answers to common CRAFT questions parents have when their child is struggling with addiction or experimenting with drugs, with Erica Lubetkin, LMHC
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
Guest: Erica Lubetkin, LMHC
The Stream Community: a positive, health-focused online space for moms of kids experimenting with or addicted to drugs or alcohol
Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here
Want my weekly email for support during this difficult time? Click here to request it
podcast support from:
This episode is supported by The Stream. You might be wondering who else is listening to this podcast and dealing with the same kinds of issues you are. You may also want to go beyond the podcast and dive deeper into the subjects with other moms who get it.
The Stream is the place where all of that happens. It’s a modern, online space where moms who have kids struggling with substance use and addiction issues focus on their own health, wellness, and sanity. There’s no judgment, and no drama (it's not on Facebook), and our community is based on positive thinking and learning CRAFT skills. We have weekly events, a book club, yoga classes, workshops, expert guest speakers, and supportive conversations.
Being a member of The Stream gives you an even deeper connection beyond the podcast where you get to interact with amazing moms and me every day. So if you'd like to hang out with us after the episodes, you can learn more and join us at www.thestreamcommunity.com. The first two weeks are always free to see if we’re your kind of people, so there’s no risk to check us out. We’re waiting for you there.
episode resources
Hopestream episode 96 with Erica speaking about how to use a CRAFT-informed response to relapse
Beyond Addiction, How Science and Kindness Help People Change (book)
episode transcript
SPEAKERS
Brenda Zane, Erica Lubetkin
brenda: [00:00:00] Welcome. You're listening to Hopestream. This is a podcast for parents who have a teen or young adult child who are either experimenting with drugs or alcohol, or they may be inactive addiction or in a treatment program. So if that sounds like you, you have landed in the right place. I'm Brenda, Zane, your host, and a mom who went through this experience myself. I'm also a certified health and wellness coach and a parent coach. And I spend my days helping parents navigate this world of kids and substance use. And if you want to learn more about my work, you can go to Brendazane.com.
All right, let's get into the show. Today, we're going to talk about the CRAFT approach. CRAFT C R A F T is an acronym that stands for community reinforcement and family training. And it is an evidence-based approach. Meaning there is research that has been done verifying that this is a very effective approach that you can use with someone to help motivate them toward positive change in their substance use. And we're going to be diving into some of the most common questions I get from families. I work with. Related to using CRAFT with their kids. And when I say kids that could be anywhere from a 13 year old to a 30 year [00:01:30] old. So This is going to be a conversation about how to actually put the CRAFT approach to work when things are really hard and broken in your family.
When you're not on the same page as your co-parent. Or if you don't have a co-parent. When your center daughter doesn't live near you or with you? All the things, all of the difficult things. The questions are ones I curated from members in the stream, which is our online community, where I hang out in between episodes. And where the moms have kids in various stages of struggle with drugs and alcohol. And of course the mental health challenges that come along with those.
Our guide for this conversation today is the incredible Erica Lubetkin, who is a certified CRAFT therapist in New York city. She was also with me a while back on episode 96, where we talked about. Uh, using CRAFT when your son or daughter has a lapse or a relapsed. It is excellent. I have heard people are listening to it 2, 3, 4 times, because it is so juicy. She gives a great practical ideas to use.
There's even a download that you can use in the show notes for that show. So be sure to go back to get that one episode 96.
A little bit about Erica. She has her own private practice in New York. She is also part of the therapy team@wedavillage.co, where they offer courses in [00:03:00] CRAFT. So be sure to go check those out. There are links in the show notes where you can find Erica and we, the village and everything about her. What I love about Erica is that she is so real. She doesn't use psychology speak.
And since she is working with families every single day, she's very realistic about how to use CRAFT in real life settings. Because you, and I know sometimes what you read in a book and sometimes what a therapist will tell you is not how it actually goes down in your living room. She is just a gym. We had so much fun reconnecting from the last show that we kind of forgot that we were recording.
And so what you're going to hear first, as we get into this is a quick tangent that we had on pre laps. That time when you can see the freight train coming down, the tracks. Looking you right in the eyes. Or you may be heading into a place, a setting or a season that tends to be a real challenge for your child. And you are worried about that relapse.
So we chat about that for a few minutes. Before we dive into the community questions. You know, it's just how we roll with things here on Hopestream. I could have figured out how to edit this out, but I thought it was valuable. Information that we just happened to be chatting about before we actually started the episode.
So it will be a very fruitful conversation for you. If you were [00:04:30] working on using the CRAFT approach with your son or daughter. So without anything else from me, let's just jump right into it with Erica.
Erica: I mean, I will say, summer being around the corner, the idea of people sitting outside and having cocktails, you know, eating outside, like prepare, helping your loved ones, sort of prepare for that. It makes you more susceptible to the triggers, the people, places, things, all of that stuff. So that's part of thinking about the pre-labs and just like things that are surrounding any triggering events, And obviously, you know, with younger people, it's a little bit different, but if your child is in college, like preparing for what coming home for summer may feel like to sort of ease that whole prolapsed mentality. Does that make sense?
brenda: totally because I remember being a mom of high school or who was struggling summer was probably the worst two and a half months of my life because you're at work. Your kid is, has nothing to do if they haven't gotten a job, which these kids typically, or sometimes they do, but sometimes they don’t. And so they have all this time. It's like they got nothing to do. They're bored and that is just grounds for trouble. [00:06:00] And so I can totally relate. And it's also like festival season. So all your friends are going to Coachella and they're going to whatever. And it's like, how are you going to do that? And not use anything right.
