hope for weary parents; from living in a park to helping re-build lives, with Mark Pepper
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
The Stream Community: a modern, digital respite (not on Facebook) for moms of kids experimenting with or addicted to drugs or alcohol, in treatment, or early recovery
Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here
Guest: Mark Pepper, LMHC
Show Resources:
Persevere Now: Persevere is a national non-profit organization whose mission is to empower justice-involved men and women and individuals at risk for justice involvement to succeed as productive members of society. We do this by helping them develop the skills they need to be employable within the technology industry, either as employees or entrepreneurs and helping them find jobs in the field. Our goal is to change lives through education, mentoring, and ongoing support.
SPEAKERS
Brenda Zane, Mark Pepper
Episode topics: parenting, teens, mental health, substance use, addiction, recovery, sobriety
Show Transcript:
Brenda 01:45
Hello, welcome to today's episode, I hope you're well I am glad that you're here, I'm glad that you are doing the work, learning, supporting yourself all the things we have to do when we have a kiddo who is struggling, whether that is your 15-year-old, or your 25-year-old. And I am really excited for you to hear the conversation I had for the show today, especially if you're in that older kid crowd. So if you have a son or daughter in their 20s, maybe in their 30s, who are active in addiction, really struggling, your family is really fractured because of this. This is your episode. Now, if you also have a 15-year-old or a 17-year-old or 23 year old, still going to be incredibly helpful for you. But I wanted to get somebody on who could give some hope and some perspective and some thoughts to those of you who have older kids who are still struggling, I think it's going to give really great an incredible perspective from someone who has been on both sides of the addiction table so to say.
Brenda 03:00
I met Mark Pepper, and I immediately knew I had to get him on Hopestream - just one of those people where you're like, yep, you're coming on the show. Mark is living in long-term recovery. And he works for a very cool organization called persevere now, which helps justice involve people in recovery to develop the skills they need to be employable within the technology industry. However, we didn’t talk about any of that, so I'm going to put a link to the organization Persevere Now in the show notes, because we just got so wrapped up in a deep conversation about kids about addiction and families. And so we didn't talk anything about what he does for a living. So you're gonna want to go to the show notes if you want to learn more about persevere now. It is real, it is raw. It's incredibly helpful, and it's so, so powerful. I am really grateful to be able to share with you now this conversation with Mark. Welcome mark to Hope's stream. I'm thrilled to have met you and get to know you a little bit and really looking forward to this conversation today. And I know that you're a busy guy, you work in a treatment program. So lots of people need your time. So I appreciate you carving some out for me. And being here today.
Mark 04:25
Of course, thank you for having me, Brenda. It's nice to be here.
Brenda 04:28
Yeah. What I thought we might do, I usually ask my guests to introduce themselves and just give us some background. And knowing that you are somebody in long-term recovery, I thought maybe we would just hop in a time machine. And let's just rewind 20 years and introduce Mark Pepper to us from 20 years ago.
Mark 04:51
Well, I let's go back like 20 and a half because the Millennium happened. Well, maybe 21 and a half but I went to my treatment center, just after the millennium. And I had been to several treatment centers and had tried to get and stay sober for probably 10 years actively. And towards the end of 1999, into the beginning of 2000, I was homeless, like literally living at a city that's well known for its drug addiction and alcoholism. And I lived in a car at that for a couple of months during the transition into this into the 20th century, 21st century here. And so I was about to go, I was encouraged to go to detox and I went to a detox center and looked at the people sleeping on the floor, they had a mattress, it was a county-funded detox, and they were people sleeping on the floor, and kind of writing out there withdrawals. And I just didn't feel like I was as bad as those people I was really judgmental. And was certain on the kind of detox and I didn't, but I was I was encouraged at that time to go to treatment. And I was, it was also a county-funded treatment.
Mark 06:11
And I had been to some fancy treatment centers and had not stayed sober and really wanted to. But I didn't have a career, I didn't have a job I didn't have my family was kind of uncertain about my whereabouts, didn't have really any meaningful relationships. And they, they had a requirement of that treatment center that you needed to be five days sober, they did not want me to detox at that facility. And so I remember having the thought that if I could be sober for five days, I would not need treat treatment that I would be okay, then I would not be, I wouldn't really need to go to rehab if I could do five whole days. And I've you know, learned a lot since then. And I actually learned a lot before then, that I've come to see has been helpful. But that point 20 or so years ago, I couldn't conjure up any of that information. I was just kind of wracked with addiction, and horrible self-pity and depression and suicidal thoughts for years, sort of passive suicidal thoughts that it would just be better not to be here. And that I would just sort of Hope I wouldn't wake up. And so that's kind of a sad picture of that story.
