Uprooting Addiction, Healing From The Ground Up: a film that explores the connection between trauma and addiction, with Hope Payson and Daryl McGraw
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
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Guests: Hope Payson, LCSW, LADC, Daryl McGraw, President & Founder, Formerly, Inc. & Channah VanRegenmorter, Administrator, Eleanor Health Foundation
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Show Resources:
Uprooting Addiction: Healing From The Ground Up
Adverse Childhood Experiences information (CDC)
Film trailer can be seen here
Show Transcript:
Speakers: Brenda Zane, Hope Payson, Daryl McGraw, Channah VanRegenmorter
Brenda 02:46
Hello, friends. Thanks for being here today and for supporting this podcast and for making the effort to learn more about teens and young adults and substance use. It's a difficult topic. So if you're listening, I just want to recognize that and commend you for doing the hard work. I have a real treat for you today. I was fortunate enough to be invited to the screening of a new documentary that has just launched on Amazon Prime and Apple TV called Uprooting Addiction. It's different from other documentaries that I've seen on addiction because there aren't any horrific traumatizing scenes of overdoses or shooting up, which is really refreshing. The film features six people with really different cultural and socio-economic backgrounds. And it explores the childhood traumas that are at the root of their addiction.
Brenda 03:41
And if you're a parent who is questioning and wondering why your son or daughter is struggling with substance use, you are going to want to listen to this entire episode, you'll find so much of what my guests share to be insightful and might offer you a new perspective on what's happening in your family. You'll hear how the adverse childhood experiences study or what's called in the film the ACE's study. It analyzes the correlation between 10 types of childhood trauma and long-term health outcomes. And it reveals a causal relationship between the two. It is so, so fascinating. And it's really important to know about my guests our hope person who is a licensed clinical social worker and the co-producer of the film, Daryl McGraw who is one of the participants in the film, and Channah VanRegenmorter who is the volunteer administrator for Eleanor Health Foundation who is a supporter of the film. All of their contact information and the resources and details about the film and the ACE’s study will be in the show notes which are always at my website, BrendaZane.com/podcast. So now I want to let you listen in to this incredibly fascinating, and very, very important episode.
Brenda 05:09
Welcome to Hopestream Hope, Daryl, it is so fun to talk with you now after seeing the movie. Thanks for taking the time to be here and sharing your experiences with parents. And thanks, Channah, for your help in making this all happen. And for the work that you do with Eleanor Health Foundation to support the film. I appreciate all of you being here.
Hope 05:31
Thank you.
Daryl 05:32
Thank you for the invite.
Brenda 05:33
So I watched this film, when you were doing a screening, I believe it was in February, it could be wrong because time is a little bit of a blur, as we all know right now. But when I saw this film it was so impactful to me, because you're really talking about the roots of why people struggle with substances. And so it was just it's it's one of those things where I feel like we spend a lot of time talking about these symptoms and trying to fix the symptoms that are going on. And we spend less time talking about, well, why are we in this predicament in the first place. So that was my initial interest. And so I tracked you all down. And you're very kind to agree to talk with me today. So Hope, maybe we can start with you and introduce yourself and what your role was in the film and how you got involved in all of this.
Hope 06:32
Sure. So my name is Hope Payson, and I'm a clinical social worker, and an addiction counselor. And the film started as an idea, because fentanyl was really this is about four or five years ago, and we were talking about fentanyl a lot. And there was a lot of emphasis on the strength of the drug, and the access to the drug and maybe stopping access to the drug. And after being in the field for years, and also having some personal experiences with addiction and recovery. I felt like we were missing a great opportunity. And I felt like trying to control a substance really wasn't the answer, it would be better to look at why people want the substance. Because if people don't want it anymore, then everybody who's trying to sell it is going to go out of business rather than trying to control it. So it started with that idea.
Hope 07:24
I'd also been studying the adverse childhood experiences study and looking at the connection between pain, neglect, and trauma and vulnerability to addiction. I was really kind of blown away by the statistics. So it was this idea how can we show the general public because I knew that as a person in the field, I knew about the connection between trauma and addiction, but I didn't think it was translating well to the public. And how could we make a movie or something, some way of portraying this. And at first, it was just an idea to make a film clip for a conference presentation, and it kind of blew up. So I looked around and found a film producer who was willing to meet with me Tory Jadow and explain the idea and set up this retreat with a bunch of people in recovery, which is how I met Daryl McGraw. People volunteered their time and stories. And after a day of filming the retreat for something small, Tory said, I think this is a documentary. And so it kind of blew up from there and became a film to be used as a grassroots way of educating the general public.
Hope 08:36
But it became more than that. The film, people became like a family. We partnered with many communities and showing the film, I had lost a brother to untreated trauma and addiction. So it really helped heal something for me. And I didn't even realize until we were into the film how much that was a part of it for me as like a gift back to him and for other families like mine that were suffering. So that's kind of what happened is that I just, I sent out an email and said, does anybody know a filmmaker, and somebody did. And then she met with me. And then she went for the ride. And then I send another email out who wants to blow all their confidentiality, share all their trauma, with somebody you don't even know on film. And then Daryl says up at my door and 12 other people. It's been quite a journey, and it became a film, a documentary. I'm a social worker, like I don't know anything about filmmaking.
Brenda 09:37
This is not the direction you were thinking you would go.