Erica: Absolutely. It is definitely one of it's an environment like, summer and I can, these days with, alcohol. Being so just like pretty and marketed like these, Hard seltzers or basically anything in a can that has a pretty, a label on it.
People say summer in a bottle or summer in a can, there's actually a wine called summer in a bottle. But summer in a can and it just entices people into having a relationship with substances in the summer and festival season, for sure. But what I can say about like festivals is I've been to quite a few in my time, I used to be a huge festival goer and there are sober tents, sober meetups at all of these festivals. There's a big one here in New York city called governor's ball and they have, something called sober ball and it's a tent that has meetings throughout the day.
And you can go to. And you can go to meetings and you can go around with other people who are in recovery and enjoy the music, enjoy the food. And I spent a full day of, you know, the weekend just, going [00:07:30] with the silver ball just to see what it was like. And it's really incredible if you're a parent and you're listening to this, or you're hearing this and you don't know about this, like it is a resource to look into. Even if you know that your child's or, or loved one is going to book. Do a quick Google search look up. Are there any sober communities? All of these big concerts and bands that are usually typically associated with drugs and alcohol have communities of silver people.
Then go to these shows together. And it's a beautiful thing. I know so many people that see, you know, the grateful dead, you know, Phil Lesh and friends, they see shish, all of these things sober and it's beautiful and it's wonderful. And you can enjoy the music and it doesn't take you to that euphoric recall that makes you want to use drugs because you're with people who are just so happy to be hearing the music with.
Sober Ball really at governor's ball was a game-changer for me. I thought it was one of the coolest things I've seen in terms of the young community in recovery in a long time. And this was probably six years ago at this point where I first. You know, notice it and, and, and did some research on it.
And the young recovery world has only grown since then. So I can, I can imagine like what resources [00:09:00] exist now.
brenda: That's super Cool. because I do know that that strikes fear in the heart of every parent whose kid is like, Hey, I'm going to insert name of festival here. And you're just like, Oh my God, so that is super good to hear. I'm really glad to hear that. And I'll put some information in the show notes. I'll do a little bit of research on that.
I think especially like the EDM concerts are just not tutorials for drugs and, and that whole experience, but Yeah, knowing that there's some options there, because it's going to be impossible to say, no, you can't ever go to a festival again.
Like that's just not even realistic, so good to know. Awesome. Okay.
Erica: The more you know
brenda: The more you know, I know, I don't know where's that from? Is that like from Mr. Rogers or something?
Erica: I don't know, it was the shooting star
brenda: Oh, yes. Yeah. PBS,
Erica: PBS. Yes.
brenda: How a bill becomes a law. That little do Hickey thing. That was also fun.
Erica: Got a love these little PSA's.
brenda: know we digress. Well, I'm excited to catch up again because, you and I did the episode about using CRAFT in relation to relapse. And then so then we had a little tangent just now on that, which is awesome. But what I did is I went back and I pulled the stream community moms.
And different people and said, what is hard about CRAFT for you? You know, what's tripping you up. What do you [00:10:30] really struggle with? What questions do you have? And so I got a long list of questions. And these are all, you know, parents who have, have read beyond addiction or they're reading it and they're really working through it.So I thought it would be just a good chance to ask the pro of some of these questions, so, if you're down for that, I'll just pepper you with questions.
Erica: I am, we can rapid fire, but you know, my answers are going to be way longer than a rabbit fire. However, I am down for the questions I always say I love this topic so much CRAFT. I'm very passionate about it, and I love talking about it with you. And I'd love to answer any questions and Hey, you know what?Maybe I'll get something on a few things and need you to help me.
brenda: Well, I don't know about that, but I think what's great is, and you do this too in with the village, you know? It's one thing to read about it. And then it's another to put it into practice day to day, especially for the moms in the stream who are, you know, practicing CRAFT in their living rooms and in their cars.
And it's so real. And, and we get the real time feedback in the stream. It's like, oh, Hey, I just got out of the car and had this conversation with my son. How could I have done that better? And so I love kind of the realness of it. And one, one question. Comes up a lot is either my kid just will [00:12:00] not talk like they're angry, they're shut down.
They moved to a different room. Every time I try to have a conversation. And also my kid doesn't live with me. Right. He's 22 or she's 25 and it's, you know, they're away at college or they're in a different city and we do a lot of texting how in the world do I do this CRAFT thing? Either if they won't talk or if they're in a completely different location than me,
Erica: Right. I think that it’s all about being creative with this stuff. And I think one way to be creative with CRAFT, if somebody will not talk, there is no way that they will. Engage with you in a conversation around any of this stuff. One thought I have is try and find something that you can both connect on and use that as a jumping board for building connection.
Your child with your loved one, having nothing to do with substances, because perhaps the idea is so overwhelming for them that they can't engage in that conversation. So maybe having a conversation about, I don't know, sports, let's say there's this, there's a lot of sports happening right now. Right?
There's the finals and basketball and loving, letting the person know that you are willing to. Have communication that is outside the realm of [00:13:30] addiction and your concerns for it, obviously that is the primary concern in terms of what we want to be discussing with our loved ones, but sometimes talking about things that aren't, the thing can be a very good entryway to being able to build a deeper connection, more trust, less judgment, less.
From our loved ones. When we come at them saying, I want to have a conversation, I want to talk. And that can be a little entry pointed to maybe, you know, two, three weeks down the line after having good rapport about basketball.
