for the dads: your presence, experience, and actions matter when your child is misusing drugs or alcohol, with Andy Goldstrom
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
Guest: Andy Goldstrom, Parent’s Journey Coaching and Wilderness Therapy and Residential Treatment podcast
The Stream Community: a positive, health-focused online space for moms of kids experimenting with or addicted to drugs or alcohol
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episode transcript:
SPEAKERS
Brenda Zane, Andy Goldstrom
Brenda 01:33
Welcome, and wow, season three, when I look back to January of 2020, I had this idea to start a podcast, I had absolutely no idea what I was doing or what I was getting myself into. So to be starting the third year of this project is so incredible for me to think about. I really had no idea that this would reach people in over 50 Different countries now 1000s of cities. And just so that you really understand that you're not alone. Every week, there are over 600 downloads of these episodes. So that means there are 599 at least other parents out there in shoes that are similar to yours, not exact, but they are going through very similar things. They're also like you doing the hard work and trying their very best to help their kids. If you're thinking hey, it would be kind of cool to meet some of these other people.
Brenda 02:42
And if you're a mom, or a mum, you can meet these moms in a private community online. It's called the stream. It is not a Facebook group. And it has a positive health focus space, where we shift the focus from your child and what they're doing to you and what you're doing. So we work on getting and keeping you healthy so that you can be the best mom for your son or daughter. Our members call it their safe space to connect their safety net, a life-saving space. So you get the idea of what goes on. You can join us and come to some of our events. We have live support calls. We do yoga together, we have a book club, all things that help you take better care of yourself right now. You can watch a short video and get more information at www.thestreamcommunity.com.
Brenda 03:38
We are kicking off the year with an episode this probably about two years overdue. And it is for the dads. I know many of you listening are moms. But dads are so important in this whole equation when our kids are struggling. And even if you're not together, maybe you are separated. Maybe you're divorced, they are also going through a really hard time. They are trying to figure out their role and how to navigate this as a man. So to bring us that perspective. I invited Andy gold strung to sit down and chat with me. And I thought Andy was a great person for this because he has been through the dark places with his daughter. He and his wife made the choice to have her attend wilderness therapy and residential treatment. And because of that experience, he is now a parent coach and host of a podcast called Wilderness Therapy and residential treatment Journey podcast and he shares so much important information in this conversation. So please pass it along to the male counterpart in your life or in your friends lives. I think they will really be able to relate. Again, welcome to season three of Hope stream. I am beyond honored to have you here with me on this adventure. I look forward to another year with you And now let's jump into this conversation with Andy Goldstrom.
Brenda 05:09
Andy, welcome to Hopestream. I'm excited to have you here today to get your perspective on all things challenging kids, wilderness, substance use mental health, all the things. So welcome to the podcast.
Andy 05:25
Great to be here, Brenda, and I don't think we'll be able to cover all that in an hour. It'll be fun.
Brenda 05:31
I know, we would have to spend a week or so. But luckily, you have a podcast where people can hear more about your experience and more about the things that you cover in your coaching. So I'll direct people there in the show notes. But today, it would be so great to hear from you. Because I obviously am a mom, I don't have the Dad's experience with, you know, having a kiddo go through really big challenges. And I imagine it's different. And so I just thought, what a great opportunity to get that perspective from you. So maybe you can start us off with a bit about kind of take us on a little bit of a story, from your family's perspective, what was going on with your family to get you to where you are today?
Andy 06:21
Sure. Well, first, thanks for having me on your show. Help is helpful and educational and impactful. And it's always good for me to be able to share and help educate it's kind of cathartic, as well as right. Yeah. And the one thing I would suggest is there, there are a lot of differences from my point of view between the moms and the dads, but there's more in common than there is not. And so it'll be interesting to kind of explore that a little bit. But right. But my background was simple in that I was a business person for a long time. I grew up in the New York area, in southern Connecticut, started my career before I met my wife. When we started growing our careers and having kids in the mid-90s. We moved for an opportunity down to the southeast, and we've been in Atlanta since the mid-90s. And we agreed that at the time, my wife had a law background, but she wanted to be a mom and be home with the kids. And my career was doing well. And so she spent more time with the kids and I spent more time in the office or on the road. And that seemed to work well for us for sure.