Hope 09:40
No, I wasn't realizing it'd be writing grants and raising money, but Tory knew about the film world, and she was really open to the topic. And then Edie Schechter joined us as someone to help us with the business aspect of the film, which I had no idea what it would be like so, and here we are, we're about to be released. The film will be available on Apple TV and Amazon in four days. Y
Brenda 10:05
You're kidding, oh, that's awesome. I didn't even know, I was gonna ask you about the timing. Well get ready, get your pens out for autographs.
Hope 10:12
Because it's been a journey. And it's been a lot of learning and so many people's stories and trying to edit it down and be hopeful and helpful to families and people struggling.
Brenda 10:25
Oh, my gosh, yeah. And when I watched it, what struck me was and I almost didn't actually go to the screening, because being the mom of somebody who's been through this and so much, it's just so traumatic. I can get really triggered, you know, by watching these films. And so I almost didn't, and then I did. And what I really loved was, it wasn't all about watching people shoot up. And it wasn't this triggering scene, all these overdoses. And I'm wondering how you and why you decided to steer away from that direction, because that seems to be what we keep seeing over and over and over. And all these films and documentaries is kind of the really ugly, scary side of it.
Hope 11:10
Yeah, I mean, I think, for some reason, that is what gets publicized the most. But what I've seen in recovery is the incredible, transformational process of people getting better. We purposely did not show that we felt like that has been shown. And actually, I don't sure how productive it is. I think everybody who has any contact with the media knows what a problem we're having and understands addiction, that it's painful and awful and hard to look at. But we wanted to show the heart of it. These are human beings, these are our brothers and sisters, these are our children. These are our neighbors and friends, these are real people that we really like, and we care about them. And therefore we want to make treatment available to them. And we want to have compassion towards them. So we don't need to show the pain. Although the pain is in there, people talk about it. But we wanted to show the hope and the possibility of recovery. And we wanted to lead policymakers and people in the community to have enough compassion to change the treatment systems and make things available to families and people struggling.
Brenda 12:22
That's Yeah, that's amazing. I was just so amazed at how you, you really did tap into that compassion piece without showing all of the horrific scenes. So that was amazing. So Daryl, you hear that this is going on? And how did you think well, I'm just gonna put everything out on this film. I mean, did you have to think about it? or How did you approach it?
Daryl 12:51
Not really, Hope and I joke about this a lot. Some lady said she's making a film. And I was like what kind of film are you making, so I went over there. I was like interested to find out. Like she's making a film that will kind of like, we joke about it like here in our thing because like somebody puts out that they're making a movie. And you're like, you know, actually just like filming your trauma and talking about trauma. And I just kind of went on a whim but the conversation interests me. And to be truly honest, I don't think I knew what that I was impacted by trauma until we were in a room when we started really talking. And the more and more I got to know the more and more I understood how my trauma actually played a role in my life.
Daryl 13:36
Like I've been telling my story for years. But not really understanding that how the two were related. Not understanding like you know what happened to me at six years old with my father leaving our house which was a huge impact to me, how it affected my life going on. Like many times I've talked about the ripple effect and I'm talking about how things you know happen and as an adult and as we get older we realize that many things have correlation. But no one even told me how growing up and witnessing violence and seeing all these things happen to my community how not addressing it would play out later with me reaching out for a substance you know, not even talking about it impacting me just seeing it witnessing it moving through life but later on needing something to medicate to some you know, to feel better about like the I think a lot like about insecurities and things I felt like that.
Daryl 14:37
Not having a dad made me feel insecure, made me feel less than, right so I went like that for a long time. And you know, and I did other things that made me not feel good about myself made me feel less than. So I think that when when you know we meet other people who are ended up in the center of situations as myself, they if they really peel the onion back, you'll start to see the similar things that they felt they didn't feel or they felt less than they didn't feel, you know, they were hopeless. And I think that's what we were seeking and are just trying to numb that feeling. And then when you really get down to it, you really find out that trauma played a major role. And even when my friends who have mental health issues, they find out that it really stems from trauma more so than anything else, they when they really go back and start to look back. Right. Wow. You know, what it was that time that, you know, I was raped? And when I talked to parents, things happen to their children, either that they didn't know about, or they knew about but thought he didn't, you know, he never said anything. So we just literally moved on. Well, that was a major reason why he was using.
Brenda 15:59
Right? So you, so you had already been living in sobriety when this film happened? Is that right? Or is the timing right on that?
Daryl 16:11
Yeah, I've been living substance-free life now since May. 7 2007. And that was the last time that I was in the back of the police car.
Brenda 16:29
Bonus.
Daryl 16:31
You know, I got to say that because my story has criminal, you know, the criminal justice system played a major role through my active use, right, they basically went hand in hand. And when I removed the substance from my life, I kind of removed going to prison for my life as well. So that's a major thing for me. And when I got out of prison, there was only two things that I really wanted to do not use drugs, and stay out of jail, everything else is a bonus. And you know, I got to meet Hope. And I've done some amazing, accomplish some amazing things. And I've had some amazing opportunities, but really, for me, would have been as to not use drugs and stay out of prison. Unfortunately, I've been back to prison a million times now. Because I go in and speak and I
Brenda 17:21
you walk in and out
Daryl 17:23
Yeah, I did tell the guys I'll be back but it'll be through the front door.
Brenda 17:26
Yes, yes. I love that. Wow. So that's really interesting that I think it's so common that people are really struggling with substances. And they know that life hasn't necessarily been great, but they're not making that connection to the trauma. And I think you're right, what you said is, it could be something that it doesn't have to be as horrific as a rape or being you know, coming back from a war, there can be things, especially when you're talking about younger kids, and I would love to ask you more about your, what you talked about your dad when you were six, that to an adult to a parent might not seem like a trauma. And then the kids growing up, and they're hitting that 13, 14, 15 and starting to reach out for substances, and it's just not making sense. There's like there's not a connection going on in the mind of the parent. And you said like you hadn't even made the connection as a person who was struggling, that you know, and you talked in the film about growing up around violence and that things were kind of solved with violence. How do you think that really, if you had known at the time, a little bit more about this kind of this, the roots and the trauma? Do you think that would have made a difference?