I don't know sports at all. So, uh, festivals or or, did you see what like happened with the revolve festival?
Like, you know, looking up as a parent, what happened at the river? Aspect of the influencer side of the festival and talking about something that has nothing to do with drugs or alcohol, but just the absurdity of a bunch of people and flower crowns waiting for a bus to come in the desert and then sort of having a little, you know, connection moment about that and seeing where that leads could be a way of entering it.
And also, I always think that, and I wonder your thoughts on this, but I always think. Writing a letter is a really good way of saying something that you may need to say, if somebody will not listen, if somebody just will not listen, they may rip the [00:15:00] letter up. They may say, I need to come to this at another point, but it's there and it could be an email.
It could be a letter that you just slide under the door. And at the end of the letter, whenever you're ready to talk about this, we can talk about it. You can return to it at a certain point, but you know, I think when you're facing somebody who's so resistant to talking about it, you've got, gotta meet them where they're at.
And by forcing the conversation, you're not meeting them where they're at and you're not going to get anywhere. I mean, sometimes there are, there's no, like nothing that I say is a sweeping statement, you know, there's,
brenda: there's, an exception to every rule for sure. Yeah, I do love that because I'm in for anybody whose kids have been through wilderness therapy, letter writing is a huge part of that. And the reason why is because it's so effective, right? Because. A lot of times, communication has broken down and you just can't talk like, it just, it blows up every time somebody gets pissed off, somebody gets mad, somebody punches a hole in the wall. Like it, it usually doesn't go well. And so I do love the idea of letter writing and. I've, I've talked to several people and I know it's true for myself that my son still has letters that I wrote to him and vice versa because, he would write letters to me even when he ran away. One time he left me a letter before he ran away and he said, I'm not being forced to do this. And I, you [00:16:30] know, so I love that you brought that back because I think we forget sometimes that that can be really powerful, I think we often do rely also on texts and stuff like that, but what if you were to actually write a letter on a piece of paper and put it in the mail to your person and they get it in their mailbox
Erica: with a stamp.
brenda: a stamp on it? Like how amazing would that be? Because that's just, I don't know. It's so different. It seems much more personal and. Impactful if you're,
Erica: Absolutely. And we've become so disillusioned to mail. Mail is either a bill or it's a thank you card or an invitation. Oh, it's like something that either put on the fridge or to throw away or to ignore until the due date, but to have a letter sent in the mail. That actually means something is so powerful. And I just want to go back to what you said about your son, writing you a letter saying I'm not doing this. He that's a, that's a really good, just like vantage point of the quote I'm air quoting right now, identified patient,
brenda: yes.
Erica: not being able to verbally communicate their needs, their desires, their wants, and using the method of writing a letter to tell mom, I can't do this.
As a way for mom to hear it in a way that like is not, you know, confrontational, not a conversation [00:18:00] that's going to lead to explosive, explosive you know, language or behavior. So I think that hearing that somebody is able on that end to even do that is pretty powerful too, because it's not just us that may need to write a letter. Maybe our loved ones will need to write a letter back to us in response. And that's okay.
brenda: Right. There's nothing wrong. Cause I know for a while I felt like, well, I shouldn't be able to have this conversation verbally. Like I, for some reason, I don't know where this came from. I felt like writing a letter was kind of a cop out and now I really have a different point of view on that because I think it takes a lot of bravery to write words on paper, make them permanent in that way and give them to somebody.
For them to hold on to. So if you're, if you're listening And you've been thinking about writing a letter, I think we would both really encourage you to try that form. If communication has broken down, if it's not happening, if they consistently move away from you, when you're trying to talk, it just could be another, you know, another approach
Erica: And also for those who are dealing with long distance CRAFT, implementation letters, you know,
brenda: Yeah.
Erica: Send a letter,
brenda: Yeah.
Erica: you can't physically meet up for coffee or, or whatever, if your, your loved ones with college across the country or abroad whatever it may be, you can absolutely write a letter. And I also think when it comes [00:19:30] to that distance piece, which I don't want to forget, because it is important.
There's a lot of people deal with that. Sort of collaboratively setting communication boundaries in a way that. Letting your loved one, know I'm not going to blow you up via text message. Send you a hundred text messages about this. If I have a thought, I will send a concise message to you and hope that you return it or an email or.
Maybe we can plan for a FaceTime or a phone call when finals are over, whatever it may be. And it takes a little more planning, but I will say it is possible. I have worked with people that are not physically with their loved one so many times. And just shifting the way you engage in the texting, the way you engage in the phone calls, the way you engage in the constant need to monitor.
Shifting that and setting boundaries for yourself. Maybe even, I won't be responding to texts between this time and this time, because I'm in a meeting on Tuesdays at this time. So if you reach out to me, I won't be able to respond to it because often another, you know, on the other side of the coin is if our loved ones are struggling.
Freaking out about, you know, something that happened or something they did. And they're sending [00:21:00] us hundreds of messages a day. It can be overwhelming. So we need to set some boundaries too. So I think, you know, for that, it's, it depends on where you are. What country, what state, like the distance actually.
Are you going to ever see the. But I think just another little creative way to sort of think about this is, is there anyone that, you know, that is with your loved one who's far away from you that you can trust to reach out, to, to say, Hey, can you just keep an eye on so-and-so and, and make sure they're okay.
