the journey our son has been on.
So I think right when we got to see him, you know, it was all the hugs and kisses and the great job. And then it was like, who do I get my phone back or whatever it was that , that he wasn't having before he left. Yeah. So there was growth. And then there was also like, there needs to be more so we, he started at the public high school, played football as a freshman.
Things were going fine. As soon as football was done, he didn't have that structure every day. Things just kind of started falling apart. And he, I was now back working full time and there were days where he just wouldn't get outta bed. Um, he was now using a lot more, he was stealing a lot and we didn't learn until he left, went away how much he had been stealing.
Mm. Um, From me from his dad on the credit card, jumping the counter at the local drug store for, uh, cigarettes and vapes and all that kind of stuff again. Thank goodness. He never got caught by the police, cuz this was literally half a mile from our house. And it was just, it was, it was on a terrible path that after all the talk therapy, the acupuncture, the cranial SAC therapy, uh, area, the mirror out of medications, we tried, right.
Nothing was working and I felt like I had exhausted anything I could do on my own here. So we called back our educational consultant. Who'd been met years before and said, okay, we need to do something round too. and yeah. Um, get serious. And so that was, it was right before winter break and um, dad was finally on board actually, what it, what it was is.
My son took off one night on the skateboard and went we're in a small community, but went down to like Walgreens and I couldn't find him, but I knew he wasn't gonna go far. But finally his, I asked his dad, um, to go, just drive around, look for him. And when he found him, he looked up and he had like fallen off his skateboard.
And he looked at his dad with tears in his eyes and said, dad, I'm struggling. I need help. And at that point, dad was, um, projecting his own fear of abandonment. And all he could see was if we send him away, he's gonna think we don't love him. And he told his therapist the story. And the therapist said by doing nothing at all is more of an abandonment.
Then sending him away. Yeah. And that was it. So the next day he called, he is like, all right, let's do it.
Brenda: Hello. I want to take just a minute to let you know that if you're a mom listening and you're having a hard time right now, with the impact from your child's substance use, there is a place I created specifically for you.
It's called the stream. It's a membership based online community. It's completely private away from all social media sites where you start to take care of yourself because through all of this who is taking care of you in the community, we teach skills to help you have better conversations and relationships, and we help you get as physically, mentally, and spiritually as healthy as.
So you can be even stronger for your son or daughter. There is a two week free trial, so you can see if it's the right kind of support for you. And you can learn more about all of the member benefits at the stream, community.com. I hope to see you there. Now let's get back to this amazing conversation.
Jamie: And as anyone who's been through this knows, it just happens fast. Yeah. When you make the call, they find the bed and you go. And so we did it December 30th, 2019 3:00 AM. His dad met me over here at the house and we invited three strangers under her house. It was the two transport goons transports, and then an intern, which they didn't really tell us about, but it was fine.
Wake him up. And when he finally. He, he and I had had conversations that I'm struggling, mom. I said, I'm looking for help for you. Yeah. And so I rubbed his back and I said, um, we found, I remember I told you I was looking for help. I found somewhere and these nice people are gonna take you there. And that's when he looked up and saw that there were five people in his room, right.
And dropped a couple F bombs, get the F outta my room. And then he said, well, how, how are you gonna pay for this? these are the three questions. How are you gonna pay for this? When do I get to see you again? And there was another one. I can't remember what it was. Oh, how long I, how long am I gonna be away?
Right. And thank goodness for, I tried to not hire transport and thank goodness I did because they had all the answers I didn't have to. And I just said in Nevada, man, um, your dad and I are gonna go walk the. And the, these nice people are gonna be with you. So I hope you can sit up and give a hug. And so he did, and his dad, and I took a walk around the block and they were texting us as they were in our house, giving us a play by play.
And eventually he said, I just want a cigarette. And they said, okay, let's go outside and have a cigarette. And then they drove to the airport and said, at one point told them that this is I'm actually not that upset because I didn't have Jack shit going on at home.
Brenda: yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. And then, so 12 weeks he slept on a tarp under a tarp in the high desert of Utah.
Yeah. In January. And then after 12 weeks when he graduated there, um, he went to a therapeutic treatment center for full year. So he was gone for 15 months and. Timing couldn't have been any better, cuz it was right during the pandemic. I was gonna
Brenda: say this just crashes with COVID,
Jamie: which I cannot, I, I, I felt for all the parents that are at home with their kids yeah.
That weren't going to school that struggled. Yeah. And I couldn't have been any more grateful for the timing that he was with peers and getting support and learning tools rather than spiraling downhill. Please been at home just over a year and I I'm, we're doing better than
Brenda: yes. I was gonna say, I know, I know a little bit of the story, so I know it hasn't been a straight path by any means, but like you said earlier today is a good day and I think that's just how it goes.
I think, you know, And I don't know. I'd be curious to hear what you thought when he came home. But I do think there's a misconception that it is going to be a straight path or a fairly straight path. And I think of that street, I don't know what it is in San Francisco. There's that incredibly like windy street.