Daryl 18:43
100% This is why we strongly talk about ACE's so heavily, right? If somebody knew about ACE's and all those adults, and professionals that I interacted with, even in a correctional facility, no one address the trauma, no one address, like the things that happen in our projects, were people being killed and blood on the wall. No one ever came and asked us, Hey, how are you doing with that? Even our parents didn't have we didn't do certain things that happen when anyone talks about it. So these things are happening, and no one was addressing it. We never addressed it. And even being a black person in this country, slavery. We've never healed from slavery, right? There's never been an opportunity to heal. So here's this trauma that's just growing and things are and then it's more and more happening, more stuff is happening. You go to prison, you get re-traumatized, you grow into a traumatized person, you're more trauma inside and then you're just back out into this world, and really not understanding how it really plays out.
Daryl 19:49
The other point is that how it affected me doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna affect everybody. My brother grew up in the same household that his experience, he didn't go to prison. And maybe his traumas acts out in a different way for him. I know, there are several people that we grew up with, a building where there were 110 families. So we all experienced that violence and stuff, but different people react to it showed up differently, you know, in their lives. So. But to answer your question, I think that, you know, if there was someone, if there were social workers, if they were in school, if there were like, early that identify, like, okay, so we did this ACE's thing, we're seeing that this kid has the potential to, you know, he's had some traumas in his life, that can later on playout as an adult, so maybe we should address these issues early. Like someone talked to me about my dad, and how it affected even my mom, she never said, Hey, are you doing with this, you know, they decided to break up and he, he went his way. But it was never a discussion, even to this day, we never talked about how that affected me. And you know, as a person with an addiction background, I think that's when at an early age of six, I think that's when I felt the most powerless because I couldn't stop him from leaving.
Brenda 21:14
It's incredible how much we don't talk about, you know, as families, it is really, truly incredible. And you mentioned the ACE's study, and I don't know if you or Hope want to tell people because I think a lot of people have never heard of this, I know to you maybe in the in the field of addiction and treatment, that it's it's probably kind of a basic 101. But maybe you can talk about what that is, and then how we could potentially use that to help people who are struggling?
Hope 21:48
Well, the adverse childhood experiences study is a huge pivotal study where people were asked just 10 questions, you know about things that happened to them before the age of 18. And the higher your score was, it's not just vulnerability to addiction, but that is really important to us. But it's also a vulnerability to medical issues. Simple things like heart conditions, and cholesterol and high blood pressure, that there's an increased vulnerability to illness grow if you had this stress growing up. And what is interesting to me about is this study has been around for a while, the general public is not really that aware of it. Everybody in the field is aware of it and like for me, when I go to the doctor, I get my blood analyzed, you know, I get my blood pressure taken, and they should do the ACE questions with me. Because if they did, I have a score of six. And my doctor should be saying to me, hey, Hope, no judgment, because it's not your fault, you had these childhood experiences. But this means that you have some vulnerability to some medical issues. And we need to keep an eye on what we give you as a prescription. Because your vulnerability to addiction is like 500% more than the person who has no score or a low score.
Hope 23:06
So that's one thing, one thing is, could we just make it normal? Like, I don't know why that topic of pain is so taboo in our culture, but it seems to be something we avoid, you know, and asking, and then providing help, like you're talking about when children are younger. But also, you know, we are there are big traumas, and there's a lot of other things that can affect children that cause pain that parents may not be aware of, there are things that happen with children, where they don't tell their parents, you know, and the parents know something's wrong, but they can't put their finger on what it is. There are things like learning disabilities, early medical issues, any kind of difference, children so much want to fit in. So any kind of painful experience, you know, so we're very careful in the film, not to blame families, for addiction, because we know that it comes from pain from many sources.
Hope 24:03
And many of the people who raised children, or all the people raised children love their children, you know, and don't want them to be addicted, but yet, have missed the vulnerabilities because it's not something that's ever talked about, their pediatricians don't ask, the pediatrician doesn't say, Hey, you guys just went through a divorce might be a good idea for everybody to get over counseling, because even though your child says they're okay, it might be affecting them.
Brenda 24:31
When you said that, about going to the doctor, it just reminded me of when you go to the doctor, what they show you is the little smiley face chart and they say on a scale of one to 10 how in pain you are, what's your pain level? It seems like we should replace that with the ACE study and say, you know, maybe it's not today's physical pain, but where are you on this pain scale? Seems like it would be a lot more appropriate.
Hope 24:57
If you ask that question. You have to be prepared to have an answer. And that is the biggest problem that we have is that physicians in my area are happy to ask, but they said hope when people tell me they have the six or seven, then what do I do? Because we don't have enough care available to meet the need. The incredible amount of need there is when people do say they're in pain and admitted. So that's the cultural, you know, system issue, you know, is, can we acknowledge pain? And then are we going to invest in treatment for that pain? So that when the doctor asks a question, they say, Hey, good, because I've got somebody it within the practice that you can go talk to right now, we're going to get you hooked up with a counselor who understands your pain.