Can you make sure that you have Narcan? A roommate? I, you know, it's, it depends on the situation. Tapping into the local resources that your loved one has in the place that they are at can help eliminate just a little bit of the worry. And also it can help with the communication because you're loving your loved one, know that you care enough about them to, you know, not go behind their backs ever because that's, you know, deceptive and that will break the trust.
But saying, you know, I reached out, would it be okay if I reached out to your roommate's mom who lives nearby? Make sure that she is aware that
X, Y, and Z may be going on. I don't want to create a, an example that doesn't exist right now, you know, but do you know, does that make sense?
brenda: Yeah, it does. And you know what I really love about what you said is the boundaries around texting. I mean, it seems ridiculous, [00:22:30] but like, I feel like we can have an entire podcast episode around texting and what goes into text and what doesn't. And what I ended up finally doing was I would text what I was going to text to my son to myself, and I would read it because you, a lot of times. When you're texting you, you're assuming that other people know a lot about what they don't know. Like you, you know what I mean? It's just, it's really hard to text, complete thoughts and, and they can get so misconstrued because there is no context when you're reading a text, especially if you're across the country, you haven't seen your mom for three months.
You don't know what's going on. So that's one way to, to. Just text it to yourself first and see how it comes across or have a partner or somebody else in, in your space, read it and say, how would this land with you if it was landing? Yeah, like if it, if this was completely out of the blue and it landed in your phone, how would it come across? And so I think the idea of a FaceTime also, or whatever technology you use WhatsApp, just to say, let's just see each other face to face every week. Just even if it's for five minutes, because the other thing, and this didn't happen to me because my son was close by. But to a lot of moms, I know their kids are away and they don't physically see them. So they don't see the physical decline. Of hygiene and weight loss And the kind of the [00:24:00] vacant eyes. And so just to get eyes on your kiddo every once in a while, I think is a really good idea. If you can,
Erica: absolutely. And it can be, Hey, I want you to like, say hi to the family dog once a week. You know, it doesn't have to be, I want eyes on you. I think that's, you know, another, another it's that creativity aspect of it. Obvious that you're going to be calling about. You know, I want to see if your eyes are bloodshot, but I do.
I do love the idea of sort of writing out the full text and sending it to yourself and reading it. Because especially these days with these new iPhone upgrades, you can reply to a certain text and then other things get missed and you people put little like heart emojis or bubbles onto a textbook. And as a parent reading does that mean that they love what I said or that they're just busy and they're not even reading it. It could be very confusing. So to have a full, you know, thought out thing that you want to say it. Yeah. We could do a whole podcast on habits, just period. How to tax in
brenda: Yes. Text school, text 1 0 1. The other thing, that I saw this week in our community, which I thought was pretty amazing was a mom and her daughter, her daughter is recently on Suboxone. I think she is 17. And this would be good in another relapse episode, but her mom, she and her mom have an agreement that if she is feeling like.[00:25:30] Potentially going to have a lapse or relapse, or if she needs to talk about something serious, she texts her an apple emoji. I don't know why an apple, but that's just their signal. And so I think even something like that can be a good way just to say, Hey, I know you don't want to talk about this because this is still all going back to the original question of what do you do if they don't talk, if they don't, you can, maybe that's something that you try is, do you know what I understand? You don't want to talk, if you ever do text me a pineapple or whatever it is.
Erica: I loved that idea Brenda.
brenda: it's yeah, I wish I could say that was mine. That wasn't mine, but Well, I mean, we're all here to like be creative and learn from each other, which is the best part of CRAFT and community exactly. Exactly. Okay. So I, we have so many more, I'm just going to move on here. Okay.
Hey there, I'm taking a quick minute to tell you about a resource that you can take advantage of. If you're a mom, who's going through this experience with your son or daughter and you want real. Real meaningful connection with other moms. If you're looking for a positive space that is not connected to Facebook or any other social media sites.
You can join us in the stream, which is a private membership. Think of it as a mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual health club. For moms of kids who are experimenting with or addicted to drugs or alcohol. I know it is not the [00:27:00] club you want to qualify for. But we are a group of highly passionate and loving women who are all supporting each other. And we would love to have you.
We have multiple events each week where you can get on and connect one-on-one. And we also host live, get togethers and retreats because someone needs to be taking care of you. And that is what we do. You can get all the details and join us free for two weeks to check it out. At thus dream community.com.
Okay. Back to Erica. So the next one that the mamas wanted to know about was. When your son or daughter does not believe that they have a problem. So they're using to a degree to which is harmful to their health and safety and all of that, but they are not yet feeling the consequences. Like they haven't been kicked out of college or high school. They haven't gotten a DUI. They haven't lost a job they're managing and the parents are worried.
Obviously, and they're numb, you know, they're just not seeing those natural consequences. And so they're wondering, are there some things that they can do in a CRAFTy way that might help that conversation or help their kids start to see? Oh, actually, maybe this is a.
Erica: Yeah, absolutely. This is probably one of the most common things, especially. [00:28:30] You know, young adults who are maybe experimenting and don't realize that their experimentation is going too far. And, and just, you know, high school or early in college or at whatever age.
But I think what really comes to mind is, again, meeting, meeting your loved one, where they're at not being judgmental, having like open non-shaming dialogue all of these things. Really really important when you enter these conversations. And I think that there are so many ways today. Thankfully, today the world is opening its eyes to addiction and knowing there's just more information than ever before, out there about substance use disorders.