I wish I gotta look the name of that straight up because that's actually what
Jamie: is, so yeah,
Brenda: so you guys are in a really interesting position because he is now 18 on
Jamie: Sunday.
Brenda: Okay. So he is days away from being 18, which I know is a pretty significant marker for families. And for young people, besides the, you know, you said he he's off, you know, doing a job right now, what are some of the things that are going well?
Jamie: So that's a good question because it's hard when things are. So hard, it's hard to recognize and give kudos for the things that are going well. He got himself a job over a year ago. So after the school year, last year at a retirement home as a server, and he still has that job. Wow. Two to three days a week.
He works. And so I try and remind him, but there's not a lot of 17 year olds that I can say they've been in the same job for over a year. That's huge. That huge, huge on a resume. Huge. So that is going well. When I subbed at his high school where, um, one of his classes, he's a peer mentor, so he works with the, the special needs population.
And again, this is where the empathetic person comes in. Yeah. Um, that he. It's that unconditional love, I think is where it feels right for him. Um, and the teachers that I've met there that work with my son say, oh my gosh, he's my favorite. He is so funny. He's so thoughtful and polite. It's like, thank goodness I'm doing something.
Right. Right. Even though he's calling me names and just, I mean, the, the berating I get at home is it's, it's obnoxious. It's unfair. It's ridiculous. So to answer your question again, of what are things that go are going, right? Because of the tools we picked up along the way at treatment, um, wilderness, when he can come down, he has some good communication skills.
Mom, I, you do not deserve to be treated that way. I'm so sorry. And then he can actually pull back the layers. I am just struggling. I am gonna be 18 in a little bit. I don't have friends that I really wanna hang out with so he can dig deep when he is in, in a good spot. And the tools that I've learned during this is that yelling back at anybody, especially him.
Does nobody any good? Yeah. It just adds fuel to the fire. And then, you know, and it's one of the hardest things to do is just shut my mouth. And just, that was one of the PO coaching parent coaching skills I learned is just, just look at them cuz it drives them crazy. what are you doing? I'm just listening,
Brenda: right?
Yeah. Well cuz you're not adding fuel to the fire. Yeah. You're actually like sprinkling it with cool water and yeah, I know we've talked to the community about that lip Chi the lip clip that we wanna create, like, you know, the there's the chip clips you put on your potato chip bags where we need one for our lips, because it's so hard.
Jamie: It's one of the hardest things ever. I mean, the, the lies that come out, it's all your fault. Like, I don't have a car because of you, even though I crashed it. I mean, like, yes, yes. So hard. And it also, I, I'm very proud of myself at the end of these episodes where I've just been bright by rated. I. Feel good because I did what I was taught to do.
yes.
Brenda: Yes.
Jamie: Well, but it's at me not about me. That's another one I've learned. Mm it's. At me. Not about me. Yes. Sometimes I just repeat that in my head. Yes.
Brenda: So it sounds like, you know, just from my point of view, I'm thinking, wow, like there's, there's good stuff going on. He's got a job. He's actually, he was doing peer mentoring, which, you know, they don't just put anybody in those kind of roles, especially with special needs kids.
Right. So he found a way to sort of nurture his, that empathetic. Space in himself. And he does have good communication skills when he can sort of regulate himself. Um, which means he also has the ability to regulate himself. So I'm gonna add that to the list and then he's really, it sounds like he's able to not just have the communication skills to say mom, and, you know, I'm sorry.
I, I didn't, I shouldn't have treated you that way, but he can then express his actual feelings and say, I am feeling this, or I am feeling that, which is huge. I mean, I think what sometimes we forget is, uh, I think you could take another high school kid kid. Who's about to turn 18, who hasn't gone to treatment, hasn't done all this.
They wouldn't be able to necessarily do that. Right. So it's just really good to hear that he is. Tapping into some of those. And it's not to say that he hasn't also tapped into some other things that might not be so positive, but there are indicators that he's got the ability to do that. And then you are getting to a place where even though things are hairy, sometimes you're able to pull your tools out.
And I see you being that observer that we talk about a lot of, I'm just observing this mom and this son, and he's really pissed off and she's keeping in control and she's using her tools and this is at her and not about her. And I just think, wow, that takes a lot of, uh, you know, mental control to be able to do that.
And it shows how much work you've done. In, in the course of this time, because you're not, and I'm sure you do at moments, but in general it doesn't sound like you're getting sucked into the crazy and the chaos and the blame and all of that, which is really, really good. You know, that's, that's something that I think you, you should celebrate for sure.
So what's an area where when you sort of look at where things are, he's about to turn 18, I don't know what his plans are, um, you know, in, in this next phase, but, well, where, where is a place where you would like to see a shift either in what you're doing, how you're interacting, um, what, what feels like something that's important to you to see shift?
Jamie: Yeah, that's a good question. The biggest struggle, I guess now is the fact that he's 18. and an adult. And I know he's struggling with the fact too. He has one more year of high school. So I I've felt that if he continues to talk to me and be so disrespectful to me, I don't, I don't want him living here anymore.