Andy 07:34
We were able to balance it and we had a good understanding of things. But what happened with my younger daughter, Audrey, who is the focus of our discussion, is she in her teenage years started spiraling a little bit. It ended up that when she was younger, she was the cute effervescent kid she has curly red hair, she never met a stranger loved life. But what happened when she was a teenager was some kids started surpassing her academically and emotionally. And we recognized that and got her tested. And they ended up that she had a very low memory retention issue. She had a low processing speed and things went in one ear and out the other. So she couldn't retain things very well. And so what happened was she started getting anxious, she started getting depressed, she wasn't the same kid.
Andy 08:29
And so what did we do as parents, we cared about our kids being happy and independent. And so we got her an IEP in school, we got her tutors, we went to a psychiatrist and got her appropriate medication. We had her visiting a therapist week by week. And those were things that, you know, were kind of patchwork that were a little bit of a bandaid. And ultimately, she continued to get worse, she started hanging out with the wrong crowd and doing things that we didn't think were very safe for her.
Andy 09:02
You know, and ultimately, we were fortunate before it was too late that we found out about the wilderness therapy and the residential treatment opportunities for her to get help. While we needed to get help ourselves as parents, it's not just a one-way street. It's a family dynamic. So it was quite a journey. I mean, I ended up staying home more by choice. Once I got my career, well progressed and sold the company. And based upon my daughter's our family's journey, frankly, I got involved in this ecosystem a lot more because I felt that was kind of a lonely place, and a lot of important big financial decisions that needed to be made on a timely basis where you didn't know where to turn. And so we'll talk about it more but I got involved. I created a podcast, to help put a voice for people to be able who were entering this ecosystem and struggling with their kid to be able to listen in feel connected and educated and be able to take action or reach out. And I also got inspired to become a parent coach. And so I've been doing that as well, I got certified. And I have a roster of clients that I really enjoy helping. And you know, one thing in common is I do work with a lot of dads
Brenda 10:21
love that - there are not enough men in this field of helping families. And so I would love to talk about that, we'll get into that a little bit more. But if you go back to when you first started noticing these changes in your daughter, and yeah, it sounds like you are traveling a lot working a lot. Your wife is at home, how were those conversations happening? Or how were you processing that? Because I also was in a position where I was traveling a lot, you're back and forth, and you're busy. And I'm just curious to know, like what those conversations were like with your wife when she was noticing maybe things that were happening while you were gone? What was that dynamic? Like in your family?
Andy 11:09
Sure. Is this about how men and women kind of process things differently?
Brenda 11:15
Yeah, or just or just kind of in your own family? How that, how that played out? Because it is so different when you've got somebody who is really focused on career and not that you're not focused on your family. But it sounds like you guys had a pretty good system, worked out where you were, you know, doing your things. And then you have this little crisis brewing. And I'm just wondering how that played out.
Andy 11:42
Sure. So you know, it was stressful, because we didn't know what we didn't know. We were trying to figure things out. We hadn't, you know, been aware of kids who were struggling in this way. And, you know, we were first-time parents encountering this. So, but we had some differences. My wife, from the day she was born always wanted to be a mom, I remember the day I met her. We were both in our late 20s. And she you know, that was just some of the first things she talked about, in terms of, you know, things that she thought she was born to be and what she really desired. As a result of that you could imagine she's, if you've heard her on our podcast, or met her she's a really good nurturer and a good listener. And a really good person way nicer than I am. She's. But as a result of that, and maybe it's partly because she's a woman, she's emotional, and has written the roller coaster based upon many of our children's successes or challenges that either because I wasn't around for as much or because I'm wired a little bit differently.
Andy 12:54
Because I mean, because partly because I'm a guy, I just couldn't ride the roller coaster in the same way, not as emotional a person. So and for me, I'm different than my wife, I wanted to be a pro baseball player, when I was a kid loved everything about baseball, I still do. And when that didn't transpire, I wanted to be just a good business person. And I wanted to be a dad in some way at some point, but it wasn't the same priority. And so as Audrey grew up, my wife Laurie was the primary parent. And I was working long hours and growing that business. And when she started struggling, Lori was torn emotionally, and I treated it like a business problem. So she wanted to rescue Audrey, and I wanted her to face more adversity. And neither was right. Because we weren't aligned and our solutions were quite polarizing.