Brenda 07:29
So that's a very real story. It's a good, I think, grounding place for this conversation, to understand where somebody can go to, and where somebody can, can come back from.
Mark 07:48
Right. Can I add one thing? Yeah. So my family, I come from an upper-middle-class family, pretty well-to-do lived in nice homes. And I have two sisters. That were both by the time I got sober quite a bit earlier than that both had at least master's degrees. And well educated, we had lots of opportunities to have nice, full meaningful lives were apparently were raised in the same household because I turned out them to you know, the end of my using is about that where that story is. And they just had a different story. And they went a different route. And I'm reminded how individualized and how the household you're raised in doesn't have a whole lot to do with the outcome of a drug addict or an alcoholic. Right. And I just think that might be important to say, in this discussion in this conversation, because it's items, I'm certain my parents did not want me to end up being a drug addict or an alcoholic. And I'm certain I didn't want to end up like that. That's the way it goes sometimes.
Brenda 08:57
Right? I'm glad that you said that. Because I think parents do spend a lot of time racking their brains. Where did I go wrong? What bad decision Did I make? We put it on ourselves, which, first of all, I think gives maybe an inflated sense of our own ability. Right? Even though that's even though it's a bad thing, you know, that we could somehow cause this and it sounds like you had you know, a pretty great family, all the opportunities and you went one way and your sisters went the other way.
Mark 09:31
Right? With all this, we all have the same opportunities and the same exposure to alcohol, and drugs and people and influences and all of that. And so I just think that's important information to have. For families. It was important for me to have as I was getting sober too. Like I I just think that's important.
Brenda 09:52
So if we get back in the Time Machine, we fast forward to today and you're to introduce yourself. I'm pretty sure you're still not living in a park, you're recording this somewhere,
Mark 10:07
although I wouldn't mind like living in a national park and camping and hanging out outside, different,
Brenda 10:13
different way of living in a park. So introduce the Mark Pepper of today and what you're doing and what your life looks like today. Well,
Mark 10:23
thank you i, this guy's a little easier to sort of talk about, because that makes me sad to think that I'm really the same human being that's had a real transformation. So live in Salt Lake City, I'm 57 years old. I've been sober now. 18 years, no drugs, no alcohol. I have two children. I have adopted my daughter probably 14 years ago. And she is 26. And quite an amazing child. My son is 18. He was born two months after I got sober. So he's never seen me drink alcohol or use drugs. And he's headed to Santa Barbara for college in the fall. I'm married to a woman I've just been crazy about my whole life, and have a lovely healthy marriage. I've gone to finish grad school sober and went back and got a master's degree.
Mark 11:25
I'm a clinical director of a couple of treatment centers in the Salt Lake area, I work for a nonprofit company that a friend of mine started helping prisoners learn a marketable skill and then transitioned out of lockup into the real world working with them in family reunification, emotional wellness recovery, most of the meaningful work I do is around recovery, where I feel like I have a strong influence and a strong ability to be helpful. And I don't know if I always am helpful. But I turns out that by me helping other people, it helps me I don't really think about drinking or using I don't recognize the guy I just talked about, really my whole life has transformed. And it didn't take 18 years to get to this place. you know, it was my father passed away about seven months ago. And I just I know, this is a lot of parents on here. And my dad got the best years of me for sure. For about 18 years, and I was present is when he passed. And I've kind of come to celebrate his life and his passing and his putting up with me and my addiction. Just had an amazing relationship with my dad as a sober man and did not have that with him as an active user. Because I can't couldn't and so that yeah, that feels really special. Yeah, that's worth sharing. I mean, that relation, all of my family relationships repaired. And they were all very badly damaged.
Brenda 12:57
Yeah, I can imagine that doesn't sound like things were in a good place. And could you if somebody had told you 20 years ago, or 20 and a half years ago, what life could be like today? What would you have said to them?