Brenda 25:44
Right, versus here's a prescription for some, which isn't necessarily bad, not that that's bad. But it seems like in absence of some of these other services, sometimes we can just default to a medication that can have an impact today, versus doing the long work. the hard work that takes a longer time. I just, I remember during after the film, you were doing a q&a panel, and I think it was Dr. Nzinga. Harrison, that said anything over a four means you basically had a nuclear childhood. And that just really stuck with me that think that it's so so important to understand this whole thing.
Daryl 26:28
Yeah, I think that, um, sometimes I think it's like parents, you know, my mom, loved her to death, I challenged some of her punishment techniques, I would definitely still debating on calling the police on her from time to time, our parents did what they did the best that they could with the information that they had. And it's just interesting, like, you know, just like being home alone, she thought that I could handle that, which obviously, it made me an adult, which was able to be, you know, but at the time, and I think it has manifested itself as some abandonment issues. Right. And the struggling of being alone, versus, you know, being this kid that can take care of himself.
Daryl 27:14
So I think that just plays out in many different ways. And, I don't think it says anything negative about the parent, because they do what they could do. You know, my mom couldn't afford a babysitter at the time. But how it played out and how it showed up in life later on abandonment issues, and separation anxiety, and all these things that, you know, I experience through my life, like, were they related? You know, I am not the clinician here, the person that you know, all right, so, I but I, but I do think about those things, I'm always thinking about how do we get here? How did we get here? How did I get to this place, like you know, and even where we are today, like where I am with myself today? I mean, like, I'm super proud of myself, and I'm super, like, I have my own theme song going in my head, like, I'm my biggest cheerleader, which takes time to get to that point and trying to help others who are going through this process to be that too, you know, we've had so many families suffer, and moms can't figure out what happened or how did like, I don't get it?
Daryl 28:31
Hope and I talk about this all the time as well asking the right questions, and stop saying what's wrong with people and asking them what happened? And we start asking them what happened, right? You're gonna even with your own kids, like what happened? Like, what was the shift? You know, even my friends, when I'm working with somebody who recently relapsed. I said, let's play it back. Let's walk this back. You were fine. You had your job. You were doing this? What happened? Because it wasn't like a light switch. So you had to like, what did the thoughts then you went and got caught? Because there's a lot that goes into getting high? It's not just right. I mean, so let's walk this back, and then figure out when did you decide that this is what you were going to do? You know, and especially for my friends that are in a long-term recovery, who end up in relapse?
Daryl 29:24
And they'll say, well, you know what, I got paid and I was feeling really great. Or I got into this argument with my mom or you know, it's Thanksgiving. They started bringing up TV I stole 10 years ago. You're still talking about her casserole and her kid, you know, and so we have all this unfinished stuff sometimes in families that trigger use or work triggers use there are so many reasons to use right? I mean, I used because it was sunny. I used because it was raining. But when I really started to look at my addiction issues and behavior, what were those triggers and what was going on. But you know, Hope makes me I love being, you know, friends with Hope because I think a little bit further back than I normally would, like, it wasn't just because it was nice outside. Well, I started thinking like, you know, maybe I'm not good enough for a job, I got to stop or maybe I'm not good enough, maybe I'm second-guessing, you know what I mean. And if you stay in that long enough, because it's comfortable feeling uncertain, and that traumatized place is, is so familiar that it's comfortable. So it's easier to go there then to dig it out and try to be somewhere else. It's almost scary to be in this life. Like, it's easier to go back to using and running from the police and all of that stuff. Because you know, because you've done it so long. It's like normal life here is scary. So you kind of need friends, and you need a network to support you through that.
Brenda 31:01
Wow, there's so much in there. There are so many questions. But one is I was really interested, Hope, in the metaphor that you use of the tree? And if that's something that you use in your practice, if that's something that's helpful, because I'm just trying to imagine the conversation of either, how could a parent start to talk about this with their kids? Or if you know, if there are other therapists or practitioners listening? How can you use that? And how did you decide on the metaphor of this tree to go through this with these folks?
Hope 31:42
Well, I think it was the idea of roots, and the idea of what is seen and what's not seen. So what's above ground, you know, was fentanyl and how powerful it was, and the pain and the things, the dramatic episodes of what you see when somebody has a drug problem or an alcohol problem, what's not seen, and what feeds the tree and starts it all off is the ground that it grows from. And so I started to think as a social worker, because I was a grassroots social worker before clinical was what systems need to change so that there's not so much pain. So it's very nice to usher individuals into individual recovery. I love that. But I was a little more concerned about the systemic issues that push it to begin with, and suspect that if we didn't address them, then when fentanyl is gone, there's going to be something else because it was cocaine and it was crack, it was alcohol. Now it's fentanyl, it's going to be something else.
Hope 32:46
Because as long as people are in pain, we'll always be chasing and trying to fix the problem from the top of the tree. That to me, the tree metaphor seemed like the best it's grounded, it's rooted, and the trouble starts in the bottom. And so to stop, you know, Daryl and I present together all the time. So we go back and forth between the tree and the iceberg. You know, where icebergs float by, and everybody's looking at the top of the iceberg. And there's this gigantic piece of ice underneath it below the water. And he and I talked about all those factors, you know, systemic racism, how to people have different incomes and backgrounds, how what we do, we incarcerate people with addiction issues and pain, and never offer them treatment, you know, so there are big things. And then there are little things you know, so when we present, I often bring out the tree and show it because it's to me, a visual representation and something that people can understand. And also, that it's not just one thing, that its roots. So more than one thing that contributes to a big problem. And that if you have a big problem, and we've had a big problem with addiction for decades, this is nothing new, decades. And the reason is, it's got multiple roots. And until as a culture, we're willing to look at them and stare them down. It's we're going to struggle with this. And so the tree just made sense to me. But I do you love the iceberg too.