Andy 13:47
And so when she was away at wilderness therapy in residential treatment, that's when we first Lori and I first truly reconciled and aligned our parenting in a way that really worked for all of us. And so are kind of coming back to your question. Our conversations were hard, you know, sometimes you go through this cycle where you want to try and figure things out and quit and quit, and you have this situation. And that leads to some emotion and fear and doubt, and then blame, you know, and you want to, you want to be able to get out of that cycle, to be able to address solutions where you can and so, you know, all it was was what was working and what wasn't working, and what could we do when what can we test and how could we change things? And, you know, we weren't coming up with a lot of good answers, unfortunately. So it was some of it was out of ignorance. And some of it was out of just neither of us fully understanding the depths of Audrey's challenges.
Brenda 14:47
Yeah, I think you said it so well. You don't know what you don't know. And there's kind of this whole world that you end up getting into where you start to learn you're like, oh, wow, I didn't know that. But you don't know what you don't know. And so I think your description of Laurie coming at it from a much more empathic, emotional kind of standpoint, you may be coming at it from a more pragmatic standpoint of like, well, like, let's solve this problem. And as we know, because we've been down the road, and we're working deeper into it, this isn't a problem that we can solve as a parent, we can help move our kids to solve their problem.
Brenda 15:28
But I imagine that that's fairly true. And of course, there's always, you know, everybody is unique. So it's not that every woman handles it this way, you know, every mom handles it in that empathic, emotional way, in a nurturing way. And all dads approach it from a solving standpoint, however, and I'd be curious to know what you found in your coaching. I do see that, that certainly happened in our family, it was a little bit more like, well, this is just a phase, it's fine. I did the same thing. You know, I smoked a lot of weed when I was in high school, from my husband's standpoint. So do you see that in your coaching, too? Do you see that this is sort of a common thread? Or does it vary a lot?
Andy 16:11
I think it's common, I certainly think, you know, without being too generic, about the difference between men and women, because that's not fair. There are a lot of women that I work with, who are very driven, who are very attuned to their child who are less emotional. Some of them are single parents. And so they have to wear both hats. And some of them, you know, some of them are, frankly, in a situation where they're working women trying to work with their husbands or partners, or, or what have you do to actually have a career and, and, and a family.
Andy 16:45
And so I'd say, by and large, I suggested I'd see more of than less, I'm working with a couple of clients right now who, you know, certainly are aligned that way, and are really focused on solving their kids problems and trying to save them, and trying to influence them, based upon their value systems, because they are more experienced and smarter and can lead, you know, their children in the right way. And what they're failing to do is give their kids a voice, and hear their kids. And so a lot of what, when I work with a lot of males, it's about, you know, giving some air and being more attuned to your children. And we can talk about that a little bit more as we go further.
Brenda 17:34
Yeah, for sure. It would be so interesting. Do you see stumbling blocks that you dealt with, that your clients that you work with, are also dealing with? I'm going to be curious to know, besides sort of your different approaches, were there things now when you look back, that you and your wife really struggled with that you think are worth calling out to people who might be listening to this in the thick of it, where you can say, here are a couple of kind of big roadblocks that we hit.
Andy 18:08
Well, other than not knowing what we didn't know, the biggest thing was, as parents, we weren't aligned nor attuned. And she was doing some things that were inappropriate and unsafe at times. And we just thought that she was being a bad kid. She was not listening to her parents, not being appropriate at times, putting others at risk at times, depending upon her behavior. And ultimately, what we didn't realize where she wasn't trying to be a bad kid. She was just trying to cope. This was her way of reaching out to the world of trying to figure out what was right, what was wrong, how to survive, much less prosper. And we didn't understand it that way.
Andy 18:50
So what do we do as parents, we were nervous, we were frustrated, we restricted her more, we locked down on her more because we were concerned about her safety. And, you know, not just her feeling of being supported and safe and in control. And so it didn't work. She just wanted all repeated again. She just wanted to feel supported, safe and in control. And so what happens is, I call this the cycle of disconnection, and that it's a vicious cycle, in that you don't understand your kid your kids trying to learn and cope. You react inappropriately. And then it's a vicious cycle with different actions and activities that continue until it spirals out of control.
Andy 19:39
That's the biggest stumbling block is just understanding your kid if you listen to season one, episode four of our podcast called The Wilderness Therapy, and residential treatment Journey podcast. season one episode four is an interview of my daughter. It's the most downloaded episode. And it basically says, I wasn't trying to be a bad kid. She said this to my wife who interviewed or I wasn't trying to be a bad kid. And I wish I was understood more like I am now. So, you know, this isn't a bad story, necessarily. We all evolved. That's why I call it parents journey. My daughter's evolved. But that was the biggest stumbling block.