Mark 13:13
I would have said maybe for you. But that's just not a possibility. For a guy like me. I would say even early sobriety, if I could have imagined this nice of a life. I don't even think I could have imagined it. And I mean nice in a way of my level of serenity. My you know, I don't feel depression, I don't feel sad very often, even with the passing of my dad, it's mostly really been this increased acceptance of the world just the way it is. I wouldn't have believed any of that. And it's, I mean, it's just the way it is. It's been a lot of work too. I do a lot of recovery work. I really love working on myself and being a better man and want to be the best dad and husband and worker and neighbor and community member and helper that I can be and my experiences that just takes a lot of ongoing work, right? It's not a one and done. Nope. Right. That's just not been my version. Anyway, it's it's ongoing work. And I love it.
Brenda 14:12
Well, knowing that this is parents who are listening who are you know, struggling at some level with a child or also guardians and grandparents, they always want to know, sort of what were the factors that led up to you if you know this really turning towards using substances as a coping mechanism, and what that kind of did in your family.
Mark 14:38
So what led to my using substances. It's interesting to identify that because my sister's had the same experiences and did not turn to that so I'm not sure it's really a valid reason but in my brain so I didn't say this and I doubt it may be relevant or not, but I'm adopted into this family and both of my sisters are the biological children of of our parents. And I'm the middle boy in the middle of two girls that were bio kids of my parents. So I always knew I was adopted. They didn't spring it on me at some advanced age. And so I think I made up some stories about being an adopted kid that probably wasn't really wanted by his mom. And I don't know where that comes from. But I think I, as a young boy, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, I had this belief of someone must not have wanted me. I've talked a bit about my dad and the family I grew up in my mom, I didn't quite connect with her the same way I found at 12 or 13, pretty young. I mean, there was always alcohol in my house. My parents had an alcohol cabinet that stayed full, like they didn't drain their liquor. I don't know that I really ever have seen anyone in my family drunk to this day.
Mark 15:50
I just didn't really like who I was. I hadn't really poor self esteem. Which is interesting, as my family was quite loving. And I don't know if it's the adoption, I don't know. It's kind of a chunky kid. I don't know if it was that. But I the first time I drank alcohol, other than like a sip at my grandparents or something. I really loved the effect that it produced. I finally felt calm. My family felt at peace and sort of a feeling I've been ordered to therapy is like a kindergartner. first grader. I was a pretty rambunctious kid. I don't think ADHD was a diagnosis in the mid 60s or late 60s. And so I was just sort of this troubled kid I was I'm really bright. Well, I was, I think I've killed some of those cells. But I, I was really quick in school, you know, and I don't know what it says that you're bright in first grade. But I was like, I finished schoolwork early. And then I goofed around. When I found alcohol, and then marijuana. I didn't feel all that I felt calm. I felt like I could sit still, I felt like I could be with myself. So I don't know if that answers that. But I I don't think it was a series of events, although I did during my alcoholism, blame, some stuff that had happened. That I've also come to see that may not have even happened that way. But I was convinced of a lot of things before I got sober that I've been wrong about. And I think knowing that has been helpful in my recovery to that there's probably still some things today that I am certain about that I probably wrong about. Right. So
Brenda 17:29
the perception of things shifts as you come in and out of having a clear brain I would imagine.
Mark 17:36
Right? And, and understanding that my brain, even today, like I just perceive it my way. I don't I don't know if the same people in the room see the same thing?
Brenda 17:46
Yeah. So you're young, you discover alcohol, marijuana, which is so common, it's probably the most common combination of every listening is nodding their head like Yep, check, check. So how does it go from there to being homeless living in a park? Because that's a big job. Right. And I bet drummers have this fear when they do have a 15, 16, 17 year old who is actively in chronically using alcohol and marijuana and dabbling in some other stuff. Of course, their brain goes to that's going to be my kid living in the park,
Mark 18:27
for sure. For sure, and I lived at a park at 39. And in between those 26 years, or 20. You know, there's 24 years in there that were filled with a marriage. And a lot of good times I my dad offered me his business as a career, I did get a bachelor's degree like I functioned pretty well until I turned about 30. And I do have good news for parents, about nine to 10% of human beings turn out to be alcoholics and drug addicts. And that's of people that experiment and use drugs and alcohol, okay? that not everyone that uses turns out to suffer from the disease, right? And this is a the American Medical Association tells me it's a disease. And I, I've just checked in my medical license is not current. So I don't get to override any medical opinions.