And I mean here in New York city right now, and this is. Like something that I'm thinking of as a strategy for, answering your question. Marijuana is legal and there are commercials on TV right now that are saying, if you're gonna smoke pot, make sure you're smoking away from other people. Like there are guidelines, you know, like, you know, drivers, if you're going to drink, please try it.
Like drive responsibly, drink responsibly. There's commercials now for things like weed. So smoke responsibly, if something like that were to come on. And I was working with the New York City family, I would say that is a, that is an [00:30:00] opportunity to have a conversation with your loved one about smoking pot.
Oh, it's legal now. So what are your friends doing? How are you doing with it? Have you noticed that there's a difference between the way your friends are using it and the way you're using it? Are there certain situations where you feel like you need, I think to get more information and use the information that's out there to support.
You know, be cool about not to sound uncool what I'm saying this, but to like, be cool about the idea of like, yeah, pot's legal. Like let's talk about how to use it responsibly. Just like schools do about alcohol. You know, when alcohol is legal, how to use it responsibly. And if you're concerned that there is using, going on, that is more indicative of a problem, maybe just giving a little education.
Saying, you know, have you heard the term hangs diversity? It's a very trending term these days, with the younger people. And I think it's just trending in general and saying, I read a really interesting article on hanxiety that I never knew before. When you drink alcohol. Your body is constantly trying to maintain a level of homeostasis.
So when you added a depressant into your system, your body creates more cortisol as a way to balance out the depression. So it gives you a little bit of stress [00:31:30] and when the alcohol wears off or the pot or whatever, the depressive. The substance is the depressant substance is wears off. You're left with all this extra cortisol, which makes you more stressed and anxious.
I never realized that for myself before, have you realized that for you and that can open up a conversation? You know, there's this like that's one way. But I also think having conversations and having it be. Not something that is only discussed around your child, having a problem, rather, let's be a household that openly talks about smoking pot and drinking, so that if, and when you feel like you're getting out of control, you can always come to me.
I will never judge you because when a child lives in fear of their parents, judging them for, you know, doing drugs or drinking, they will never be honest with. They'll never see it as a problem. If you can, you know, create an environment where like, I mean, it's, it's, it's difficult, but if you can create an environment where it's normal, it's normalized to be able to talk about this stigma, shame related topics, then it can open up a dialogue if your child is struggling.
And if you think that they are to say, Hey, are you. Are you, you [00:33:00] know, maybe getting a little too carried away with the drinking on Fridays and Saturdays, because at your soccer game, you were a little off on Sunday, you know, it could be that I know for me growing up, it was always, always an open discussion.
Like we always had open dialogues about. Substances. I didn't, mentioned it, the tub at the top of the podcast, but my dad is a clinical psychologist. So I grew up in a feeling's house where I was always, how are you feeling? And like, oh, are you anxious about your lacrosse game? Let's do some meditation.
brenda: That's awesome.
Erica: It is, it is. And I think it was really helpful for me to know that I could talk to my parents about the things that were stressing me out so that if I was stressed out about, you know, drinking or whatever it may be, it was a S it was a safe space.
So if you can create a safe space, nonjudgmental again, I go back to that.
Non-judgemental curious, I'm curious what this is doing for you. Like, what are you, what relief are you getting from it? Are you getting relief from social anxiety? Because then there's the opportunity to drop in that hangs it tidbit of information, you know? So what do you think?
brenda: I always think. And this is what I.
talk about is if your kid, this is the mindset that you want to create, which is if your kid was to get in trouble or to be [00:34:30] really worried about something, instead of thinking, I don't want to make sure my mom and dad don't find out, you know, You want them immediately to think I need to go talk to my mom and dad, and the only way they're ever going to have that mindset is if they know that you are that safe space.
And, and I think what gets confusing about that, and we'll have to do a whole nother episode on this is then especially when they're younger. So let's say they're 14, 15, 16. How do you balance being a safe space and also putting up some Consequences or some, some punishments to say, you know, do I just let my 15 year old continuously come to me and say, oh, I drank again.
Oh, I drank again. Oh, I smoked pot again. You know, like how do you be the safe space, but also there's going to have to be some consequences. And I, and I know that parents struggle with that because the minute you put down those consequences, do you then violate the safe space, which I don't know.
Erica: I hear you with that one. And with the consequences. Two other like CRAFTs, procedures, and modules, one of which is like rewarding behavior that you want to reinforce and then withdrawal of the reward. When you see that behavior when you see behaviors that you don't want to ranch horse happening. So if there's too much of a sensor saying, like, I'm really proud of you for coming to me, [00:36:00] Your, you know, with your honesty about your drinking too much, but at this point I'm becoming a little concerned about it. So I think for the next few weeks, we should have family night on Fridays instead of you going out with your friends So that is like a non-threatening I'm not taking everything in your life away and it could come. Two 16 year old is your ending their world and their life. And how could you do this to me? There's a party at Jimmy's house Friday. I really wanted to go having an understanding. I understand that this is going to be stressful or difficult for you, but I want to make sure that you're safe.
brenda: Yeah,
Erica: It's all coming from a place of love and concern. I'm happy to talk about it with.
brenda: right?