Brenda 20:24
That's huge. Wow, that's great. So season one, episode four, be sure to if you're listening, go listen to that, because I think that would be incredibly impactful to hear from her voice on that. So you're going through this? Did you feel like you had resources because what I hear from men, more so than from women and moms, is that they just don't feel like there's a place to reach out and get that support? Or they don't feel like if they do that it's the guy thing to do. So do you think that we have a culture that just makes it harder for men? Or is that something that we construct ourselves? What are your thoughts on that?
Andy 21:03
Yeah, I think we all know that being a tough guy is a male trait that society typically embraces, you know, guys who are weak or not, not as tough in their approach or strong. For sure, I think we all know that somebody who doesn't appear as strong or talk as loudly doesn't mean that they're not tough or that they don't have strength, but that's not the voice society looks at, at men at times. And so seeing that in social media and the way we're brought up, there's a J curve, in which we kind of see how our grandparents grew up and how our parents grew up and, and how we grew up. And we're kind of influenced by that by by male roles in the family, and what we see outside, and it makes it hard for most men to be honest about themselves and their parenting. And more importantly, it prevents them from being vulnerable.
Andy 21:58
And so that's what prevents parents from often being on the same page, and certainly was for me and my wife. And as a male parent coach, I help break down these barriers and make it safe and productive for men to engage. And I work with both single parents and with couples. And frequently, the female parent will initiate not a surprise. And then the male parent joins in and learns it's okay and important for their family harmony, and then they're part of the journey.
Brenda 22:25
Right? I love what you said about the vulnerability aspect. Because I find that to that, until people get to the point where they're okay asking for help, whether that's a mom, or a dad, or a partner, or an ex-partner, or spouse, until you're comfortable with that, it really can prevent you also from finding help for your child. Because if you're saying, oh, you know, he just needs to shape up, or she just needs to get her act together, or whatever it is, we can put off seeking formal treatment, you know, like a wilderness therapy or residential treatment, which just puts our kids at risk even longer. So that's great to hear that that's really something that you work on with the people that you work with is getting to that vulnerability, that it's okay. And this is such a scary thing. Like this is really scary when your child is abusing substances are really struggling with their mental health. It is very scary. And so being able to say, and raise your hand and say, I am scared out of my mind, I don't know what to do, I don't know what's going on. That's a great place to get to, because that then allows you to move forward from there. And like you said, to get to that place where you can be productive about it and not just swirl in the emotional, craziness and unknown. So to have had a guide like you somebody to come alongside and say, Dude, I get it. Like this is really hard and confusing, is so valuable.
Andy 24:03
The thing that I think helps me working with men and you know, and with women, but it's just I've had a daughter who's had mental illness and some substance abuse. So I understand that I can empathize with that. I've gotten parent coaching and really benefited from that my wife and I would not have aligned or been prepared for my daughter to come home. If not, we had to do our work to and then I got certified as parent coach, and then I'm a guy. So all of those things kind of play into it. And I know that we all have Waze or Google Maps on our smartphones now, but you know, the thing about men not asking for directions, because they, you know, they think they can figure it out, you know, and then having to put their tail between their legs and asked for directions and half hour later when they couldn't find where they were going. It's not a dissimilar story when it comes to this. It's let's deny it. Let's put it off The kid will figure it out, you know, let them go through some more adversity on their own. And I think the important thing is, is, you know, there are places to reach out for help before it's too late. And the sooner you talk to people, the sooner you can, you know, put a plan together one way or another.
Brenda 25:17
Right. And if you do reach out, it's not a sign of weakness, or a sign of, like you failed as a parent, this is something that at least what I found, in my experiences, it gets to a point where it is beyond your parenting skill level, it is not like, Oh, if you only knew this, you could fix your kid, it gets to a point where you really have to pull in professionals who have PhDs, and their medical doctors are second, you know, all of the scaffolding that we have to put around our kids, right? And, and that's not a failure as a parent. And so for dads who might really feel that pressure of like, I've got to keep my family together, I've got to solve this, there could be a lot of tension there of like, how do I reach out? Who do I reach out to? And what does it say about me if I reach out for help? Right?