Brenda 19:23
You're certainly not talking to a doctor here. So
Mark 19:26
okay, right. So I and doctors acknowledge that and I am a therapist. I'm a licensed clinical mental health counselor and we recognize in the diagnostic manual we use to diagnose every mental health disorder, that addiction and alcoholism to specific drugs addiction are recognized as mental health disorders like these are brain disorders. So the jump from sampling and trying, I will say it like 15 my toward the end of my 15 You're I found cocaine. I didn't just find some but I got asked me to try some and i i can joke about it now I only used once, but it was for 25 years, I've heard that before about cocaine and alcohol were really my, my loves, which is interesting because it's an upper and a downer, a burn a downer. And I would joke like I'm trying to get back to the place I was before I started. I'm trying to balance this out. But I never lied to where I was, before I started that I kind of needed these things. And again, looking back, it's easier to sort of autopsy my using career of just horrible self-esteem, with very little evidence around me that my self-esteem would be bad.
Mark 20:47
You know, I am in a fraternity in college and don't feel like I fit in. Although I think those guys thought I fit in. I didn't feel like I fit in in high school. And I bet the people around me were like, yeah, you're fine. So my 30s were much darker. We're kind of when the slide happened from my first marriage living in a beautiful home. It was my dad had offered me his business, I had fancy cars, and then you know, the big life on the outside. And it was really sad on the inside. And really, he was probably the most suicidally depressed I've been. And then it just slid down from there, and it went from treatment centers, to hospital stays to treatment centers to, you know, sort of worse and worse dwelling, couch-surfing or you know, renting for a week or a month or two, finally, just saying I could probably just stay in my car. And, you know, I mean, that's a nine or 10 years if none of this happened quickly, right? Right. The constant was drug and alcohol use, and really depressing to, I think that I've come to see that I probably had an addiction to my depression and self-pity. That was just as strong and just as harmful as my addiction to drugs and alcohol. Even as a clinical man, like, I think a lot of alcoholics and addicts are addicted to that sort of pity and that blame and that poor me. And if you only understood, and it's really debilitating,
Brenda 22:15
right, and I think from the outside, it's easy just to see, especially from a parent's point of view, it's easy just to see what's on the surface that, oh, he's drinking again, oh, she's taking these pills, or whatever it is. And what you're not seeing are the 27 layers of the onion belly beneath the surface.
Mark 22:35
Right. And I don't know that the alcoholic or your kid is seeing that either. I don't know, I think the drugs skew our ability to peel that onion away properly. And sequentially, I think we go to the depth of like this, my life sucks. Or some, you know, some story. So everyone's confused. The kid is confused the parents for sure. I mean, I just might I do spend a lot of my professional career counseling parents and really feel that I wish there was a remedy. I wish there was an answer. I always like just tell me what to do. And I'm like, Well, what do you want to do would be my response to that? And you know, from kicking people out to not I don't there's not an answer.
Brenda 23:23
Right? It's so that is I think the most infuriating, frustrating thing that parents face is there is not a solution. There's it's not like cancer, where it's like, okay, we have these chemo treatments, and then you can do radiation. And it's so unique. And I'm just wondering because I hear that trait, a lot of low self-esteem, not feeling like you fit in this feeling of as soon as I use the substance, I just felt like I was normal. Like, oh, this is how I'm supposed to feel. And so I think that's those are some really, really common things.
Brenda 24:09
What do you think, from a parent's standpoint, if they're seeing this in their, their kids? Are there ways to talk to them about these things that could be helpful because what I hear a lot and what I experienced in my with my son is just a huge amount of combativeness of him not wanting to talk like you don't understand any thoughts from your experience and talking with parents and having lived through it. What could be helpful?
Mark 24:38
Yeah, that's a great question. And it's, again, there's not an answer to that. But I do think one of the things I would suggest to anybody, a loved one have parent a partner, any of that would be say whatever you want to say. Nothing you say. Nothing anyone ever said to me, got me drunk or high. I thought it did. But it didn't just like nothing you can say will really get them sober, unfortunate. I mean, I think it's sort of a double edged sword. Right? That is my counsel would always be to take care of yourself and make sure to a parent would be to say what's important to say? I would say anytime you're arguing with an alcoholic or drug addict, like you're arguing with an insane person, right, and I'm sure family, people are nodding their head like it's, it's crazy making. And I know, my family was like, I think I'm losing my mind. Like you're making me crazy. And I can see that now. And so one of the benefits, I would say now to my fan was like, Don't argue with anyone that's drunk or high or drinking or using, like, rice, it doesn't take that overtime, just and again, easier said than done, because the behavior is so horrible to watch. But there's no argument. They are correct. You don't understand them? Thank goodness, you don't understand? Like, they don't understand them.
