What the Chinese Farmer Teaches Us About Parenting Kids Using Substances, with Dina Cannizzaro
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guest: Dina Cannizzaro, Director of Learning & Advisor in The Stream Community
Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here
Want my weekly email for support during this difficult time? Click here to request it
Podcast support from:
HOPESTREAM COMMUNITY
We provide connection, knowledge, and healing for parents when their child is misusing drugs or alcohol.
Learn more and join us at www.hopestreamcommunity.org
About this episode:
In this episode, Stream advisor Dina Cannizzaro is back with me to discuss the profound lessons in the story of the Chinese farmer. The parable applies to everyone’s lives, but it is especially relevant for those going through difficult times, as many parents in the Hopestream Community are. Take it from two moms who have survived their child’s extreme substance misuse: you never know what good may come from tragedy and misfortune.
Episode Resources:
Story of The Chinese Farmer video
-
00;00;00;12
Dina
Oh, there can be hope. And yes, not everybody's story and the same, but you can decide how you want to present yourself in your loved one's life while you're doing the journey with them. I wanted Parker to know that he was loved, not dependent on whether or not he was using or not using, but that he was loved. Period.
00;00;33;04
Brenda
You're listening to Hopestream, the place for those parents and teens and young adults who are misusing drugs and alcohol in a treatment program or working their way toward recovery. It's your private space to learn and to gain encouragement and understanding. For me. Your host, Brenda Zane, and fellow parent to a child who struggled. And I'm so glad you're here to learn more about all the resources available to you. Besides the podcast. Please head over to HopestreamCommunity.org
00;01;03;12
Brenda
Hey, guess what? Deena, Cam Azaro is back with us today. DNA is an advisor for us at Hope's dream community. She is a proud parent, coach, and ITC parent coach. She is a lifelong educator, been in the school system for a very long time, and she and I just always had these great conversations and we decided to chat today about a little story called The Story of the Chinese Farmer.
And I'm going to let you listen to it here before we launch into the conversation. It really struck a chord with Deena, as it did with many of the members in her community, because it gives you a little bit of a different perspective on things. And what I do know for sure is when you have a child who's struggling, it's really easy to get tunnel vision because you are so busy trying to find resources, trying to find the right therapist.
Or maybe you're at the point where you're looking for a treatment program or a step down program, or you might be dealing with the legal system. And it is so much it's so overwhelming and your vision tends to go straight toward fixing the current crisis. And it's really hard to zoom out sometimes and take a bigger picture. So this story kind of helps do that.
00;02;29;28
Brenda
And Dina and I thought it would be really important because she and I both have a very unique perspective of having gone through kind of the worst of the worst with our kids and then now being on the other side of it and having come through it and really looking at this whole experience is a blessing in our lives, which I know sounds completely insane.
And we talk about that. So don't worry, we're not going to leave you hanging with that. But we talk here about the maybes, which is part of the story about is what's going on a good thing or a bad thing somewhere in between and how we can start to think of how we go through this experience ourselves as humans, as parents, what we can do to show up every day.
And Dina is just such a joyful person and carries herself so beautifully with her son Parker today. But it wasn't always like that. And what I love about Dina is that she is not afraid to fess up to that, that she, at one point in the relationship, was a mess. She did not show up in the way that she wanted to and was able to make that shift.
And so I think it's great perspective for you to have. So I will let you take a listen now to the story of the Chinese farmer and my conversation with Dina Kotaro. Enjoy.
00;03;59;19
Alan Watts
Once upon a time, there was a Chinese farmer who lost a horse away and all the neighbors came round that evening and said, That's too bad. And he said, Maybe the next day the horse came back and brought seven wild horses with it, and all the neighbors came around and said, Wow, that's great, isn't it? And he said, Maybe.
The next day his son was attempting to tame one of these horses and was riding it on the throne, broke his leg, and all the neighbors came round in the evening and said, Well, that's too bad, isn't it? And the farmer said, Maybe. And the next day the conscription officers came around looking for people for the army, and they rejected his son because he had a broken leg.