Andy 26:13
Well, I think in the business world, if you, you know, don't have the expertise or the capacity to address certain issues, what do you do you hire a consultant, right, and they come in and they do their work. The thing that's easier about that is it's less emotional, number one. And number two, is it's easier to measure the results, did you get the project done, they just saved the money did you deliver what you delivered, you know, when when you're working with a parent coach, you know, or you're working relating to your family dynamics, you know, the results or the way that you all feel about each other, and the way you interact with the world and the way that you can leverage your strengths to move forward. And you can always measure that, right, you know, the only way to measure that is to, frankly, each week, revealing with parents how their prior week went, and how they were able to test some of the things that we agreed that they would try and implement with their child or with the world around them that week to see if if it worked for them at the time based upon what they were going through. So you measure it based upon how they felt about their interactions and success.
Brenda 27:22
Yeah, and that's such a subjective thing. And it's probably a measuring stick that most parents aren't used to using, because like you said, you could bring in a consultant, you can see the ROI, like it's black and white, and is it's just not black and white.
Andy 27:40
But the way I look at it is, you know, I don't charge very much compared to business consulting, but people sometimes are stretched them, you know, they've lost their job, they are paying for other things for their child. You know, they have other priorities. And, you know, the what I tell them is, for the cost of engaging with me over a period of weeks, how can you put a price tag on your family, having harmony, you know, in your family being able to work together and, and being able to connect? And when you put it in those kinds of terms? You know, the ROI is a lot easier to measure for sure.
Brenda 28:19
Absolutely. And right now, I think well, I don't think I know the dangers that are out there as far as fentanyl so if if you have a child who's involved with substance use, you really don't have time to sit and wait and see how this is gonna play out. And I'm sure you have clients who are dealing with that, where even if you think Well, I think they're just smoking some pot, and maybe they're drinking here and there. The likelihood is that they're probably also experimenting with pills or other things. And you don't have the luxury of time. Not that you ever deal with mental health or substance use but even more importantly today, with fentanyl in the market you don't and so engaging with someone like you sooner than later could make literally a life and death difference.
Andy 29:09
Being proactive is so important. I've interviewed people and spoken with people and researched and engage with people who are involved in the substance use arena. And there are situations where you can predict your child is going to experiment with drugs or get involved in alcohol based upon their behavior but more importantly based upon family genes and what's happened with the family in the past. For example, if the parents who have used any alcohol you know on a routine basis or you know have gotten a or what would consist of alcoholism in any way, shape or form. If a child has a taste of alcohol before they turn 18 their chances of becoming alcoholic are like multiplicative. And it's the same thing with drugs. So you know when they get To hold the fentanyl it's not just because there were no drugs in the family or nobody's ever had drugs or nobody's seen it before. It's because this is the, you know, latest and not so greatest thing that children are getting their hands on that, you know, really can do some devastating things.
Brenda 30:19
Absolutely. So we wandered a little over here, which is amazing. If we could just go back. So Audrey's struggling, you decide on wilderness therapy, which I know that and we'll have people listen to your podcast, because I know you talk about that story. So she is now in wilderness therapy, you and your wife are at home, what's going on,
Andy 30:45
we had a lot of emotions, we were struggling a bit. But backing up when Audrey first left the home, we were at a breaking point, and she was at a breaking point. So we you know, we had to make that choice, we felt it was the right choice at the time. And when she was, you know, we had her transported there because it was the safe thing to do. I know there's a lot of talk about that area of wilderness therapy, but it was the right choice for us. And it was the safe thing to do within 24 hours of her being away. All of a sudden, she was smiling for the first time in months. And it was because all these things were kind of lifted off her shoulders to allow her to reset, because that's what wilderness therapy is. It's really a reset button. And so that provided us a sense of like, we made the right decision at the right time. But at the same time, we had a lot of grief. We grieve because she wasn't a happy or independent kid. And that was what we thought we were trying to raise, we had regret. I wasn't present enough, my wife, you know, may have rescued my daughter a little too much. I realized that tough love doesn't always work. So we had regrets. And then we were sad, you know, we were sad about the entire situation. And so, you know, we went through a lot of mixed emotions.
Andy 32:05
But thank God for the parent coaching. Because there was some blaming going on, you know, I felt like if they had gone through more adversity, that they'd be more resilient. And my wife was, you know, my wife was like, hey, you know, I was here alone, I did everything I could to help them in the way that I thought was right. And she was right. And, you know, ultimately, we had to get on the same page and realize we were where we were what we were going to do to kind of move forward, forgive each other, get aligned. And so, you know, when she was in treatment, we actually get the grief, regret and sadness turned to hope. We hope that she would have the opportunity to prosper as long as she put in the work. And as long as we did our work as well. And one of the things that was most telling was after she finished wilderness therapy, and my wife met her to transport her to residential treatment.