Mark 26:01
I think it's really, how does one and this has been a lot of years of doing this as like, how does a parent take care of themselves? Right? And the answer I hear the most is like, Well, part of that is that I take care of my kids that I'm a parent. And I relate to that perfectly right? Like, that makes me feel good. Being a parent, it's part of my self-care, it's part of my self-esteem. Saying that out loud is kind of, like, I'm more aware that I can't depend on my kids to make me okay. And I want to, and I have, and I probably still do. And that's not their responsibility. And it's also not really my job, which, you know, I think we're getting to some stuff here about like, how, then what, right, if it's, and our job is to protect and love our kids. I mean, I don't whatever it is, for every parent, but and this is just hard, like it's and I encourage families, like, look back when you were kids, Could your parents have told you what to do? And you know, rarely Is it like, Yeah, I just kind of obeyed my parents when I was 17. I could. And I'm not suggesting that everyone's behavior was what we're dealing with on this talk. But people are going to do whatever they want to do include get sober.
Mark 27:19
And so I would say to family members, please take care of yourself, like what is in your self-care routine? What do you do every day are you and I would say being part of this community is great self-care. Like you found a group of understanding people that are going through the same things and you know, Brenda, you're finding people to come and support that and talk and, and hopefully just support families being where they are. Right? And can we understand that no one really wanted to be right here, right now, no one wanted to be at this place where your kid is off the rails and out of control. And my discussions with families are very frank, we talked about the possibility of burying children, we talked about the possibility of losing relationships and lives, and it is so painful, I get emotional talking about it. Because I've lost lots of friends and who have lost lots of kids. It's unimaginable. And I know there are people listening that have lost children, and it's unimaginable. And I would never suppose to know what that pains like. And we have to talk about it.
Brenda 28:32
I think you're so right. And it gets the tendency is to try and kind of skirt around that possibility. But I think you can't, obviously, because this is a life-threatening disease. And if we were a group of parents with kids who had cancer, that would not be an off-the-table conversation that would be part of this conversation. And so it is incredibly painful to talk about and scary. But I think it also can help because what it says to me, and I hope to other parents is, this is not the time to bury your head in the sand. This is not the time to look the other way and hope everything's gonna be okay. We have, you know, fentanyl in the market that is taking kids who are not addicted in any way. They're just experimenting. And so, you know, it is incredibly hard to have that conversation and say those words, but I think it can do some real good and getting people getting the conversation started in family.
Mark 29:43
I'd also like to encourage having with the user. Yeah, like I don't, I don't know, there's no, I hear a lot of walking on eggshells around kids that are drinking and using our loved ones. And I understand that my family reported that too. Like we anything we Say you're just going to go off. And anything they didn't say I was going to go off, right? Like I did, right? It's, it's just a powder keg waiting to explode anytime anything's brought up. Which reminds me to just bring up what you need to say, parents love to like, we want to let my kids know that I'm concerned that they're going to die. Yeah. And I hear a lot from parents that are say, I wish I would have said that I wish I would have again, I can't imagine the pain, which is just exaggerated by the wishing you would have said something.
Brenda 30:38
Do you think it matters how that is said because we talk a lot in our community in the stream about one of the benefits of good self-care is that you can have those conversations with a calm demeanor with, you know, a sense of presence, and you're not screaming and frazzled and hysterical. So do you from your vantage point is that helpful to if I'm going to say to my son or daughter, I am terrified that you are going to die. Doesn't matter the way that is communicated?
Mark 31:17
I would sort of agree with your community, like more love, more compassion, like the stuff we feel naturally for our kids like saying it with love and written not anger. And although I do think like if you're angry, and I will, I hope you are, I mean, stuff is angering. We can bring a sense of that too. Like, I'm like, I can't believe I'm having this effing discussion with my son, or my daughter. Like I'm, I'm writing obituaries in my head, I'm planning a funeral. They're going to hear it with whatever filter they've got going with their drugs and alcohol and their anger and their rebellion and their self-pity. And their, you know, adolescence anyway. And there. I just think love always wins the day. And love can be coupled with anger just beautifully. Yeah, at the right time. And I think that I do think it's hard to peg kids down for a time. Like, there's some stuff I want to talk about, can we have five minutes? I can just imagine a lot of rolled eyes and like whatever they are, or you don't understand what it but I do think there are ways to set that up where it's like, I just there's some stuff that's important for me to say, and I'm wondering if we could have five minutes and they don't, you know, I mean, kids tell their parents to eff off with that stuff.