And all the neighbors came round that evening and said, Isn't that wonderful? And he said, Maybe the whole process of nature is an integrated process of immense complexity, and it is really impossible to tell whether anything that happens in it is good or bad, because you never know what will be the consequences of a misfortune, or you never know what will be the consequences of good fortune.
00;05;34;08
Brenda
Christina. Welcome back. Dina is one of our advisors in the stream community and in our overall upstream community and does a lot of our classes and workshops. If you've taken one of our workshops, you probably know Dina, and we have these little chats that go back and forth in the community. And I think there was a couple of weeks ago you sent me a chat and said, Oh, we should have a conversation about this on the podcast.
And I was like, Yes. Dina had some thoughts about it and I agreed. And we it's something that we really see a lot in our community and with the parents that we coach and we do workshops with. And that's really the way you described it. Dina, to me was kind of the maybes. Let's let's launch there if you want, into the maybes.
And what did you mean by that?
00;06;20;20
Dina
The story referenced, you know, there was a lot of uncertainties in an experience. Yes. Like there are a lot of uncertain days in our experience with our loved ones, our kids. And it's really impossible for us to know if those uncertainties are in the end are going to bring misfortune or good fortune, even though it feels like misfortune at the time.
There are things that that those misfortunes can bring in the end that are like great fortune. And so it seems really sad and hard and is sad and hard. You know, I don't want to discount that for like my family. Those maybes turned into extraordinary circumstances that changed the functioning of our family and were better because of it.
So like a caveat, though, I want to say is I wouldn't wish the journey on anybody who doesn't need to have it right. But when you reframe it, you can have a journey of learning and of loving your child in a way that you've never left them before. That makes the difference for them.
00;07;46;04
Brenda
I don't know about you because we both have kids now. In long term recovery, I sometimes will talk about or write about or share about, you know, how everything that my son went through and that we went through as a family like you just said, turned out to be an incredible blessing because now it has led me to my work and my son to his work and and I know that that's not the case for everybody.
And so I also struggle a little bit with it, because I know for some it is and we come through it and it becomes this huge blessing. And then I know that there's others who don't have that experience. And and even if you are still in the thick of it and you don't know which way the cards are going to fall for you, you're probably listening to someone like us talk about this and go, What in the world are they talking about?
Like, how could this possibly lead to anything good? I mean, do you do you feel that sometimes? Because I kind of every time I open my mouth to talk about like, oh, but, you know, if my son hadn't gone through this and he wouldn't be helping the kids that he's helping today. And I just kind of cringe when I hear myself say that because I can I just put myself back in late 2014 and I would have just rolled my eyes and hit stop on the podcast.
00;09;05;13
Dina
So, yeah, and wanted to say that up, lady. Yeah, that's not how it's looking for me and I, but and I can take myself back to that space in a matter of seconds. It's even though it's been six and a half years, I actually can bring myself back in. Did a few months back really quickly to that what it's like to be feeling that grief and that loss of your hopes and dreams for your child and how that that grief is so real and how hard it is to maintain hope and joy.
And that's why I think it's important. While we're hesitant to talk about there can be hope. And yes, not everybody's story and the same, but you can decide how you want to present yourself in your loved one's life while you're doing the journey with them.
And that is something that we do have control over since we don't have control over so many aspects of the journey, we can have control over how we want our loved one to experience us when we have interactions with them. And like my biggest thing was I wanted Parker to know that he was loved not dependent on whether or not he was using or not using, but that he was loved, period.
That was so important to me and it made me feel like I could live without regret, no matter how it turned out right.
00;10;54;09
Brenda
When you say that we are in control of how they experience us, I think that is so powerful. Maybe talk a little bit more about that because I think that's a really giant key to all of this and it can get overlooked in the craziness in the books and the podcast and the classes in the therapy sessions and you know, all of that.
It's pretty simple, but it is not easy. So maybe expound a little bit on that.
00;11;27;11
Dina
I worry because I don't want it to sound like I have all the answers because back then I, I, I still don't. But back then I had no answers. It was like shooting from the hip on a daily basis until I was able to get some help and get some skills. But because I never knew what each day was going to bring or offer to me or to our family.