Andy 33:03
She told my wife at a restaurant somewhere in Oregon, I feel really lucky. And my wife said, You do I and my daughter said, because I've had the opportunity to learn some skills and tools about coping and about, you know, learning how to deal with adversity that some people who don't have my issue is and even those who do never have the opportunity to learn. And so I kind of feel lucky that at my age, you know, just turning 18, I had the opportunity to actually learn some of those things. And she carries that with her today. So that was a pretty insightful thing that I thought, and certainly gave us hope that we were doing the right thing, and that she was invested in her successes we were
Brenda 33:43
what a great thing to hear. Because I know the fear and the questioning that goes on when you I now instead of saying that I sent my son to wilderness, I say that I gave him the gift of wilderness, because I truly believe that that is and it sounds like from what Audrey was saying that that is true. It takes a while to get there. It's not that they're gonna, that they're going to feel like that's a gift overnight. But I do believe that that is a gift that we give them. It's not always the right gift for everybody, right? Like you. I think one important thing that I want to highlight is that you wrapped her with every local resource that you could before you made this decision.
Brenda 34:23
And so I think sometimes that gets overlooked when we talk about wilderness therapy as it sounds like Oh, my kid was doing these crazy things and we shipped them off to the woods. And it's really not that you had an IEP a tutor, you had medication, you had therapy like you had done all of the things that you could do locally to keep her at home, and those weren't working. So when you after you had done all those things in your thinking about wilderness therapy, what were your feelings as a dad having your daughter go to live in the woods and I don't know what program she went to but often they're under a blue tarp. There's not even a tent. What does that feel like to a dad to know that your little girl is going to be going off to do that? Well,
Andy 35:08
we made a choice because we were sending we were in crisis around chronic our Christmas time in 2017. And we were intending to give her the gift, as you say, of wilderness treatment. I say sending away for help, at times as opposed to sending our way to get fixed yes for sending her way to write because it was we got help while she was getting help. But what we realized is she was born in Georgia, and his always had always liked the summer, more than the winter. And so even though there are programs that are outside in the winter weather, we thought, probably not the best choice for her, just because we wanted to work on her emotional well being more than her physical stress. And so we actually chose to send her to Pacific West in Hawaii. Okay, right. So it's more of a horticultural program. They don't go hiking all over the place, they're focused on a campus that is very barren. You know, they sleep on cots, and basically a shack, they cook their own food, they learn how to grow plants, they learn how to live off the land.
Andy 36:24
So it's an outdoor experience where they're iMesh in and involved in the horticultural experience is part of their therapy. And so, you know, I felt really good about it. Actually, for a child who didn't like the outdoors, when we had the opportunity to visit with her. It was raining like crazy. It wasn't cold, it was like 75 degrees, but it was it rained a lot. And my wife and I were like, Let's get inside, it's raining. It's raining like crazy. Why would anybody want to be outside like this, and my daughter was like, I'm used to it. You know, there's, there's a tarp here for us to hang out, under, let's just stay outside. This is the way life here. So it showed that she had learned some resilience and adapted to what was out there. Certainly, you know, if your child is camping in, you know, outside in colder weather, they're well taken care of, but it's a different environment for sure. For which for my daughter, in particular, might have had a, you know, a little bit more concerned.
Andy 37:26
But in general, the idea is still the same, it's trying to take them away from their environment, and provide, you know, a real bubble for them to get some good therapy to reset. That's why that's chosen. It's not because it's just great for people to be outside to get back in touch with nature, or, you know, we're trying to torture them or discipline them. It's not that at all, it's focused on resetting and getting the kids to kind of have the opportunity to kind of learn again,
Brenda 37:58
yeah, that's great to hear for anybody who's listening. And if you're considering wilderness therapy, there are so many different kinds of programs. So I'm glad that you mentioned that.
Andy 38:08
I'm not an educational consultant. Right, right. There are many that are out there who are terrific, who really get to know the programs and get to know the individual therapists and counselors, and that's really a really important part is to really know that with your kids therapist will be and, you know, these Educational Consultants can really help you.
Brenda 38:30
Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that, because there are so many different types of programs, and also different therapists. And I know for my son, our consultant actually picked the therapist over the program, so that she probably would have picked him as a therapist, no matter what program he would have been in. So I think that's a good distinction to make. Because if you're not working with a consultant, you really don't know how you're aligning your particular kids issues with that help that they're going to be getting. So I'm glad that you mentioned that.