Mark 32:36
Or I do think it's helpful to say it not with anger. And I think that some anger is called for I don't know if that makes sense. I mean, I think screaming and yelling it when it's back and forth. And you said and you're doing this like that, no one's really hearing a message the guards are up the walls are up the spears are out or trying to jab or trying to hurt or trying to get a message. I do think talking about trying to understand where they're at. When they say you don't understand me or you don't get like, Can you help me see where you're at? I come your mom, or Dad, I want to, you know, I do think that tender stuff is beautiful. And it will disarm the anger and the disease a little bit. If they're used to hearing from you angry, right? try a different a little tenderness is going to disarm and be like, well, that's, I could probably talk to this grown-up.
Brenda 33:29
I love how you just said Help me, help me to see help me to understand because I've heard that too. And my son said that you don't understand. And like you said, You're I'm glad that you don't understand. But for a parent to be able to have the empathy and the vulnerability to say, well then help me to the best of your ability helped me understand not so that I can fix you. But just so that I can at least have some context for where you are.
Mark 34:00
Yes. Which sort of feels like it turns up the compassion a little bit.
Brenda 34:05
Yeah, it does. Because I mean, that's what I would want somebody to say to me if I'm having, you know, unrelated to substance use. If I'm struggling with something, I don't want somebody to come in and tell me how to fix it. I'm just going to roll my eyes and I'm going to say oh brother.
Mark 34:24
I just want somebody to say oh my gosh, that must be so hard. Tell me about it. Right. And I one of the values are really like the Help me thing for kids like and I'd say to my kids, you know with other things like I need your help here for a second. You might give me a hand and they think they're gonna have to fix the garage or you know, some like, I'm really trying to understand why you're not showing up on time for curfew or whatever it is right like, but they feel useful, they feel helpful. They're gonna help their mom or dad out even if they're pissed at yet, because we all like to be helpful including your defiant children. Yeah, like I think asked man, can you give me a hand here? I'm really trying to see this, some through your eyes, or I want to understand this differently. And I just don't. I'm wondering if you could help me here. And that builds connection that builds sort of compassion of like, an eye, you know, I can imagine some responses. Right? For sure of like, yeah, go after yourself that right or I mean, because these kids are angry, right? They're on drugs.
Brenda 35:29
But at least you've asked
Mark 35:32
you've tried, you've asked, we've done it a certain way. And I would say, say the word you want to say, any way. Please don't wish you had said something that you didn't get to say. And I mean, I am certain about this, that nothing anybody says, can make another person drink or use drugs. And I say that as a sober guy. There is nothing anybody can say to me to get me to drink. And I'm as alcoholic as these kids are. Right? You don't need years of sobriety to understand that there's nothing that could get me to drink. Just like there was no real human, like nothing my parents could have done could have gotten me sober. Although it did help when everyone was kind of done with my act. Yeah. And I was 39. It was kind of old. But my dad, like him changing the locks. I'm calling the police. If you come over and my dad adored me, like he loves me so much,
Brenda 36:28
whoa, Okay, is this is an area where we need to dive in. Because this is leading to the boundaries conversation being that parents would never want to do. And again, this is going to be very, very different if you have a 17-year-old 16 year old versus a 25-year-old, right. So age appropriateness. But I think what you just said maybe you can say it again, is that we don't get our kids sober.
Mark 36:58
We we don't, although I do think there are a series of actions that can help. And I hate to say this, because I think what it did for me was it got me to a bottom. Yeah, more internally and more sort of intellectually, like, I can't really play my dad anymore. Right? I can't get any more money out of him or a place to stay. My kids mom had left. The same day, like the last day I used, I had heard from my dad. And she had left with her belly, seven months pregnant. And her little girl, my little daughter, and I knew my sisters were kind of up with my game, my mom had told me to kind of scram 20 years ago, I mean, she never put up with it. None of them got me sober. But I think that sort of that combination of events, when I knew my, all the cards were at zero, like I, I didn't have another card to play. I was, I didn't have a work I didn't. So I do think the boundary though, is for any parent, whatever you're willing to live with, with a 25-year-old with an adult, if you're willing to let them drink and do drugs in your home. And I'm not being smug about that, like, that's my wife, son, who's now sober about 15 months, was living in her house, drinking. And she's like, I'm, I'm not kicking him out. Mike, there you go. She's like, I know what you're gonna say, as a professional. I'm like, that is not what I would say, as a professional. I would say how do you as a parent sleep best at night? Not just with the do they stay or go, but with all of the boundaries you set? With money, with your time with the vehicles with family time, like, it would be so lovely. If there was a manual? I wish there were one when I was talking about this stuff. But I would say to anybody, like how do we live? And how do the parents in this, I see this struggle of staying unified as parents, right? Whether you're married or not? Yep. How do we stay unified, where mom's not the bad guy or dad's not the bad that we are both unified and we love you, and you can't do that here? Or you can, we'd rather you be in our basement than on the street. There is not a right answer to that there is a look in the mirror and a really uncomfortable deep, hard look at yourself of your values. Right, and nobody can judge that. I mean, they will I think people will and it doesn't, like, at the end of the day, I don't want to judge it as doing the wrong thing.