With Parker, it was impossible for me to know what the outcome was. And my mind usually went to a negative outcome like, Oh, it's going to end bad, it's going to end bad. And I think that's a natural thing to feel when life is chaotic and full of drama. And what I learned from a lot of people who had way more experience than me is if I could try to keep my eyes on a bigger picture and it would allow me to try and be something good for Parker when I did get to experience who like to be the kind of shining light in what was a very dark place for healing that was filled
with like shame and guilt. And so when I did get to talk to him to make sure that I talked about life in a normal way and not make our entire interaction with each other about his substance use. And that's super hard to do when you're going through it.
00;13;12;20
Brenda
Yeah, because you're terrified.
00;13;15;10
Dina
Yeah. Yes. I mean, I was sure that it was going to end. I was sure that it was going to end in Parker dying, to be frank. I mean, I did heroin use. So many of the people that he hung out with died during the process. And so a lot of times our phone call would be, well, so-and-so died.
And I'm thinking to myself, or are you next? But but the next question to ask myself is, if I'm so sure that that's the case, I want to make sure you know how loved you are and I want to make sure you know that there is no shame that you need to feel the people who love you aren't about your shame and aren't about your guilt.
We're all about getting you healthy and wanting to have you for longer periods of time in our life. And so since I was so sure that that was going to be the outcome at that particular point, it was so important for me to leave with Parker the knowledge that you don't have to feel ashamed, you don't have to feel guilty.
We're going to accept you back into our lives at any point in any condition, and we love you so much. I wanted him to know it was love. So if he died, he knew he was loved when that happened. Because my greatest fear was that he would die alone. And I wanted his thoughts to be. I know my mom loves me.
00;14;55;08
Dina
And that was so important to me in a very lonely and chaotic circumstance. And what came from that is my ability to stop talking so much about the drug use and to talk more about, Hey, guess what happened today? Grandma did this or your brother did that. I had pizza for dinner because I wanted him to be able to stay connected to our everyday life and not make his whole be about substance use.
00;15;36;20
Brenda
Yeah, and I think that's something that we often do, is we when this enters our world, we are so scared that we make every interaction and every conversation about it, not because, you know, we're trying to create shame or anything like that, but because it is so scary. And we just think, Oh my gosh, can't you see how what this is doing to you?
And we think if I can just have the right story or the right words, or if I read the right book with the right quote, or if I send the right link to the right treatment center or whatever it is, we think that's going to be the magic wand that changes everything. You know, Dina and I have quite a few years of experience at this, and we can just tell you that's not going to work because that's just usually not how it goes.
But I like what you said about at the end of the day, what does my child know for sure about my love for them?
00;16;39;26
Dina
Yeah.
00;16;41;03
Brenda
You are 100% in control of that, which is unusual because there's a lot in this experience that you are not in any way, shape or form in control of. So I like that. And I think what it takes is and I'd be curious to get your thoughts on this is a huge amount of self-awareness to be able to say, okay, I have 15 minutes with her or him.
Can I avoid the topic when that's all I want to talk about because I just want to shake them and get them to understand what's going on. And I in, you know, when I boil it down because in my brain, I kind of try to deconstruct it like, okay, I hear you, Dina. I hear you. Brenda. What? Tell me, how do I do this?
What is that for you? When you deconstruct everything and you go, okay, if I could if I could have a magic wand and give everybody one gift in this situation, what what comes up for you?
00;17;42;18
Dina
Well, for me and I know that sounds so simplistic, what it was is connection. So I wanted Parker to know that he could have a reentry to his family whenever he was wanting that. So here's a menu of things you can do. You can tell them how much you're missing them, but not in a way that makes them feel guilty.
More like, you know, when we sit at the table, we really miss you. You want to come for dinner one night? No strings attached, you know, or. Hey, I just wanted to let you know, you know, what's going on with grandma and grandpa, because for our family, my mom and dad were such a huge part of my kid's life.
And, you know, for so long that I just knew that deep down inside, even when he was using, he still cared about his family. He was just embarrassed to be around them because of what he was doing. So for me, that self-awareness was to kind of not make all the talk about him, but make it more about the other people.