Andy 39:02
And I knew that my daughter has to have a really good connection and somebody she can trust me, it's not somebody she can just take direction from, you know, it's somebody that she feels like, understands her. And so, you know, we were looking for that person who was more empathetic, more patient, and had a track record. And literally, we spoke to not just the, you know, the leadership who made the recommendation, having gotten to know us, but actually talked to a couple parents who were working with that therapist to make sure it was a good fit, right. And so it wasn't lucking out. It was actually doing the work,
Brenda 39:41
doing a lot of work and really doing your homework taking the time. And I know that can be a struggle, because you don't always have a lot of time. Like you said you were in crisis. We were also in crisis. We had to make that decision very quickly. That you do need to be able to spend the time to make those calls and to really align with your kid.
Andy 40:03
And you mentioned wilderness therapy and residential treatment or therapeutic boarding schools, they really are a last resort, it's not the thing that if your child struggling at all, that there aren't other options to pursue or ways to, to do it. And frankly, you know, if we had gotten parent coaching, when we were earlier in our parenting struggles, things might not have cratered the way they did. It doesn't mean you know, it wouldn't have solved my daughter's processing issues. But it was certainly would have given us a better understanding about how to deal with her, and work with her and understand her and support her in a different way that would have made it a little easier for all of us, you know, going through that?
Brenda 40:49
Yes, that's a great point that not only do you need to look for those local resources for your child, but also for yourself getting that coaching, how did you find resources? Because, or maybe your wife was doing more of that. But I find that, you know, people find someone like you or they find someone like me, and they're like, oh, my gosh, I didn't even know this existed. How did you and your wife kind of uncovered the various resources that you did?
Andy 41:19
Yeah. Well, we had the same experience. Who did, frankly, Dr. Google? Yeah, well, what happened was, we had a great pediatrician. And she knew of some families who had children who ended up in wilderness therapy or, and so she basically said, when we got to that point, and we're struggling, that she can ask a couple of those parents to call us to discuss it, obviously, she couldn't, because they have a compliance, couldn't give their names out. But when a couple people called us, and we actually knew one of them, didn't know their circumstance, it opened our eyes in terms of you know, what it was all about, then it was a, you know, frankly, given where we were given, given the depths of where we were, given that we knew she was going to be 18 in a few months, and, and have the opportunity to make some of her own decisions, even if she didn't have the wherewithal to do it.
Andy 42:17
We were in a race to get to the right decision quickly, right. So there weren't a lot of resources. It's about the people, Google's great, and there are some great websites, but they tend to be they tend to tell you what you want to hear you don't get to ask the tough questions unless you peel back the onion quite a little bit more in what you're researching to find out. And that's part of why, you know, we created that wilderness therapy and residential treatment during the podcast is that, you know, there are programs that talk about what makes them different and who they're the right fit for and who they're not the right fit for him, whether they're accredited or not, or whether you know, how long they've been around and what it costs and what it takes to get in and all the rest. So
Brenda 43:00
How amazing would it have been when you kind of rewind in your mind to have found your podcast to say, oh, my gosh, like somebody could have walked me through and answered all of these questions. So thank you for putting that out there. Because it is hard for parents to find the information. And it's hard to say that you need the information. So I think the fact that you've put that out there for people to just consume at their pace at in their timing is just so powerful.
Andy 43:31
Yeah, they can do it alone. Nobody knows they have to be listening to it. Right? They can do it when they want. And there's so many things that I learned, for instance, most parents basically, try to find a solution. And then they give the gift of sending their child away. And then they go, Oh, my god, how am I gonna pay for that? You know, that's the right thing to do. Because when you're in crisis, you want to you care about your kids safety, care about getting them help. But, you know, I had no idea of the steps I could have taken to have gotten better insurance coverage. And we have a couple of podcasts that are relating to what you need to do. There's a podcast about the stigma of transportation, there's what you need to look for, for a parent coach. And there are other things really, you know, this isn't all about wilderness therapy and residential treatment journey. You know, there are a lot of things.