Daryl 34:15
so I love them both too right, because the tree you see the tree, and that's what you see. And, and in this country and around us people judge everybody but what they see on the tree, they see that that's the visual, right? So that's what you see. But if once you understand the roots, you understand the person. And when I talked to police officers or corrections officers, social workers, whoever, I'm like, if you check out these roots, you understand how that person is sitting before you today. You understand like you almost appreciate the person that's in recovery, or struggling through because look at those roots. Look where they came from, look what they grew out of. Right. If you look at our roots, that's a whole different game, but everybody's so quick. And unfortunately, systems only want to work on the top of the tree. They only want to like trim the leaves, they only want to address the it's easy to send someone to treatment or give them medication or do that. But they don't want to get too low the roots and fix the actual problems they don't want to address. It's easier to fix the top.
Brenda 35:25
Dealing with the roots takes time. And it takes probably a level of expertise that we just don't have, in this country enough have enough funding for enough people trained enough people willing to sit in that, like you said, Daryl, just to sit there with that and ask the questions. I'm curious how you because I know you do so much work in the community? How do you start to have this conversation? So let's say you're you're talking with somebody who is still actively using and you want to have them start to understand this idea of the trauma and the roots? Do you just spring that on them? Or how I'm just thinking of the parents who might be wanting to bring this up with our kids? What are some ways that you have that conversation with people so that they understand it? And it can start to go? Hmm, actually, yeah, that that kind of makes sense.
Daryl 36:20
So I think for me, it's always about building that foundation of relationships, right? And trust is key, we can't have those conversations until we trust the individual. And we've built that relationship. And then once we start to build that bridge, right, so you trust me, even if you're a parent, like just because you're my parent doesn't necessarily mean I trust you enough to tell you some of my stuff, right? Like, I love the relationship that I see with even my own daughters and their mom, they'll tell their mom stuff that they won't tell me. In terms of stuff, as a guy probably don't want to know, right? Especially. I don't want to know. But there's a trust factor, right?
Daryl 36:59
So when I'm working with people, you know, we build that relationship or that trust. And then once we do that, then we're able to start to really address like, you know, well, so what do you think, understanding that some of this stuff is not your stuff. You know, my dad stuff wasn't my stuff, but I carried it around for 30 years. Right? So understanding that all this isn't your stuff. And let's talk about some of the stuff that you know, where'd you go? Like, Where'd you come from? Like where, you know, especially guys that are coming on in jail, like where'd you come from? Okay. And because I've been doing this work for a long time, especially in my state, I know certain prisons and know how they run. And I know what they're like different levels. So I understand that. So we talked about that. And then really, just to get into it. And you know what? I've noticed, especially with men, because I work mostly with men. No one's shy to share their story. They want to talk about it. But no one's asking. No one's asked. Because I've done men's trauma groups in prison and week two, we were talking about sexual molestation, we have guys with tear tattoos and like, it was no shame. Like, they were like, I was molested when I was seven. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, this is week two. Okay, like, we're ready to break. Yeah, and I didn't think it would be that.
Daryl 38:27
But the more we start to talk, and we start to see that, you know, there's this thing that we think that we're unique, right? And we realize that we're not so unique. There are so many of us that have the stories that you know, when I started telling my story about my dad, many people came up to me were like, wow, that was me. You know, in from all different walks of life. You know, I tell a piece of my story about my dad being $1 dad, throwing dollars at everything, I said dollars now, dollars, right? He threw dollars and everything. I met a woman, a white female who came from a very wealthy family. And she came to me, she's like, I want to tell you something. And I was like what, and she said, your dad was like my dad. He never listened. He just threw money at it. And I was like, wow. So here's this connection I have with her that I didn't... two different spectrums. But when I told that story, it resonated with her.
Daryl 39:19
And I think that's what we do with the film. That's what we do when we're talking to people. We just want to make connections and resonate within the same, like, you're not alone in this. You're not unique. This stuff happens. A lot of people. It has no reflection on your family. It just happens. But there is a way to you can get through it. And why do we say that? Because there's 25 million people in this country that are in recovery, that that have been through it, and anytime someone identifies as a person in recovery, that means they've been through something, you know, not only that they've been through something, they got through it, and they're here to talk about it today. So it's literally a badge of honor.
Brenda 40:07
Oh, that's so true. Was that a goal for you Hope, in creating the film to not just educate the public but also more people in the field of treating addiction to understand the ACE's study and to understand trauma? What was your biggest goal when you when you thought about, let's get this out into the world,
Hope 40:34
Maybe both. The field was just starting to look at this about the connection. And it was becoming more and more popular. So some of it was I do trauma therapy. And so I wanted people in trauma therapy to be more interested in invested and helping people with addiction. So there's in the trauma field, and in the treatment field, people can be a little leery of people with addiction, they're afraid of some of their behaviors, they're afraid of their impulsivity. And I wanted people to look at it as a trauma symptom. So you're not afraid when a person has a flashback, you're okay, with working with trauma, other trauma symptoms. So looking at addiction as perhaps a symptom of pain.