I have two younger kids that are seeing this and it's not fair to anybody. And then I think of, well, what does that look like? Like how, how hard do you hold the boundaries? And I, it's just, the biggest question is how much do you let go now that he is adult, but he's still in high school. How much do you try and hold on and have control of helping support him.
And, and I think my biggest problem right now is I'm. I love him and I'm showing him love by holding boundaries. I wish that we had more love and smiles on laughter. Mmm. And that's what makes me so sad, cuz I he's just not happy right now and I don't have any control of it. And he says he wants to go to a four year high school college right after this.
But his grades shockingly are decent just because he is been able to get credits through the process. And he he's at an alternative school part of our public school where he literally does not have to do anything. He's not written a paper. He's not. And I say, I believe you will go to a four year of college.
I don't see it happening right after high school because the work ethic and you have wraparound support right now. You're not gonna get that in college and I'm being realistic. And he thinks that it means that I don't think he can do it. And I keep telling him, show me, don't tell me, show me. Yeah, we have one more year to, and it's all words is the hardest thing I need to see.
Action. I don't wanna hear anymore words. Um, and so he just thinks that I'm being down on him. When I'm being realistic and holding boundaries. So I struggle with, am I doing that? Oh, mom struggle. Am I doing it the right way? Right? Yeah. So the letting go and how much to let go at this stage is what I struggle with.
Yeah.
Brenda: So you talked about, um, being concerned with his, with him being disrespectful and the impact that that's having on your other kids. You talked about wanting to have more love and smiles and laughter
Jamie: and
Brenda: then this issue of the letting go and what's how, how long should the leash be and how, and where should that leash lead out of those three?
What feels like the most important? Like if I could, if we could make some progress in this area, it would feel really good.
Jamie: I think probably how much to let go in this particular situation where he's an adult by a legal. Purposes yet, still a child living on my house. And the one thing has been like the, the marijuana in my house.
I only have control over my house. And I've said, I find it. I take it like, non-negotiable like, that's it. And last week I found some, why are you going through my stuff? I'm like, Hey, I'm not searching through your stuff. You left it on the shelf in your bedroom. and I said, three questions. Have my boundaries been unclear if the cops took it, would they give it back to you?
And what kind of an adult mother high school track coach would I be for me to hang on this back over? And I said, can you answer those questions? Yeah. So just holding those lines and I, I guess that's the only thing I can do in my house, but where else do yeah, he's 18. Where else do I let the leash. Yeah, while still maintaining boundaries for my other kids in the house and respect
Brenda: mm-hmm , that's a tricky one.
Mm-hmm, it's a very unique situation where you have an adult, a legal adult I'll use that term lightly,
Jamie: cuz I know it's
Brenda: and he still has another year of school. Um, so I'm curious if you guys have had any conversations around this, like dude, you're, you know, here's where we are. You're 18. This is now a consensual relationship.
As far as where, where you live, how much support we give you, what, what have been your conversation so far?
Jamie: I've pretty much told him that I am your number one fan and I am here to support you with whatever you wanna do. When I see you doing the work that when I see the action, then I am there to help you.
Until that time, I'm kind of just, it, it was one day that I could, the light switched went, went off when he just like F you I'm going out with my friends tonight on a Thursday night before school's over. And he hadn't finished his and I, I was like, I'm done. I'm not making dinners. I'm not making lunches.
I, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna do this anymore. And he felt that he, he was like, I wasn't gonna drive him. And he felt it. And he kind of turned around. I think it did scare him. So that's kind of where I've been. I'm letting him figure out a lot of it. And then I still, like, he's got low blood right now. He needs to eat.
That's why he is being an a-hole. Right. And I'm gonna make you lunch so, right. Right. Those found like, I'm not doing this anymore. You got it. And then I do, I am still your mom and I see what you need. I'm gonna do it. Yeah.
Brenda: When you say I need to see the actions, is it very clear to him what actions you are looking for and
Jamie: how do you measure that?
Good question? Um, well, in particular, he keeps talking about for your college and he knows that he'll have to do running, start to pick up some, the language, this, um, and he had a teacher who met him at the school last week. She's not in se session. She met him there outta the kindness of her heart and wrote him a list of what needs to get done in order for running start to happen.
He has that list on his desk. So that's one of the action items right now. They're just words. Show me, don't tell me what's the specific
Brenda: action around running start?
Jamie: Well, it was supposed to be done in the. Like apply, apply, apply, apply, apply, get the signature on the application. I mean, just get into the program and you have to have someone from the high school, sign it again.
It's supposed to be done during the school year. Yeah. But he can get them done. So that's like, that's just one example. Yeah. Show me the action.
Brenda: Yeah. The reason I, I drill down onto that so much is I also have an ADHD child and to say, I need you to get a, you know, get the running start thing done. You could say, go to the moon and it would be kind of the same.
So with those kids in particular, and, and it's not that you have to do it, he, he can also do this, but to break that down to say, okay, the, I need to. There's probably 15 steps just in that, right. Just to apply. He has to get some signatures. He's gonna have to make some phone calls. He that's so overwhelming to start thinking about that's literally like I have to go to the moon.