Andy 44:25
This whole thing we talked about was relating to a lot of myths about men and dealing with men, but a lot of it is is whether you're sending for giving the gift of try and use that or not. It needs to understand how kids feel stressed too. And so sometimes your child could be stressed and men don't always pick up on things like their child's misbehaving more than usual. They may be more quiet than usual. They have school problems such as fighting or not paying attention, they're having trouble sleeping, or they wearing concern about family issues. And so children need help to deal with the stress they feel. And both men and woman, especially men need to be able to talk with children. In words, she can understand that I'm using the word CI, but it could be a he, it could be a day, they need to let their child know that she doesn't need to worry about adult problems such as money. And be clear that some problems are hers, not to worry about. They need to be able to teach their child to relax when she's feeling stressed. And they need to give words to their child's feelings. This is a really important one, sometimes children don't know they're stressed. So you can feel it. You can sense it, you can say, I heard you had another troubling incident in school today. I'm wondering if you're worried about your grandmother's illness, you know, what, what's driving it, you can kind of uncover why, why the behavior and why the stress that might not just be related to somebody said something nasty to me.
Andy 45:54
And so I got in a fight out, you know, she might have been carrying other stress with her. Listen, when your child talks about her concerns, give full attention and listening for what she's feeling. And then you know, the thing that's always important to spend time with your child, you know, do something fun. And this will help reduce stress as well as yours. And one of the things that's really interesting is I'll talk to dads. And they'll say, Yeah, we spent some time together, we went to the racecar track over the weekend together. And I'm like, is that something that your daughter or your son likes to do it? Is that something you'd like to Oh, I like to do it. So I took them along with me? Well, what about doing something that they like to do? Right thing, you know, and pay attention to them and provide them the things that they want to do.
Andy 46:45
And so the light bulb goes on, but it's not common for men, they're like, you know, I like to do what I like to do. And I don't have the attention span for some of these kids stuff, or some of these other things. And, you know, some of the best times I had where, you know, I'm not the most creative type. Now, if my daughter likes to go to a painting class, and I'll join her to go to a painting class, and I'll just, you know, I'm not going to get the stimulation out of it, the creative stimulation out of it that she would, but I get the satisfaction of knowing that we're together and she's having a great time. Yeah, it makes a difference makes a huge difference.
Brenda 47:19
Wow. Well, if, if a dad is listening right now, and he's in your shoes for five years ago, what would you tell them?
Andy 47:30
I would say a couple of things. One is children want control and want to be supported and understood. And they actually like boundaries as it makes them safe. The problem is when you instill a punishment or consequence, that isn't a natural consequence, where they didn't know what the rules were. And so just understand that children are not you know, when they act out, they're not trying to be bad, bad kids, they're, they're trying to feel safe and supported and have some sense of control themselves. And when they don't feel that that's when sometimes they do some, some things that are, you know, you wouldn't approve. And, you know, if I was giving advice to my former self, in terms of what's most important, it's aligning with your wife or partner, being attuned to your children and getting a parent coach are really keys to success proactively in your family.
Brenda 48:24
Right? It is one of those proactive things that you can do so, well, I'll put everything in the show notes. But where can people find you if they're like, I need to talk to me.
Andy 48:35
Sure. And I thought I'd just share that my relationship with my daughter's very positive, cope better. She's learned to cope a lot better with her emotions, and I learned how to be more tuned her feelings and needs. And, you know, it's not to say that there aren't road bumps. But you know, the best thing that happened to her was she had a job interview, after she came home from residential treatment, and basically was pretty honest about the adversity that she went through in the road that she was on and that she was far more attuned and able to cope with some of the stresses in her life. And the hiring manager was very smart. And basically said, You're the type of person we want. We don't want somebody who's had a, you know, a spoon fed life, who's never had a hardship, and has never overcome anything. You could teach us a lot. That's a magazine. And so that that meant a lot to me and to her. And so to answer your question, I've got two websites once a resource page that deals with a podcast and that's just www.parentsjourney.net. Okay. And then if you want to find out about my coaching practice, it is WWW.parentsjourneycoaching.net. So just add the coaching to the other part.
Brenda 49:55
Great. That's awesome. And thank you for giving us this perspective. I'm sure there's going to be a lot of my listeners who tend to be more female that are going to be forwarding this on to their male counterparts. So thank you for that.
Andy 50:09
Thanks so much for having me and it was a great discussion.
Brenda
Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to go to the show notes, you can always find those at At Brendazane.com/podcast, each episode is listed there with a full transcript, all of the resources that we mentioned, as well as a place to leave comments if you'd like to do that. You might also want to download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight: Three things I wish I knew when my son was addicted to drugs. It's full of the information I wish I would have known when my son was struggling with his addiction. You can grab that at Brendazane.com/hindsight. Thanks again for listening and I will meet you right back here next week.