Brenda 39:31
Right.
Mark 39:32
And I think those are the boundaries that are so hard that are how do I tell like when my the love my dad must-have for me to tell me that he's not going to let me come to his house anymore. And I mean, I don't want to stress this too much. But 30 like I'm a grown man that has no ability to live as an adult. Right? And he's like, You're, you're I'm calling the police. If you come to my house, just like I was so angry, and so offended, and it was so helpful. And it was so beautiful for him to care about himself that much, because he just let me kind of walk all over him unwittingly. And I've manipulated and lied and, you know, did would drag out of what we do to get loaded, right? But I think when the scorecards are when they run out of options, where they know they can't manipulate you anymore, whatever that is, even if it's like, just stay in the basement, you can't come upstairs, or you can't I mean, I don't want to make up rules for families, but whatever they are, those are the rules.
Brenda 40:36
and what I hear are the two, the two things that get in the way of that is one, they're gonna think I don't love them. And so I think you just answered that. And that your dad, you knew that your dad loved you beyond. And you knew even when he said you can't come here anymore that he loved you.
Mark 41:02
I don't know that that day. I knew that. But I'd also say I would rather make my kid angry than put them in the ground. Yeah, I would rather pick my kid off. And this isn't for everybody. I don't think this is the answer, either. It's an answer. I would rather wake their wake them up a little bit with like, at least during I can deal with their anger. Yeah. Then barium or I wish I would have said something I don't. And because when you're talking to alcoholics and drug addicts, particularly young ones, you're going to offend them no matter what you say. I love you offends them. They're like, well, you don't know you don't. There's just no winning. So stop trying to you know, and I think when I know I can't win. I don't fight anymore. Yeah, I don't get in the ring. I don't argue with active users or drinkers. Period. I don't I don't talk to people that are drunk. Right. And I, they want to talk to me. Yes, they do. Oh, no, I'm done. I love you. Call me when you're sober. Yes. hard things? I don't I'm not I don't really I know, it's easy to say this. sitting in an office on a podcast, right? I mean, but this is real. I think this is real, like, do what you feel best, but please do it. Please say it. Please do not left things on set leave things unsaid. I do think that's the thing I hear the most of like we should have. End should have and wishing is just like the most painful exercise, which is so sad to do that stuff.
Brenda 42:49
The other thing that in, you just said it too, is you know, I'd rather piss my kid off, then put them in a grave. And I think where a lot of parents are is, I feel like I'm probably going to put them in a grave. Either way, if I kick them out, and I say I cut them off. And that's it. They could die. And if I leave them here, and I allow them to live in the basement or whatever your scenario is, they also could die and I say yes and yes.
Brenda 43:19
So what are you more able to live with? What allows you to sleep at night? What allows you to have a life? Because either way, I mean, they could they could be completely sober and walk across the street get hit by a bus. So you know, it's kind of a weird analogy, but it's like, yes, you could kick them out, cut them off, and they could overdose and die. And how many kids wake up in their don't wake up in their 16 year old bedroom? I should say? Because they've overdosed. Right. So I don't think that whether they're living in the home or out of the home, is the determination of whether they're going to live or not.
Mark 44:01
Correct. And, and I do you know, I think this goes back to the beginning of our discussion and the middle of it and right now is self care for the parents. What do you do to take care of yourself? I hear a lot like people feel guilty going on vacations or having a good time or doing stuff while their kid is suffering. I'm like, you got to do stuff for you. You have to it's again, easy to say over here. But that would be my my counsel to anyone would be like what are you doing to take care of you? separate from what's going on with your kids? And it's hard. That's just a hard thing to even say out loud.