Hope 41:20
So some of the film initially was for that to just start that conversation within our own field. And you know, when you start something like this, I didn't know this. But when you start a film project, we didn't have like a written out agenda, we just started because it was just one of those things. It's just people showed up in my house, we got some food out, we unplugged the refrigerator, we got things rolling, and we like let's see what happens. And there were a million possible directions we could have gone. Just every single person in that film has a story that could be its own film, you know, so just and then we realized, know what we're talking about pain, we're talking about the ACE's. And we're gonna stay here, because we really wanted to veer off and talk a little bit about mass incarceration and some of the other specific routes. And we just decided, no, let's stay here, this is enough for now. And let's also infuse compassion. And so and make it a film that we use for people in the field for people in recovery. You know, for families,
Brenda 42:19
I imagine it will start many a conversation in families, I'm hoping it will at least I think it's great, it could be a great springboard, just if you're having a hard time, you know, if you know that you need to have some of these conversations in your family or with somebody, it could be a really great opener to that to say, hey, let's watch this, and then be able to open up about some of that. So I know, Daryl, you had said in the film that once you were able to walk away, or once that once you really understood the trauma that you were able to walk away from the drugs without looking back. And I thought that was a pretty strong statement like that. You don't hear that very often. Like I just walked away from the drugs, and I don't look back. Can you just talk a little bit more about what that is? I think that's a really, really interesting statement.
Daryl 43:07
Yeah, it was, it was real, too. Because you know what, I think that, you know, I was on autopilot for so many years of my life, right? Not really understanding why I was using, I was just using, why was I cycling to all these different cycles. And then I found purpose when I was in prison, but really realizing what had happened to me, you know, happened to me, not on my own accord, my dad, you know, Dad leaving and being a big trauma, big T for me, when we talk big T's and little T's. Yeah, that piece of I held as an identity or a flaw. And I was able to see that that wasn't me. That's not who I am you know, and today, I'm a dad, I'm a present dad, you know, my kids know where their dad is. And I'm not throwing dollars at anything, because I don't have dollars to give them I will help you. And I will show you how to make $1 if you go clean the yard or something.
Daryl 44:21
But I think that was a statement for me that, drugs played such a major role in my life. And I think that all of us, people that struggle with addictions, know that we're better, know that we're worth, I think was in my head. I knew I was a better person, but I didn't know how to get to that. And I didn't know what was keeping me from that. And that piece of feeling less than because of for whatever reason, I wasn't good enough. And then one day, you know, when I identified the father thing, and Tim sort of identified his trauma things I said, I am doing good, I'm way good. I'm so good that you know No, I don't need that anymore. I don't need that to support me. Kind of like Linus, I'm dating myself in that Linus with the security blanket. Yes, drugs were that, right. And then I realized that I didn't need that blanket anymore. You know, I'm funny without drugs and funny without this and this. And I don't need that. Now, are all my days good. No, but there are a lot better without substances.
Brenda 45:24
That's really interesting to think about that just kind of the enlightenment of oh, okay, now, I can see how it would just start to fall into place and make sense. And that the sense of freedom must be just amazing,
Daryl 45:39
Because I had blamed myself for so long about things that had nothing to do with me. And I think that we go through life like that, blaming ourselves for things that the more we have no control over. You know, I think about many of my friends who have told me that they experienced molestation, no control over had no, they couldn't control it. So we blame ourselves for things that we had no control over. And then we carry that, and that's a lot, right, you know, I'm feeling less-than, think about that, I'm feeling less-than for because of something that had nothing to do with that I had no control over. I'm feeling like less-than a person because someone else left their family, or someone else did something to me as a child, you know, than nothing to do with me, like, why am I feeling that, that person should feel that, I shouldn't do that.
Daryl 46:29
And when we can get to a place like that. And I feel like for me, that's a place of wholeness, once we can get to a place of that, and the opportunity to work on ourselves. But I would be remiss to say that, you know, it happens in stages, because I was incarcerated, so I wasn't using, so I needed the abstinence to start to think clearly. And then I needed the right material, to be able to start to eat something different, I started to take in, you know, I was reading, I was doing all this stuff. So I had an opportunity to take in some different information. And it all just started to fall into place. I can't say if I stayed in the community, and I was using and I was still around, all these friends would have had this same awakening, I don't see that happening. Because I never gave myself enough time. Once again to heal.
Brenda 47:22
That's I'm glad that you said that. Because you know, I work with a lot of parents, and they often will try to avoid their kids going to jail. Whether they bail them out or whatever it is that they do, you know, they really try to prevent that from happening. That's kind of this like worst case scenario. And my son spent some time in jail, and he had quite a few epiphanies in jail. And so I think, not that you want your child to end up there. But I think you're right, there can be these periods of time where maybe that was a blessing in disguise to give you your brain space, away from substances to have you learned some tools. So I'm just I'm glad that you said that. Because I think that's a perspective that sometimes people don't think about,
Daryl 48:10
Oh, don't get me wrong, jail sucks. Westwing 25, so I'll never forget I had a cell by myself, and I had an opportunity to finally think, you know, and I always tell brothers and sisters who are in prison, I'm like, look it you know, when we were kids, we used to say timeout, I gotta tie my sneaker, timeout, you know, whatever, there's an opportunity for me to take a timeout from life. And actually, you know, to do some work on myself.
Daryl 48:44
And you know, before COVID, we were really teaching the guys how to look at Maslow's theories, according to their current situation. You know, you guys have food, shelter, all of that stuff, right? And you're feeling pretty safe, right? So let's start to work on some relationships. Let's work on self-actualization has worked on these things, because all these other needs are being met. And when that happened, you could just watch their brains go, wow. Because you don't have to worry about these other things right now. You don't have to worry about where you're going to eat. You don't have to worry about if you're safe, you don't have to worry about these things. So it gave me an opportunity to work on self-actualization relationships. Who do you want to be? Like, for so long, many of us are walking around even as adults, we don't even know who I want to be. Who we are much less what we want to be.