And I would end every conversation making it about him by saying, you know, I always tell parents have a tagline. And my tagline was, Parker, I love you so much. I can't wait for the day. You tell me you're ready for help. And that was what I would end. Every conversation, every letter, every Facebook message, every everything would end with that line.
00;19;27;00
Dina
But it was more because I didn't want to make the whole conversation about it. And he said something to me one time when I had, you know, had some therapy and started studying craft. And he said to me, Mom, you're different. And he said to me, like two months ago, when I got myself all up in a tizzy because he broke up with a girlfriend, that or she broke up with him and he loved her dearly.
And when he called me upset and crying, my mind automatically went to, Oh my God, in my head. He's going to use again in his mind. He said, Mom, I will know that you are in recovery. When your mind doesn't go there, automatically. And I was I was embarrassed. I was like, Oh my gosh, he's right. He should be able to be sad without me out thematically going back to where I was.
00;20;30;29
Brenda
Yeah, it's so easy right to fall back to are just default like scared place of fear and panic and and I'm so glad that you guys have the relationship that you do that he can say that to you and that you guys don't that when you when you kind of relapsed in your own way to your old behaviors that that didn't just sever the relationship that he's able to say one.
00;20;59;22
Dina
Oh yeah yes it's no problem it.
00;21;04;02
Brenda
It is pretty simplistic but it is so difficult to do in the moment. And I think a lot of times, at least where I experience is a lot of anger in there was no, I'm embarrassed about what I'm doing, so I'm not going to go see my grandparents. He didn't care. He was angry and he would show up, you know, under the influence, whether it didn't care about anybody.
And I think that makes it really hard sometimes to think about some of these practices that we talk about as far as, you know, let them know you love them. Because when I would say I love you so much that I will not let you, you know, whatever. And then I got the big F you and the finger and the whole punched in the wall.
Right. It's like it's not always they are not always receptive of our attempts at peace and calm.
00;22;05;12
Dina
And more times than not, they're not right. Yeah, more times than not. If they're using we're speaking to the drugs. We're not speaking to the kids that we knew and brought up when they were little. So we're not speaking to the same person. So a lot of times it does present as angry. It presents as resentful that we're interfering.
You know, for Parker, his is youth went into adulthood past 18, and so there was resentment about me trying to interfere. You know, I've got it. I'm okay. Don't worry about me. It's like, Oh, okay, Go run, Go stand in front of a train. I'm not going to worry about you.
00;22;53;14
Brenda
Exactly.
00;22;54;29
Dina
Yeah. Don't be. You know, I want to say don't be ridiculous, but from where he was standing at that point in his state of mind, that's how he felt. But I. I think the reason this story about the maybes really got to me is because in the midst of it, I would tell other people in a very angry tone of voice when they would say, you know, I'm going to pray for him and it's going to be okay, you're doing things right.
And I just wanted to be like, what the heck is the matter with you? You actually have no clue. This cannot be all right and there will be nothing good that comes out of this. And I know that that is truly the outcome for some people. But the reason the maybe story was so like, it just struck me is because even though I would never have imagined that any good fortune could come from the misfortune, it did.
And our family was broken. His brother and sister wouldn't speak to him and had cut off all ties because they were angry for seeing what it was doing to me, you know. And Parker had tried getting sober twice and it didn't last. And so there was a lot of misfortune and bad consequences that came from his use and from our journey.
But the now is incredible. And I'm watching it before my eyes and everybody that was affected by the bad stuff and the misfortune is it changed human for the better.
00;24;56;17
Brenda
If you're here listening to Hope Stream, I’m guessing you might be glad to know there are other resources that you can take advantage of as you work on getting your family to a better place. We've now combined all the information you need into one simple space called Hope Stream Community. It's where you can learn about our private online communities. For moms and dads, our retreats are educational offerings and of course, the podcast host Dream Community is a nonprofit organization that exists solely to help you navigate this challenging season in life and to be connected, educated and taken care of so that you're better equipped to help your child make positive change in their lives. You are not helpless when your child misuses substances. And we're here to give you the tools and information you need. After the episode, take a look at Hope Stream Community dot org to find what we offer. Now back to the show.