Brenda 44:44
It sounds like something in a pamphlet from a hospital
Mark 44:44
right and it's and it's really my experience like professionally personally relationally like, I got to go for a hike. I got to go to yoga. I have to keep breathing. I have to eat well. I have to go Extra, you know, I can't, I can't not do that. Right?
Brenda 45:03
I hear you. It is hard stuff, it is hard stuff because it almost it well, first of all, it feels counterintuitive, especially for moms, because it's like it goes against your DNA to do anything when you have a child who's hurting. And so I just always tried to say it is part of, if you can't do it for yourself, do it for them, because it is part of their treatment program, for you to be healthier. So that's one way to look at it. And then also, just because you do know that if if there does come the time, when your kid is like, you know, I do want to have that conversation, or I am willing to give you those five minutes. What state of mind Do you want to be in? For those five minutes that you? You know,
Mark 45:50
And all those moments that you don't get that when you're still left by yourself, right? And your other kids and your spouse, and your parents, and your sisters and your brothers, right? I mean by yourself in your head, you know, with all those people, but it's beautiful. Yeah, please, please take care of yourselves. And it is. And I want to just say, as a father, it's counterintuitive for fathers to like, my DNA is to take care of my kids and make sure they're safe. And I have not done that. Because I it's not really my role. I mean, I my kids have gone through some horrible stuff. And it's, despite all of my protection, and all of my love and all of my wisdom and advice. So that tongue in cheek, right, but for sure, my love and my compassion. Like they, it's they're having their own experiences, and it is beautiful and painful to watch.
Brenda 46:47
Yes, it is part of being a parent is just that that jumble of all of the emotions. What do you love most about what you do today?
Mark 46:57
Oh, you know, it's this is perfect for this podcast, because the greatest thing in my recovery and in my work is watching family relationships, repair. Like I think of my sister who introduced Brend and me to each other. And my other sister who I adore, and neither of whom really spoke with me when I got sober and my mom and dad, my mom's still around, and my dad just passed an extended family just repairing relationships, and then I get to see it happen professionally. with people I really care about. I really love alcoholics and drug addicts. And I'm kind of joked that I loved him when I was using and drinking. And I love them sober because I think there's just this such an ability, there's, there's something so special about your lovely addicts and alcoholics, there's just something lovely about us. And watching family relationships repair from as badly damaged as they are, is, without a doubt the greatest gift of what I do today and just watching it. I don't I may have a small role in that if but I think just observing that.
Mark 48:04
And watching kids come back to alcoholic parents and parents trust alcoholic kids. Like there's just there's like a man, it's, it's a feeling it's Yeah, and I think that's the gift of right that's, that goes like the guy from the park to this guy like that's the transformation that takes place. And in families where they no one in my family is concerned that I'm going to drink or take any drugs. And there was a couple of decades where they were certain that was just what I was up to. And it just changes and it takes a minute, but it's really a treat and it's possible for any of your kids. It's I didn't get some magic lucky. You know a lottery ticket that said I get out if he does nothing. It's like work and willingness and diligence and discipline. And the stuff your kids already have a ton of like I saw alcoholics are resilient and disciplined and hard workers in the wrong direction sometimes. But you know, this energy properly directed is crazy. Powerful. Yeah.
Brenda 49:17
Yes. We talk about that often in our community. We say man, if we could just get all of our kids together, they would be billionaires because they're so brilliant
Mark 49:25
And that adds to the heartbreak of course.
Brenda 49:31
Right?
Mark 49:32
Yeah. But it's it's also the possibilities are beautiful. I really, I mean, this work is I believe that recovery can happen for anybody and I. I just know that I mean, I'm the least likely to be sober guy that I know.
Brenda 49:50
That is so encouraging. Thank you so much. I will point people in your direction. in the show notes, if you're listening and you want to connect with Mark, you can go there. And I just thank you 1000 times over for being here with us.
Mark 50:08
It was my honor and my privilege. Thank you all and don't give up.
Brenda 50:13
Don't give up on your kids. Don't give up. Don't give up.
Brenda 50:18
Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to go to the show notes, you can always find those at BrendaZane.com/podcast. Each episode is listed there. All of the resources that we mentioned, as well as a place to leave comments if you would like to do that. You might also want to download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight: Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted To Drugs. It's full of the information I wish I would have known when my son was struggling with his addiction. You can grab that at BrendaZane.com/hindsight. Thanks again for listening and I will meet you right back here next week.
If you’d like to receive my weekly email please go to www.brendazane.com/email and get on the list. I’ll meet you back here next week.