Erica: Always like having that because yeah, if somebody is continually coming to you, I drank, I drank and you're nice about it. Oh, great. Did you meet anyone new? Like, did you meet anyone at the bar? Like, no, we don't want that. No, that's not what we want, but we do want them to feel that they can come to us and that the consequences are not. So egregious that it will. Traumatize them to never come to us again. So finding the balance, being sent to your room, taking all the electronics away, being grounded, all of those like intense, intense punitive actions that some parents can take and [00:37:30] sometimes create an environment where the kid is going to rage against the machine.And it doesn't work as well. As you know, maybe saying for the next few weekends, let's, let's do pizza. Or let's do cooking night and see how
brenda: volunteer at the food shelter, you know, the homeless shelter or the soup kitchen or whatever. That's always a good one, too, that it takes them out of their chosen, you know, party environment potentially. And there is really, honestly, it's so hard to. Spend an hour serving other people and not feel good about it.It's just almost impossible or an animal shelter, you know, especially for younger kids, like, okay, this is the next two Fridays, you're at the animal shelter and they're probably still gonna hate you, you know, like grumble about it. But there's also, there's just a lot of good stuff that. good chemicals. I think that get into the brain when you're in that
Erica: Oh, absolutely. At like animals petting an animal helps regulate the nervous system it's been proven. So there's nothing wrong with that. Absolutely.
brenda: Yeah. Okay, cool. That's that's a good one.
Okay. So that's a big question. Then there's this concept that I think we hear about when we're starting to learn about CRAFT, which is motivational hooks. And so I'd love to know what is a motivational hook and how could we use them with our kids.
Erica: So a motivational hope is an interesting thing that happened [00:39:00] that we use in the module with getting somebody to want to go into treatment. Meaning like assessing where they are in terms of their motivation. Looking at the motivational stages of change and I think of motivational hooks and windows of opportunity in the same vein and. Things that work together. So meaning if somebody says, oh, you've been acting like really nice towards me lately, what's wrong with you? Or what do you need, or what's going on?
That's sort of a window of opportunity and a period in which we can sort of use a motivational hook today to say like, oh, well, you know, I've been so nice recently because I've been taking this course on CRAFT. Me learn how to engage with you and help you get into a place where you feel comfortable talking to me.
I know that that's like very like dynamic and, and not very easy to follow. I'm trying to come up with a better example off the top of my head with motivational, but it all really like it. It's looking for windows of opportunity and then using those opportunities to hook somebody into getting motivation.
So if your kid comes up to you and, and, asks what's that book you're reading. If you're reading beyond addiction, that's an opportunity to say like, oh, it's a book about X, Y, and Z. And how do you feel about it? And that's sort of a way [00:40:30] to get an assessment of where they land in their motivation.
Like where they feel they are most comfortable talking about their motivation to get any sort of treatment. Also if somebody says, you know, I'm so tired of feeling this way, that is a window of opportunity to say, well, what can we do to get you out of feeling this way? What can we do to get you into a place where you were feeling.
Better, would it be getting a therapist? Would it be getting so it's windows of opportunity and motivational hooks kind of go hand in hand because when we see a window of opportunity and use that as a motivational, like as a, as a moment to hook someone into being more motivated, that's like a magical moment.
brenda: Right. What I love. And you did it and you probably don't even know it because you're a therapist, but what you did when your child says, oh, I'm so sick of feeling this way, I'm so tired of blank. I think the natural parent responses. Okay. So I have this thing lined up and we can be there.
We can go there on Tuesday and it's this, you know, really great treatment program. And we just jump into solving that problem. And what you did is you said, oh, well, what could we do to, you know, what are your ideas about what we can do to get you to a place where you don't feel that way? So you put it back on them, which is so counterintuitive.
I think, to a parent, especially when, if you've been waiting and waiting. And [00:42:00] waiting and you're waiting for that window to open. And then the finally the window opens and you pounce through the window with like 18 different solutions that is probably not going to be really Well, received. So that, that was just something I noticed that you did that.
I think parents tend not to just naturally do because we're not typically therapists.
Erica: Well, yeah, only my dad. No, I'm kidding.
brenda: Your dad would
Erica: no, but yeah, no, that's definitely a much better example than the first one I gave because saying like, oh, you social again, social anxiety, right? That, that old, that you're anxious about going to this party. What are some ways that you think that you can manage. And then you can sort of bring in, I read this story and self magazine or whatever or on a are unwell in good, a cool, like, you know, blog online about this term hangs identity. And maybe you're getting anxiety from the It's all about being creative and experimental. And also sometimes you can another type of motivational health is sort of letting your loved one, your child know what therapy can look like in a way that isn't join me in a session. I have a session lined up for you, but here's a really cool article on like mental health in the youth of America.
Let's read it together. What are your thoughts on it? And that's them sampling what [00:43:30] counseling and, therapy can look like because. In some scenarios and some schools, the guidance counselors, your only vantage point of what a therapist looks like. And that is not, I mean, it's just generally, like, it's, it's more like a punitive thing again, like all you're going to the guidance counselor versus I need help.
I'm going to go to the guidance counselor. So there's so much out there on like what to expect in the therapy session. What any sort of self-help can look like what help from others can look like. So sort of being a little creative, doing a little research and then having that ready on hand. If, and when you need to having some tabs open on your computer or your phone with, cool websites.
Instagram's a great place. I know the stream is on Instagram. Instagram is a great place to sort of be like, oh, I found this really cool account. Did you know that Melissa would help? Is I don't know why I'm bringing her up. She's she hasn't had a drink in a few years and she's not technically in recovery, but you found that it made her feel good.
She's a really cool. Influencer a fitness lady. I'm not quite sure other than I know that she's beautiful and she's in recovery or she does not drink. so those kinds of things, you know, can also be helpful, just like getting on our kids page, getting on their level.
brenda: Yes. it's, it's really important to do that. And we do have [00:45:00] resources in our community about like celebrities who are sober rappers, who don't smoke weed and don't drink the purple drink or whatever that is the.