I have to figure out how to go to the moon. How am I gonna get to, I don't even know, is there a rocket ship? Like how do so I wonder if, if this sounds familiar because I, I find with ADHD kids that this is the case, is that to say, here are my expectations and to write them out for them because they can't keep it all up here.
I'm pointing to my head for those of you listening. Um, what are the steps? And, and let's attach some dates to those steps, just so that we know we're tracking and it's not like, oh, if we don't hit that date, all, you know, the world's gonna end. We can always move it, but at least we have a target and then.
He's got that in front of him. And sometimes just breaking it down will relieve a little bit of the overwhelm that goes along with something like, well, just get into the running start program. Like it's so obvious. Um, cuz I did the same thing. it's like, because it, my, my brain functions differently. Like I can keep all track of all of that in my head and the dates and how long it's gonna take and who I need to contact.
So does that sound like something that would help him?
Jamie: Yes. And everything you're saying makes a hundred percent sense on a lot of different topics on this one in particular. My thought is if he, if he is unable and actually his teacher even said this, if you can't eat, do this, then running start is not gonna be a thing that you can manage on your own.
Cause it is you don't. He has wrap around. Support at the public school, he won't there. So that's kind of for this particular topic kind of when I'm waiting for him to show the initiative. Cause I told him I'll help him with it. Mm-hmm uh, what my printer set up now we can print it. I gave him a phone number of my friend in administrative building so that he could call and he did, he called and asked her if she'd be, if she's able to sign it for him.
So that step is done. So I'm kind of waiting for him to show the initiative. Yeah. Cause if he's not showing the initiative being on his own academically at right now, with that said with the other things that I ask him to do, I, I think that's it really break it down smaller.
Brenda: Yeah. Just break it down into smaller chunks and, and it, it can also be just helpful.
And you may already do this to communicate that shift to him to say. Hey, this is, this is what I'm looking for. I, you know, like you said, I'm, I'm willing to help you with this and to, to be able to assess is this initiative, or is this overwhelm? Cause I think we can assume that it's a lack of initiative when it might actually be a case of overwhelm.
And so, and I think it's fine to tell him that and to say, I just realized this might be really overwhelming. I get really overwhelmed when I have to think about whatever. So let's get to a point where you, where we can rule out the overwhelm and then you're on this path, which I'm willing to help you with.
But now that we've broken it down and I can see that it, it can be done. Now you can look for the initiative. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm, just because it's so hard, especially with the ad with ADHD kids to suss that out, which is it. And they're very good at not letting us think that they're overwhelmed with FBOs and the, you know, I'm going out and the, because it's easier to do that than to have to say, mom, I'm overwhelmed by this process.
Mm-hmm so, um, and I think you're really wise to, to have a heads up about running start is college. Like they're on their own. No, one's gonna be checking in on 'em. They're gonna have to get there. No, one's gonna care if they're there or not. Right. . So on the other hand, what some experience that I can share from that is when my son went for, I think the three weeks that he did go to run and start, it completely changed his view, even though he was still actively using, and life was chaotic.
He, I remember him at one point saying, mom, those, those people all wanna be there. they're paying money to be there. And it just shifted his entire viewpoint of school. Again, it didn't work out for him long term, but there was a little bit of that, like, oh, okay, this is kind of what's next. And this is the kind of environment that I could be in.
Even if it's not working out right now, it might be good for him even just to see, to get a glimpse of this is what it looks like when somebody actually pays their own money to go to school. Mm-hmm , you know, um, so just some things to think about there, but yeah, with the other stuff that you're expecting of him, Just breaking that down could, could also be helpful.
How does that feel? Does that feel
Jamie: like a, yeah, I need, I need the, those reminders and yeah, because there's so many pieces of him, the ADHD is just one of 'em totally,
Brenda: totally. Well, you've got a marijuana in, you know, impacted brain. You've got a non, you know, formed prefrontal cortex, which is not helping things at all.
You also have two other kids. You also have a job. You also have, you know, like, so it's no wonder, it's not like a hundred percent of your brain is consumed by trying to figure him out. So, um, so sometimes it's good. That's why I love doing these coaching sessions. It's because for a short period of time, you can just focus on that.
And some things tend to just sort of light up if you want. Do you wanna address the disrespectful thing for just a second?
Jamie: I think that's a good one, cuz that's, that is a big deal. In fact, on the car the other day, when he had that major meltdown. You know, blaming me that he doesn't have a car. And, um, he was supposed to, when he did get a car, uh, he was supposed to be clean and he was cleanish we thought, and then the reality was that he never slowed down his using.
And when I was cleaning out his room or found, um, like why is there a yellow food coloring in here? Well, that makes water turn yellow. That makes like pee .
Brenda: Yes, it does. and even though pro tip for any parent listening who finds yellow food, coloring, coloring, and is confused mm-hmm ,
Jamie: um, warm water. And, you know, when I, I was testing him, I'm not gonna watch my son pee, but I would keep the window or the door cracked.