00;26;00;12
Brenda
It actually never once occurred to me when we were in it that there could be anything like it. I never even asked the question like, Huh, I wonder if there's going to be something good out of this someday. That question never even entered my mind. So first of all.
00;26;15;06
Dina
It sounds stupid.
00;26;16;16
Brenda
It sounds stupid. And so if you're listening and you're the person who like me, never even that never even dawned on me, I think that's that can be a big thing to just wrap your brain around. And then the other thing is the story of the farmer and the maybes and, well, this might be good or it might be bad is it helps you zoom out a little bit and try to look at it.
I always talk about getting in the balcony seats, try to go up, get in the balcony and look down because the view is always so different from there and you still might not see anything. You still might be like those two ladies on that podcast are out of their minds because I don't see anything. And you know, it can be years and years and years where you don't see anything.
So at least in them. But what I do think is exciting is you can start to see change in yourself. So again, this all kind of goes back to what are we in control of and what are we not? And like you said, we are 100% in control of how am I going to show up? How am I going to?
Well, you know, like I think about it, too. Like when you walk in and out of a room, if you were a cent, what cent do you bring to a room? And what do you leave behind when you walk out the door? Those are the things that we are in control of. And so if I'm not at least working on those, then that's on me, right?
00;27;47;15
Dina
I love that analogy of going to the balcony because I think going to the balcony, going to the mezzanine, going to the side pockets, going to the orchestra, going wherever you need to go to get a different view than being 100% in the negative. Even if you could get that point 5%, that is good that I believe that that's a start to a maybe, you know.
Right. Like you said, you were saying it never occurred to you that something good could come out of that horrendous experience. And I don't think most people ever have that thought like, hey, in the end, this going to be okay, This can be good. I don't think most people have that, that you actually have to have this self-awareness that you want to look for that.
00;28;45;24
Brenda
Right.
00;28;46;22
Dina
When you first look, you're not going to see it. That's where you have to get different perspectives and look at it from different viewpoints. And the viewpoint that I had to look at it from is if Parker passes due to overdose, what do I want his thoughts to be? You know, when he's sitting alone, shooting up by himself?
I want him to have this thought. My mom loved me every day of my life and there is no doubt in my mind about that. And I know it sounds morbid, but he will tell me today. He's like, Mom, I knew one thing when I was homeless, when I was living in the bushes in Santa Cruz, or when I went to Utah and I was in the snow in a park and I had nothing.
I knew one thing for sure, and that was if I called you and said, I'm ready for help, you would be there. I knew you loved me. There was no doubt in my mind ever. And I also heard everything you told me, even though I didn't acknowledge it a lot.
00;30;08;00
Brenda
Correct.
00;30;10;04
Dina
So that when I was ready for help, I knew darn well who the first person I was going to call. Not to ask you to help me, but to tell you because I knew you would just be so happy. Yeah. So they do hear us.
00;30;26;09
Brenda
They do. And I think if you're in the in the position where your child is really angry. Right. And they're not having these conversations about, wow, you know, I know I need help, but I just can't do it now. Like if you're just getting the F-bombs in the finger all the time, they still do hear us. They will never acknowledge it, ever.
Yes. While they're using for sure. But they do hear and I think this is also a really good point. We in the invitation to change, we talk about red lights and green lights and I think there is a time and a place where you have some of these conversations with them and there's times when you don't.
00;31;08;15
Dina
Right. This whole idea of less is more. It really is when you engage in conversation with your loved one, less is more. And that's why I like that tagline in is such a great idea. Yes. Because if you know and I'm telling you, you can trust me on this one, that they are not going to acknowledge, but they are hearing your tagline because if you say it every single time, it gets embedded in their head, whether they want it or not, it's their rate.
So the the whole idea of ending the conversation with your greatest thing, you want to to be with them, that's a good idea. And then, you know, like knowing that there are a lot of maybes and you don't know the outcome, you just don't. So if Parker tells me my friend died, then I think maybe he's going to want help now.