Erica: Yeah. The scissor.
brenda: Yeah. And, and there are a lot of them, but you don't tend to see them unless you really seek them out. So I think that that's a great idea. And I've heard too, you know, as kids start to get older and they're like, oh gosh, you know, I always had in Envisioned myself going to this college or that college, or I wanted to do this job. And they're starting to see that what they're doing is not getting them closer to that. It's actually getting them further away. So it sounds like that might be one of those motivational hooks too, to say, oh, you used to talk a lot about going to whatever college or going to this trade school or whatever it is. And I don't hear you talking about that as much anymore. Those are some of the things that I think we can listen for or listen for the absence of, I guess, two would be important,
Erica: Yes. I mean, I, the word, listen, just resonated so much with me because so much of this is listening when you think about just the concept of motivational interviewing, which is basically like it is fused into CRAFT One of the most powerful parts of it is active listening
brenda: Yeah,
Erica: and learning how to really listen, because when you listen, it's when you go through your day with the headphones on walking through the streets of New York [00:46:30] city, that's where I am.
You don't hear the birds chirping. You don't hear the annoying sounds as well, but when you take the headphones off and you really listen, wow, what an opportunity to sit in the park for just five minutes. So if you really tap into that listening and being more reflective, you can find more windows of opportunity that you can then use motivational hooks with.
Then you, then I, I think then we think we can it's it's about, it's a practice. Everything is a practice and I will say. That nothing. I mean, sometimes this change happens overnight, but most often it doesn't and our loved ones and with us. So if you find that you're having a hard time with it, it's a muscle to continue to flex, to work on, to build.
And it w you will get there, you will get there and you will be able to sort of tune into these windows of opportunity and motivational hooks over time. You know, one of the good things about the younger generation is they are more tuned into mental health than any generation ever before. So the idea of these things that can sort of be helpful are not so foreign to them versus even, you know, 20, 30 years ago, trying to get somebody a motivational hook was I'm going to literally take up.
Hook that they use to pull bad performers off-stage and throw you [00:48:00] into treatment. Like that's what it was. That's what it was. It's not that anymore. So just keeping that in mind.
brenda: Yeah, there's so much more psychology behind it. That I think is accessible. What I love about CRAFT is it makes that, what I think of is really complicated, psychology, really accessible to parents to be able to use day to day. And that kind of leads to another question that When, you know, a lot of times people come into either my community and the stream or they come into the partnership or they come to, the village where you are, and this is all brand new information.
This is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What are you saying? And it's so different than the mode of operation that they've been in, which is yelling, screaming, shaming, blaming can't you see what you're doing to me? You're killing me. You're killing your dad. You know, you're killing yourself. And so this is a whole, like a 180 from that it can feel like.
And so how, if that's the mode that we've been in and we're like, okay, I'm going to try this. You know, it is, evidence-based, there's a lot of research behind CRAFT, but my partner or my spouse, or my co-parent, or my. Is not onboard with this. They are like, you're crazy. I'm this kid just needs to get his act together.
How do you reconcile that? Because. It's so common and, and I often hear moms coming around first. Cause I think sometimes we're just like, I will just [00:49:30] do anything. And I'm willing to say that what I've been doing is wrong. And I know there are dads that do the same, but this is the scenario that I see a lot is my ex husband or my partner or whoever it is, is not onboard with this CRAFTing.
It feels too soft. It feels too squishy. It feels too psychological. What do they do?
Erica: That is a very, very common issue. And the unfortunate issue that a lot of people encounter. I think a few thoughts come to mind per usual, membrane, Marriage counseling. I think one of the first things that you can do is let know. Child or loved one who's struggling. No, I am trying a new approach with you. I know dad has his own way and I just want you to know that you can come to me and I am trying to change the way I engage with you around this topic. I'm not putting your dad down. I'm not putting your ma whoever, the, the person who's not aligned with CRAFT.
I'm not putting their them down at all. I'm just recognizing that what we have been doing has not been working and I don't want to stay in insanity. And I want you to know that you can come to me. You can trust me. I am trying a new way. Helping motivate you to live a healthier, more fulfilled life that maybe your father is not on board with yet letting you're letting your child know, because [00:51:00] listen, they pick up on things.
If we're fighting, if we're parents and we're fighting about it behind closed doors, they're going to know teenagers like they know. So may as well just say, I know you've heard me and your father fight. I just want you to know that it's because we have different beliefs on how we want to address you about certain topics.
I'm coming from a more compassionate, loving evidence-based approach. Your father's not, and I can't control him just like I can't control you. But what I can do is try and use what I've learned to influence positive change in you and hopefully your father one day. Now, if a parent said that to me, I'd be like, okay, I wish dad would listen to you. You know, it gives a it, you know, and it's not necessarily, I hate to add for not listening to, but it's wow, mom, I see that you're trying so hard and it sucks. The dad's on the same page, you know, and it opens up a different type of relationship and conversation, which could be really helpful. I also think, you know, always dropping information to.
Your partner, who's not on board about how this is evidence-based and evidence has shown over and over again that this is what works and the evidence has shown over and over again, that shaming somebody into making a change doesn't work and scare tactics don't work. I mean, there was that old show or they'd bring kids to jail and the people in jail would scream at the kids.Make sure they never wind [00:52:30] up in jail, but that doesn't, that didn't work. So it's not on TV. I don't think it's on TV anymore. I had a course in grad school about that, about that community approach to getting people to not, you know, don't do drugs, don't do crime, it doesn't work. So I think sort of bringing them in and something that I always offer when I'm working with a parent.