And he was just crafty enough. They
Brenda: are so brilliant. They
Jamie: are so smart. And someday I believe that he will use this, his craftiness to yes, for good benefit positively. Um, so he, he got that car and he did get in an accident that may or may. I, I believe that speed was he could have been going slower and this, but wouldn't have happened.
Nonetheless, he still blames me that he doesn't have a car. And that when he was just exploding at me and just saying berating me and his dad and just saying all these awful things, and I just looked at him and, and he, he brings it back to the using. I said, you know what, right now you're using a secondary to what's happening right now, yours, my relationship, the way you're talking to me is what we're working at right now.
This is not okay for anyone. Yeah. Um, and it is, we've had the conversation is that this is an abusive relationship. If I was a girlfriend. I would leave. Yes, exactly. Because even though your apologies are heartfelt and I believe you are really sorry that you traded me this way, it's still, it's a, it's a bad habit, a bad cycle.
Um, and it is abusive and we've had this conversation multiple times. I'm your mom. I'm not going anywhere. You need to know that this is not okay. So the disrespect, um, and that attitude right now, in my opinion, is the forefront of him smoking marijuana at night. yeah.
Brenda: Yeah. So what, what is his response when you say that?
Jamie: Yeah, again, it depends on when that conversation happens. I can't have it in the height of, of anything. Yeah. I will say a couple sentences in the height, so she's hearing it, but then I don't engage after that and he gets it. He knows cuz again, he's that empathetic heart. And I will say that. I said, I feel bad for you right now because.
I know this isn't who you are and you're, you're being a bucket dipper. Yeah. When you're attacking me, you're dipping into my bucket and your bucket. That's the dumb book that you had us read when we were in kindergarten. I'm like that book. Have you filled a bucket today as the book? If you haven't read it, I'm like that book should be read by kindergarten through adulthood.
Everyone walks around with an imaginary bucket. You can either be a bucket filler or a bucket dipper. And you're dipping into both of our buckets right now. and
Brenda: mine is just plain
Jamie: empty. Yeah. So, you know, well, I'll, he hears me. He definitely hears me. And again, when we're in a good place, he will say, and, and I'll say the same stuff.
And I'm like, I'm sorry. You're just probably tired of hearing me say the same stuff. He's like, no, no. I listen to you. I hear you. so that's what keeps me going is that I know that it's his biggest struggle is his biggest asset. And that's his big heart because it's everything, he feels everything so wholeheartedly.
So the love is strong and the pain of his and everyone else's is just that much stronger. And the average person doesn't even have the skills to manage it. In addition to being a kid it's too, it's too much to take on.
Brenda: It's a lot. So
Jamie: leading with, and again, another thing I've learned through my ex's journey of addiction and recovery, and my sons is the hardest thing to do.
is to think with empathy instead of anger. Mm. Trying to flip it around word to that. yeah. And it's, it is hard and, and slowing down if you can just slowing down for everybody would fix a lot of things versus slowing down gives you the ability to ability to respond versus react. So that's what I try and do.
And I think all my kids are learning by
Brenda: example as well. Question, does he do this with his dad?
Jamie: Oh yeah. He's meaner to his dad. Okay.
Brenda: And so it's not just you,
Jamie: it's not just me with that said it is just me. that can come back and have the good conversations. Okay. Yeah. Dad is still learning how to like dad the other day.
And this is actually what started the blow up is that dad called him out and called him an addict. Mm. And then that's why that's helpful. yeah. So when I picked him up, that's when this whole, the ride home where I literally pulled over, put my hazard lights on and just let him go, let him just ramble and scream and yell.
And, uh, so I normally, I just walked out the door. I'm like, that's frustrating that you would say that to him. But I came back in, I said, you know what? It's really important for you to slow down and flip the you of all people who have been in his shoes. If I had called you an addict in the throes of your using would that have helped or would you shut me down and been pissed off?
Yeah. So. I'm trying to coach everybody along the way. times I a salmon swimming up hill or swimming up stream. Yes. Yes. Um, so, so your answer, he does treat dad even worse. I mean, his name calling is way worse. They don't normally turn around and have real conversations. Yeah. But he and I can. Yeah.
Brenda: I just wonder, so it sounds like you are pretty skilled at handling that, pulling the car over.
Cause I think, you know, the, the one thing is the, the only one you're in control of is you. And sometimes that's hard in, and I'm thinking in a physical space sense. Like if you are in the car, what do you do if this person is yelling and screaming and sounds like you have some really good tools there pulling over.
You can get outta the car and just let him sit in the car and scream. Right. As long as you take the keys, um, totally. another pro tip. Uh, don't leave the keys in the car with the, with the kiddo and just making sure that he's aware, like you said, I have so much empathy for you right now. I can see that you're hurting.
And I would've been frustrated if somebody had called me an addict, so I get it. And they're still gonna continue to go on and on, right. Cuz of course it's your fault. And then leave the space and, and just say, I'm just, I can't be here right now. I'm gonna leave. Which is harder when you're on the side of the freeway than it is if you're in the home.