Brenda 49:34
I would love to ask you both. And then when Channah I'm going to ask some questions of you, if I could give you a billboard, in Times Square, to say anything that you want about either addiction, about treatment, about trauma, about this film, what would you put on your billboard? And either one of you can go first Hope or Daryl?
Hope 49:58
I know Darrell. Let's see if they're going to be the same? I think I'd say recovery is possible. I think that and I mean, in a broad sense, not just from addiction, but from pain, that it's possible.
Daryl 50:11
Yeah. You know, I was thinking you stole that. Okay. I'll let you have that hope. I would say for me recoveries a journey, right? Because it's so it's such a cool journey, man, like, I envisioned myself with this guy with this. Okay, I'm going to do myself again, right? So I'm the guy with the stick with the handkerchief on it. And I'm walking in on his journey. I meet, people like Hope, and Channah, and Brenda, and all these people, right? Sometimes you meet them, they join you, and they may come a few miles, they may come a distance but we keep meeting all these different cool people on a journey. And that's what recovery gave me whereas addiction was so dark, and lonely, that it was just like, even in a world where there's millions of people, I felt so alone. But recovery is this journey. You can't go anywhere and man and meet some wonderful people, I met so many cool people, that I just think that you know, man, what a gift. And even if you fall on that journey, there are people to pick you up. If you go somewhere else, you could say, Hey, I'm looking for my people. I'm looking for my tribe, and they're everywhere.
Brenda 51:21
So good. Well, Channah, I want to thank you in particular, because you connected me with these amazing people. And you are with Eleanor Health Foundation. I would love to learn more about what that is how you became involved. And then also, what was your response to this film?
Channah 51:40
Oh, gosh, I was thinking of your billboard question just now.
Brenda 51:46
And I'm going to ask you the same question.
Channah 51:48
So if I were to put something on Time Square, I think it'd be something like an amazing life as possible. And seek recovery, something like that. Or one of the statistics and most people who try to recover succeed, that's absolutely true, over 50% of people successfully recover, I can send you the stat.
Brenda 52:11
I love that. You know, I've always wondered about that statistic. And I've always wondered, how would you ever get a statistic like that. So that's fascinating.
Channah 52:23
And one of the things that I love so much about this film is, is the hope in it, and the hope of recovery. And, you know, it's, it's just so vital for those of us who are in recovery ourselves who or love people in recovery, or who've lost people. I have lost people who have not made it. You know, I've used Narcan with loved ones and seen it work for that day, but then not later. And it's for those that are left, and then for also those who are parents. It's a terrifying journey. And I've been a parent and guardian of teens as well. And I know some of your journey, Brenda, I found so inspiring. And I wanted to speak that up as well. Just thank you for your journey. And for all the work that you've done, giving hope to others.
Brenda 53:20
Yeah, it's so important, because I think you see, and I was thinking this and watching the film, too, that you look at some of the things that have happened to people are so tragic, and like Hope said, you could make a film about every single one of them. And then to see that you can overcome that and that you can find recovery because as parents I know when you're in the thick of it. And you know your kid is out there using or they're just refusing treatment and refusing you know, any help. It can just seem so hopeless, like oh my gosh, this kid is not going to make it. So I agree. We've got to hear those stories and see people like Daryl and people like you know, Hope and like all of everybody in the film, I think just so perfectly represents the fact that stuff happens. Really bad stuff happens and then good stuff can happen too.
Channah 54:18
And I love your shame-free approach on your podcast. I love the shame-free approach that Hope and Tory and Daryl took in developing this film. And addiction is something that affects all of us in our country. It's a cultural answer to pain and grief and trauma. Our kids and sometimes our parents and other folks. It is part of their journey and being able to walk in a judgmental way. It's so important.
Brenda 54:52
So how How did Eleanor Health Foundation become involved with this and maybe you can tell us a little bit about the work that you do.
Channah 55:01
Eleanor Health Foundation is a brand new nonprofit, that is aims to be a resource to increasing equity with access to recovery. So we provide treatment scholarships for outpatient care for folks with addiction, we also provide recovery scholarships. So if somebody is in recovery, but in early stages where they don't have a lot of income or resources set up yet, and they have a barrier, let's say your tire blows, and you've been in recovery for three months, and your job is as a delivery person, how do you pay for that tire, you're still paying court fees, everything's super tight. So that's an example of one ways we've helped out.
Channah 55:43
So if you can document you're in treatment, and get signed off by your case manager or therapist or doctor, we can help in small ways as well to help people not have those road bumps, take them over the edge, because they're so you know, as Daryl said earlier, like, sometimes, you know, I was high because it was sunny, sometimes it was raining, right? Trying to recover, you know, a nail in your tire can, that's the end of your job, then your girlfriend's gonna be mad at you. And then you don't have Christmas presents for the kids. He was able to work that next weekend and bought Christmas presents for the kids himself instead of having to do an angel tree. And he was so proud, he sent me a picture of those presents, he bought himself. And that was well worth, you know, the $76 tire Discount Tire that we were able to cover.
Brenda 56:33
So, so awesome. And I will put a link in the show notes to all of this good stuff that we're talking about. And Hope you said that the what is the release date on Apple and Amazon?
Hope 56:47
So the release date is on the sixth of April, we been picked up by First Run Features as a distributor. And they are helping us to distribute the film. So we've been distributing the film, you know by word of mouth and through connections and friends and Facebook and social media. And now, we don't have to run so hard, because First Run Features is picking it up for us. So they're advocating for us and trying to get wider distribution along with setting up showings and selling licenses to educational facilities.