Nope, he didn't. If he says, You know, Mom, I'm tired of being hungry and happy to steal, I'm thinking maybe he's getting sick of the lifestyle. But at that time he wasn't. But you don't know. The truth of the matter is, you don't know what the outcome is going to be. None of us do. Your son Branda was a great example.
You know that the outcome would be entirely different, especially at the end.
00;32;39;19
Brenda
Never could have predicted in a billion years. In a billion years.
00;32;45;08
Dina
Correct.
00;32;45;26
Brenda
Never could have predicted. Yeah. I love the tagline idea because I spent more years than I care to admit. In the advertising industry and in the advertising industry, we talk about frequency and that is when you're doing media planning, you plan the frequency of how many times your audience is going to hear your message, and there's a whole formula for it, and it's the exact same thing.
What you're saying is make sure they you have a high frequency in your child. Those words going into their ears so that they know and they can repeat that tagline at any moment. Like, can we repeat the Nike tagline? I'm guessing you probably can. So I love that idea. I think that's that's a little golden nugget right there.
00;33;32;27
Dina
There's just yeah, there's so much there's so much I know.
00;33;38;05
Brenda
I know. We could talk for days.
00;33;39;15
Dina
I know it's hard to find hope, but there is hope until there's, you know. Yes. Not in every situation. But you've got to believe it because if you don't believe it, then you're going to be sending that message to your kid. And the message we want to send him is you. I want to empower you and I want you to know that you are capable of doing something different.
00;34;04;05
Brenda
And that is such a more positive message than you need to get sober. You need to stop using all these drugs like the way that you just said that is a positive and firm in and affirming message to them that shows them that they're still really incredible people with agency over their life. And I think that's what they need to hear.
00;34;28;19
Dina
Part of them doesn't believe in themselves anymore, and the world, many times because of the stigma, is telling and they don't believe that they're capable of changing. We have to be the one that believes, even when we're frustrated with them, believes that they're capable of change.
00;34;44;12
Brenda
Yes, absolutely. Well, I want to wrap it up. Just going back to something that you said in the beginning, which was that you didn't want to have any regrets. And I think that's a really important point, not just for this conversation as far as thinking bigger than me. Now, looking at what could be good, but also just there are things that you can learn and do that will increase the odds of you helping create conditions for change.
And we talked about that on your first episode that you were on is how we can create those conditions for change. But I like the idea of no regrets in that I did everything that I could from learning skills and learning tools and understanding and educating myself all the way through to creating my tagline. Like there are definitely things you can do.
So at the end of the day, you can say, okay, today did I, did I do what I can do? Did I? Did I take hold of what I'm in control of? Make change? And sometimes, you know, you're tired and you don't. Here's too tired today, But I can still keep a positive attitude and say tomorrow I'm going to do X, Y, and Z.
So I just like that. No regrets. I think that was just that's a little tagline that just stuck in my mind.
00;36;08;22
Dina
Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you for having me. I mean, maybe we should do a podcast and just start listing all of the things that moms and dads can do because our moms and dads are doing so much already. But sometimes I, like my counselor would tell me, you know, get on Facebook Messenger and write a message every day.
And that helped. But I bet between all of us, we have so many little nuggets.
00;36;38;03
Brenda
Totally. We can call it the nugget episode. I don't know something, but I like that idea. Like, yeah, you know, because there are there are some really practical things that you can do, not just for them but for yourself that I think are important to highlight.
00;36;51;22
Dina
So we'll do it.
00;36;53;07
Brenda
We will do another time. Another time. Thank you so much for your time, Dina.
00;36;58;28
Dina
Thanks, Brenda.
00;37;01;10
Brenda
Okay. That is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda Zane dot com forward slash podcast. All of the episodes are listed there and you can also find curated playlists there. So that's very helpful. You might also want to download a free e-book I wrote. It's called Hindsight Three Things I Wish I Knew when My Son Was Misusing Drugs.
It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from Brenda's income for slash hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself.
And I will meet you right back here next week.