But it sounds like you're doing that. And does that, what's the impact of that on him when you distance yourself or if you just stop and let him ride it.
Jamie: Well, yeah. To what you just said, it's much easier if I can give myself a timeout in my room. And literally I have a, because of him have a lock on my bedroom door.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, the car is a tough one because I've done that a couple times. And even as I'm making that decision and pulling over, I'm thinking, I mean, this is a battle of the wits right now and your race, or you've done this multiple times. Like the clock, like how much time do I have to do this? Yeah.
It's, it's hard. And even as I'm doing it, I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing. Should I just be driving home, get him outta the car. Or, but it, in this particular one this week, I just looked at him and listened and it, he did calm down. And then when I've eventually pull over, I'm like, I believe you need to eat and we're gonna go home.
I'm going to make you a sandwich. You need to refuel.
Brenda: I love that. You're thinking outside of just the, the mental. Like, oh, he's such a jerk. He's throwing a fit. You know, you're thinking through what's going on with his body, what's going on with his blood sugar what's going on. And so that's so good for him to see, because he's gonna learn from that to say, oh, I'm feeling really dysregulated right now.
you know, and at some point I'm guessing he is actually gonna think my mom used to make me drink apple juice, or my mom used to make me a sandwich. Right. Those are the things that he can be aware of to help himself down regulate. Um, and, and somebody told me once I need to look this up, that you, a person can really only sort of be angry in that big of a sense for about six minutes.
Mm-hmm like, it's physically impossible to just keep going and going, going. I think the difference with that is if there aren't a substance, that's probably not true, but if he's not on, you know, under the influence, sometimes that's six to 10 minutes to just say, I'm gonna let you do your thing again with empathy.
Like you do. I, I know how much you're hurting right now. You know, these kids are so porous, they just soak in everything that's going on in the world. Whether it's something that they saw in the news or, well, they probably don't watch the news, but something they saw on social media or friends said, or dad said, or.
Something didn't work out or a girl looked at him weird, or a girl didn't look at him or whatever it is. And that just all culminates and you are the safest person to let go with. Cuz he knows you are not gonna abandon him. You are not gonna right. You're gonna be there with him, helping him through it.
So you're the safe spot, unfortunately, for that to all come out. So it sounds like you're doing the best that you can and, and you're modeling for him when you take a time out, dude, I gotta take a time out. I need to eat something. I need to drink some water. I need to walk around the block. Let's restart this in an hour or not restart, but you know what I mean?
Let's pick it back up wherever we were. That's just such healthy modeling for him. He's gonna pick up on that over time. Right. He's gonna be like, oh, okay. This is what I need to do. Breathe. Let's do some breathing exercises. And I know you, you know, all of this, you're a health person, you know, for those of you listening, Jamie's like, I don't know.
She could run 50 miles around anybody before breakfast. So , I'm a sprinter. No, just one time. um, but you are an extremely healthy person and that's such a good model for him as well to see you taking care of your body with all the things that we need to do. So I don't know if that helps from that disrespectful standpoint.
Um, I wish I had, you know, a magic wand, but it sounds like you're doing the right things. You can only distance yourself if that's, if that's going on, be calm, like I know you are and say, wow, this just isn't okay. And it may get to the point where you have to say, gosh, you know, I wouldn't have anyone live in my house that treated me this way.
If a neighbor walked in and started saying this kind of stuff to me, no, my neighbor's not allowed to be here anymore. So what does that look like? You know, where, where else, where else can you live? Cuz I can't live like this.
Jamie: Yeah. We've and we've, I've thought that about that too. And I've said that, you know, no one has ever spoken to me that the way that you do and I've been in customer service and it's just unacceptable.
And I respect myself too much to allow that to continue. And back to what you were saying is the safe spot. I sometimes feel that he's being extra hard on me. to test me to see if I will still stick around. Yeah. Because if he's self, um, his self-talk is so negative, he might be subconsciously thinking, you know, I'm, I'm not lovable.
Even my mom is gonna leave me. Oh no. I might be making that up in my head, but I, I feel like he just tests me to see test my love kind of, and she's gonna stick around even after I'm.
Brenda: Yeah. Well, and you know him best. That's the, that's the thing it's like, it doesn't really matter. You know, whether that's, whether that's something that you would read in a psychology book or hear from a therapist or what doesn't matter, you know, those.
and you know, his patterns. And that, that was one more thing. Um, just before we wrap up, but I wanted to just ask about is if you see patterns, because I think these kids in particular, uh, they do have them, and sometimes if we can interrupt a pattern of, oh, I see this going on, this, this is when this typically happens or a pattern of success.
So a pattern of, wow, we just had four days where it was oddly quiet and there was no big disrespectful outburst. And just trying to recognize what the elements and the ingredients were of those days, whether they were positive or negative, because we do tend, all of us tend to be. You know, we operate in that way, but especially I've noticed these kids have these patterns and they're pretty clear if you start to look at them.