Brenda 57:25
Awesome. So that's amazing.
Hope 57:29
So I don't have to drag my old projector around and go to all the libraries. And me and Daryl will be talking at all these places. I mean it was really fun. We had this like traveling roadshow. But this gives us wider reach.
Brenda 57:43
Well, it sounds like there's a lot of education that's needed. And I was just gonna ask in wrapping up. If somebody is listening to this, and they're thinking either for themselves or for for a kid that they've got, you know, wow, I really need to look into this, what would your recommendation be like, what's the first one or two steps they should take?
Hope 58:05
I think it's really helpful to have longer-term therapy that you stay in for a while, even if you may do a stay in a treatment center, and you come back out again, I because I think it's the relationship that you have with perhaps a helper, a neutral person outside the family, who is also there for family members, that's really helpful. Because like Channah said, it's a journey and it takes Daryl was saying the same thing. It can take time. And there are layers to recovery. You know, there's the first phase of just getting your life back and, and repairing your brain and learning some of the skills you miss because you miss all these developmental stages when you're using so you forget how to date or you never learned how to date or you don't know how to ask for help. You know, so all that has to be put together. And then you can do the work of let me figure out where the pain is, you know, where did this all start. And you can begin to undo that. So long term, you know, therapists that you trust and like, and it would be really helpful if they knew a little bit about not just addiction, but also about trauma.
Brenda 59:08
well, any last words anything I should have asked that I didn't or that you just want to share with listeners.
Channah 59:16
I just hope every one of your listeners goes into Amazon or Apple or iTunes and watches this incredible movie. It's around 56 minutes. It's appropriate for teenagers and above. You could show it at work and all staff. I don't care what your field is. There's some colleague that's impacted by addiction and I think it would be great for HR teams to take time for this. I just think it's really an incredibly uplifting, super informative, amazing, amazing film.
Brenda 59:46
I would agree. I would agree. And I do like that it's appropriate for younger kids because you aren't seeing people shooting up and overdosing and all of that stuff that none of us need to see any more of so good. Really good. Hope or Daryl any last words that you want to share.
Hope 1:00:03
I mean, I would say for family members that are struggling, to not give up, stay connected to the people that you love, even though sometimes it's really painful and very difficult. That's the reason that people get sober, they get sober eventually, because they have people and they have love to go back to and they follow that trail back. So whatever you can do to stay connected, doesn't mean you don't set limits. You can set limits, and you can take space. But you can still take your person out to lunch, you can still go out for breakfast, you can buy them some clothes, but stay connected, because that is the one factor that I see in the people that do better is that they have people who love them that stayed with them. And in that don't underestimate the power of that.
Daryl 1:00:54
Yeah, I think Hope said it, it's interesting. As I was sitting here, looking down, someone just relapsed. And they're like, trying to get a bed and they're like, you know, can we help him get a bed? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. And I think that we just want to say to people that are in active addiction, I love you, we love you. Stick and stay, imagine a miracle happens. And just for those family members, you know, don't give up, but also keep it in mind. I always talk about the pebbles in the boulders, not the boulders that we could see, it's the pebbles that trip us up. It's the pebbles that we slip on and tend to fall that trip us up, you know, boulders, we can see we can maneuver around them.
Daryl 1:01:37
It's little things like that we didn't think about like, Oh, I got a job in a restaurant. And I thought, you know, I got my first job in a restaurant, but I'm an active addiction. But those of us that worked in restaurants know that there's a lot of addiction in the background in restaurants. So I always kind of say, well, you know, man, I don't know if you should get that job in the restaurant. But that's a pebble that you know, I got the job, I got a dishwashing job, well, they get high in restaurants and, or construction, you know, they drink on those. So like, you know, unless you're really strong in your recovery, you just have to think about those pebbles early like I can't, you know, maybe you shouldn't work a job where you get money or tips every night. If money is a trigger, like so just trying to work with our people and getting an understanding, you know, many swings, I have many swings at the bat before I got to hit one out of the park. And we know that at any time, you know, you just have to keep you know, I just for me, I pray to God that He keeps me grounded and humble on this journey because I love it so much. And I never wanted to define me as some, like I know it all because the second I think I know it all is the day I may relapse and die.
Brenda 1:02:55
And so important to be connected with people like you, to be connected with people who have been there who can help you through it. Don't try to do it alone. Get plugged in. So thank you and congratulations on this amazing project.
Daryl 1:03:13
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the invite.
Hope 1:03:17
Thank you, Brenda.
Brenda 1:03:18
Absolutely.
Daryl 1:03:20
Watch the film and call us call us call us. We will come, you know, we'll Zoom.
Brenda 1:03:26
Definitely, definitely, well I'm going to host a viewing for my the moms in my community in The Stream. So we'll all be watching so your phones may be lighting up.
Thanks so much for listening, also, if you want to get on my email list, so you can get the email every Wednesday that I send out just as a way to support you and what you're going through you can go to Brendazane.com/email and just drop your email there and I'll send you a short kind of one-pager email on Wednesdays, and I would love to be able to do that for you.
You might also want to download my free ebook called “HINDSIGHT, Three Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Addicted To Drugs.” It is packed with information that I truly wish I had known back in the darker years with my son. And so I share it now in case it might be helpful to you in your journey. You can get that at Brendazane.com/hindsight, and I will put a link to both of these resources in the show notes as well.