I love when I get to, it's amazing when they're both on the same page, but when I get a parents. Recommend as the CRAFT therapist or CRAFT, you know peer support coach, whatever it may be saying, why don't you have your husband just join us? And he can ask me all the questions that he wants to ask.And it's independent of being with your kid. Who's struggling, but let's have a conversation about what CRAFT is, because maybe they're not understanding it coming from you. Maybe they need to hear it coming from a professional or somebody who knows it kind of like, you know, the amount of times, you know, a parent can tell you don't do this and then you hear it from a cool celebrity and then you listen to the select.
So it's just, you know, sometimes the person who's relaying the information. Can I have an impact? And at a certain point, if this person just will not get on the same page at all, we have to rise above it and sort of cultivate a mindset of acceptance and understand that they will never get there. So instead of fighting against it, just accepting it [00:54:00] and avoiding the suffering that can come along with just like doing everything we can.Shifting that focus and energy onto getting our loved one into treatment. Even if we were the one person
brenda: right.
Erica: it's hard though. It's really hard. When, when not everybody is on the same page about this,
brenda: Yeah. Getting mixed messages and mixed consequences. It's just, I noticed such a real struggle. So. I think your, your thoughts on just being as consistent as possible and as forthright as possible about what you're doing and then even checking in with them maybe, and just saying, Hey, you know, what's going through your mind when your dad and I, or your mom or, whoever your step-dad and I are on different pages. How, how does that feeling to you? Because that's, it's so confusing.
Erica: Yes. I love that because also just even, you know, as a therapist, daughter, having a parent say, how does that feel to you is so powerful.
brenda: Yeah.
Erica: really is just as a side note.
brenda: Yeah. And, and to be ready to accept what you hear, because you know, what you want to hear is, oh mom, you're so awesome. You're doing so great. And you're probably not going to hear that. You're probably gonna hear you guys , you know, whatever from them, but letting them voice it. It seems like it would be really valuable.
Erica: Absolutely.
brenda: That's so [00:55:30] much. Well, I think we covered a lot. Of course, there's more, but We might have to do part three.
Erica: We can do it. We can do quarterly podcast,
brenda: I'll just keep collecting all the questions before then. if you have time. Yes. If you have time for one last one, what would it be? The part of CRAFT that. you see? Families struggle with the most. Is, is there something where you'd say, you. know, this is the thing that comes up time and time again. That's really difficult for people.
Erica: I would say managing our own fears and worries as a, as it relates to relapse, that's like once our loved ones in treatment. To do, to give an example of something that you know, doesn't fall under something we've already talked about.
The removal of rewards in natural consequences can sometimes be very challenging for people because it involves communicating in a way that may not be so positive using positive communication to communicate something that isn't positive. Like I'm removing this. Because your home way past purview and you're drunk and you're high and all this stuff that can be really hard.
But it's really important. And I, I, you know, even thinking about that communication, getting started. Is the hardest part for most people. Once you see that you can communicate and use the communication skills, [00:57:00] which is usually the hardest can be the hardest thing for a lot of people. It's obvious. It's hard to say because you know, no one size fits all,
brenda: Right.
Erica: to shift the way you engage in communication around this topic with your loved one after years of communicating in a certain way and changing it completely can seem so terrible.
So scary once you start doing it, all the other stuff seems more tangible. All the other, like sort of CRAFT skills seem doable because you've tackled the one that is the foundation for all of the others. So, you know, when it comes to even the communication one, I usually am when somebody just won't have the conversation, I usually pose the question.
which situation would be worse saying something and using this and hearing something in response or never saying anything at all. And usually that gets the person to say, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to do the communication. But yeah, I'd say like the communication can be the most tricky, cause it's the, one of the first things that's taught and it's so different from the way that we've been acting.
Um, And then using that communication in all different scenarios, right. And the rewards and the consequences and the removal of the rewards. So, yeah, communication is like the foundation of all of [00:58:30] this. And I started off with a few answers, but I'm landing on communication
But they see the greatest results once they start implementing positive communication.
brenda: Yeah.
Erica: It's the hardest yet yields the most immediate stunning results for people,
brenda: it it truly does. And I've seen that. And I think part of the reason why it is so hard is because it requires you to be really mindful and you have to be present with yourself to catch yourself from saying the thing that you've said for the last five years or the last 15 years. And do something different.
And so it is that muscle that you have to retrain to like literally catch your mouth when it's starting to open and go. Is that what I really want to say? Or is there some, is there a different way to say that? So, awesome. Well, Thank you. We'll have to get the next one scheduled for next quarter.
Erica: Totally.
brenda: The questions are so real and so helpful. So I, I very much appreciate you jumping on and doing this with me.
Erica: Anytime. Brenna, thank you for having me.
Brenda
Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to go to the show notes, you can always find those at At Brendazane.com/podcast, each episode is listed there with a full transcript, all of the resources that we mentioned, as well as a place to leave comments if you'd like to do that. You might also want to download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight: Three things I wish I knew when my son was addicted to drugs. It's full of the information I wish I would have known when my son was struggling with his addiction. You can grab that at Brendazane.com/hindsight. Thanks again for listening and I will meet you right back here next week.