So I wonder if you've noticed anything as far as either. This is kind of how things tend to be when things are calm and quiet and good. And this is how this is what's going on. When things are a little bit more
Jamie: chaotic. I think I see the patterns, but I only can assume that it does have to do with the amount of using and maybe what he's using.
I, I believe it's just marijuana now. Right now. It does seem to be like, there might have been questionable where he ha who he was with last night. And then today he is a monster. So I don't know exactly the patterns. Assumption is that has to do with it. And it is that cycle of, I know I shouldn't be doing this to my body.
He intellectually knows all this, and then he feels bad about himself. That's the cycle as it is with yeah. Using, um, and then he is mean to me and he feels bad about himself. So I'm just gonna smoke again. Yeah. So the, it does seem like when he's the worst to me is when he's had his cycle of, I guess, guilt and shame yeah.
Going on and then it comes to me. Yeah. So it's hard because in those situations, I don't have any control over that, that pattern and that cycle, except for just right. Staying level.
Brenda: Yeah. Or, or, and it sounds like you guys have pretty good communication to say, hi, you know, I've noticed this is kind of the direction this week looks like it's heading.
would you be willing to go with me? I know you guys go stand up, paddle boarding. You, you know, you're a big proponent of getting out and getting the natural endorphins flowing. So even if it's just acknowledging to him, I'm kind of seeing things, taking a nose, dive in the last 24, 48 hours. How about if we kind of, you know, we always talk about trying to crowd out the use, right?
It's not like you can't do this and dah, dah. It's like, let's just crowd it out and fill that time with something else. That's like you said, that's kind of all you can do, right? Cause you can't control who he's with, but offering alternatives. To just, and I think it's just so good to say, this is what I see going on.
This is how I'm feeling. I'm feeling a little like, mm it's. A little sandpapery, let's see what we can do to, to smooth things out. And then if he chooses not to, then that's now, you know what you are gonna do, right. You're gonna distance. You're gonna not make the, you know, maybe leave a little bit of grapes or something.
So his blood sugar doesn't go too far, you know, but you could make it very clear, buddy. When I see this going on, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna try and see if we can go have some of, like you said, the, the smiles and the laughter together so that we can reverse the nose dive. And if that's not cool with you, if you're just not into it, here's what I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna go do. I'm gonna leave some grapes on the counter for you, but I'm not gonna be available until you're back to being like the cool guy that I know you are. You know what I mean? Does that
Jamie: sound like? Yeah. I mean, we, we had a similar situation last week and he said he was gonna go hiking with me.
And the next morning I woke him up and then he just couldn't must himself up there. And I said, okay, pros and cons. The only con is that you have to hang out with your mom for a while, which also could be a pro. And I, you know, you're gonna feel better. I did all the begging and then I stopped myself. I'm like, I'm I did this with his dad.
I'm not gonna beg him that you're gonna feel better. And I told him, I'm like about to throw your dad onto the bus. This is something that we would have something on the calendar. He said he was gonna do something. And then he changed his mind and I would beg and then feel bad. And I'm not gonna do that with you.
And I think the hike will be great for both of us. I'm gonna go get gas. I'm gonna come back. And he decided not to go. And I was pissed for a minute. And realize I only have control over myself when I got on the hike, thinking about what I could have done. I would've started an hour earlier. I would've just done yoga and got a lot more done.
And then I, I realized that this is a blessing that I am out in the woods right now and buying myself, I have this beautiful scenery, these amazing flowers. And so it does start with that. I learned during Alanon or something. Yeah. Changing the dance step. And absolutely. If you change your step, they either have to get off the dance floor or change their dance step too, to continue dancing with you.
Yeah. And I didn't stay mad at them. Like in the, in the past, I would've been just been still frustrated. You know, I communicated when I got. Actually I shared that little writing that I wrote about hiking as like life. Yeah. Yeah. I shared that with him and he said that I think his, his response was I was on text fire which means, I guess cool in that.
Right. As a teenager in lingo in lingo fire means. Cool. Um, and, and I think that has just been so helpful for me, all the learning I've experienced over the past nine years again, through my ex's addiction. Oh my gosh. And yeah, my sons, you only have control over yourself and give yourself grace. Yeah. And, um, Yeah, slow down.
slow down. Yes. You can only do the best that you can do with what you have at the time. And you gotta just be confident in that. And, oh my gosh. Well, you're doing, I'm manifesting you're in the world that my son is gonna be up on some stage or getting married someday and thanking his mother for not killing him.
yes. And keeping him safe and that he's gonna end. Happy self-confident self-sufficient and that's all I can hope for. And I'm throwing it out there.
Brenda: exactly. You know what? That, I don't wanna downplay what you just said, because I have worked with so many parents who have said, I don't see my son or my daughter where they are right now.
I visually envision, I see them, like you said, on a stage or like my son is working with other, you know, young guys. I see them being a pilot. I see them being a dance teacher. I like just that visualization and the positivity that comes from that. Is so much more powerful than seeing and focusing on, well, where are they and who are they with?
And I'm gonna go find that drug dealer's house. And you know, like none of that helps. So I am so glad you said that because I think people undervalue that positive psychology that has to push behind all of these different scenarios and situations. And if you can keep that top of mind when you're in the car and he's yelling and you're like, Ugh, okay, this is now.
This is not forever mm-hmm and that's really powerful. So you you're just doing so much, right. I just hope you know, that you're doing so much. Right. And I think the, I just wanna do a quick review. The things that we talked about as far as just breaking down some of the actions, as annoying as I know that feels sometimes mm-hmm because you are high functioning like me, and we can do a million things in our brain without writing it down.
But for him breaking some of that down and just making sure he is so clear on your expectations and, and adding some timeframes to those. And then we talked about just holding your boundaries on the, on the disrespectful thing and making sure that he knows what your coping mechanisms are and how you're gonna handle those situations.
And I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea to start thinking about. what would it look like if we weren't living together? Because this is not cool, just not cool. And you know, maybe there's a few steps between there, as far as finding another, a different therapist or a mentor or some, you know, I hate adding more therapy to these kids, but if it's the right person and saying, we're gonna try these three things, and if this doesn't change it, then we're gonna look at a different living situation cuz not not doing it.
And I love that you have the self confidence and the self worth that you recognize. No, this is not okay. Absolutely not. Okay. I wouldn't accept this from anybody else. I wouldn't accept this from a stranger on the telephone. Definitely not gonna accept it for my son. So, um, and that's a hard think to have, but it's probably, it's probably one worth just noodling on for a little bit in all your spare time.
all this spare time you have on your hands.
Jamie: Perfect. Yeah, I'm on it now. Believe me, it's already noodling in my head where yeah, I know. Like I know. Yeah. And I think he knows that and it scares him. Yeah.
Brenda: Well, how are you feeling about sort of having some different context and things to think about?
Jamie: Um, great.
I think reminders on that, the way his mind works is sitting down and breaking it down and timeframe. I think I really need to do that cuz I've kind of been like, okay, we're gonna sit down today and do that. And then just not having a. Actually a time on it is. So I'm gonna do that this weekend. We're gonna sit down this weekend.
Awesome.
Brenda: With some, with some grapes or some .
Jamie: I do feed the kid. Don't get around, keep blood
Brenda: sugar going. it's so true though. It's a factor. It is for sure. A factor. So I think it's, I think it's great that you mentioned that because sometimes we just focus on the, the mental and the psychology and the well, and it's like, God, the kid just needs to eat.
mm-hmm we just need to get some food in this body. Yeah. And things are gonna be way better just like for us. Right. So I think of the Snickers, um, commercials, the, the hangry or whatever it is, but yeah. All right. Madeira, I will see you online as always, and we'll just keep at it, right? Yes. Thank you. I'm so
Jamie: appreciative for you in this room and it just feels so nice to come to a group and.
Know that everyone gets it versus like being at a cocktail party and kid parents are talking about, I can't believe my daughter is turning down volleyball scholarship. Cause she wants to focus on her academics. Right. But. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My son, I just had him pulled out of his bedroom at three in the morning and taken away to live in the wilderness for 12 weeks.
Yeah. It'll take your problems. Yeah.
Brenda: You wanna trade?
Jamie: Yes. I know. Appreciate this group that you've, um, created a safe spot of positive mothers who get it and it's definitely different than an Alanon and it's just, it feels great. And so thank you. I'm glad. Thank God. I stumbled upon the stream and reached out to you being a local Seattleite.
So I, I know
Brenda: it's so awesome. It's so great. Um, that we, that we are local together and I think that's one thing that I love too about. The women that, you know, how people, um, attract, like you attract people who are like you. Right. And I was just talking to somebody about this today. I said, cuz she was like, gosh, this sounds like a really terrible group to have to belong to.
And . And I said, well, nobody wants to be a member of my club. Like I have the only, you know, business that I, I wish nobody ever needed. But if you do belong to this club, let's make it as good as we possibly can. Right. Like let's have some fun let's we have to laugh at these kids. They do things they're so brilliant if they, like you said, if we could just shift them to using their brilliance for positive, but we laugh so hard.
Mm-hmm sometimes don't we just like totally. Are you kidding me? Yep. And, and we're all women that, you know, I think we're so passionate about our kids, but also about our communities and just, you know, I, I always think. If we can create healthier kids that then there's the trickle effect that goes with that, that they go out into the community and they go out into the world.
And that might sound a little crazy, but it's like, gosh, for every kid that we can divert away from the criminal justice system that we can divert away from having long term physical and mental implications, um, from this we've just, we've just bettered the world. Right. so
Jamie: hundred percent. I love it. Yeah.
Brenda: Okay. Well, we will talk soon and I look forward to seeing you on light. Yes, you too.
Jamie: Thank you so much for your
Brenda: time. Thanks. Okay. That is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda zane.com/podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there.
So that's very helpful. You might also wanna download a free ebook. I wrote it's called hindsight three things. I wish I knew when my son was misusing drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time.
You can grab that free from Brenda zane.com/hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself. And I will meet you right back here next week.