Back Pocket Parenting; Getting Un-Enmeshed From A Child Who Misuses Drugs and Alcohol, with Cathy Cioth
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
Guest: Cathy Cioth, Co-Founder, Hopestream Community
Free ebook: “HINDSIGHT: 3 Things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs, by Brenda Zane. Download here
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About this episode:
Parents often don’t realize they’re deeply and unhealthfully embedded in their child’s life- especially when that child struggles with their relationship to substances. The official term for this dysfunction is called enmeshment, but since Cathy and I aren’t therapists, we liken it to back-pocket parenting. If you find yourself intertwined in your child’s life to the degree that they’re not doing age-appropriate things for themselves, or you don’t know where they end and you begin, this is your episode.
Episode Resources:
AutoCamp (The Stream Spring retreat venue)
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BRENDA:
Hello. Hello. I am back with a special episode with my co-pilot Kathy Coith, who runs all things in The Stream, helps coordinate everything that happens in Hopestream Community. , she made our retreat happen. I'll tell you what, our retreats would not happen without this woman. She pulls all of the strings in the background and connects with our moms. It's amazing. So truly special human being of super happy to have her here today. Unfortunately, at the end of our recording, her internet died, so I did a little pinch hitting towards the end to wrap up some of the things that we had talked about. So it's a little bit of a quirky one for you today, but I think you're gonna get a lot out of it. We decided to talk about a topic that we both struggled with still, you know, struggle with, which is enmeshment, and that can take many forms, but it's something that I think most of us deal with in some to some degree. So we decided to tackle it on an episode. So I hope you enjoy it. I apologize again for the drop in Kathy's audio at the end. I did my best to try and fill in. So here you go. This is Kathy and me talking about enmeshment.
Miss Kathy. We're back. It's been so long. been so long. I feel kind of bad cuz The last time we did this, I said, oh, we're gonna be so much more regular about doing this. And then, I don't know, it's like three months later, but here we are.
Cathy: 2:35
Well, that's things happen. We've been a little busy. We've been a little busy in a great way.
Brenda: 2:42
We have been busy in a great way. We wanted to talk about, this is something that comes up all the time. So there's a topic that we really wanted to talk about today, which is enmeshment, which there's a lot of, um, Elements to that. But before we talk about that, we are just um, five days post retreat, our amazing retreat in upstate New York. So I would love to get your thoughts and reflections on that cuz we're still sort of on this like retreat high.
Cathy: 3:13
I know actually. And the retreat highs always last longer. Even last year was a great retreat and, and this one, I, it's just been so wonderful. It was a great retreat. We were at auto camp, which if you haven't checked them out, highly recommend. We all got to stay in these really cool airstreams and more importantly, just gather with like-minded moms and love on each other. just see the beauty of upstate New York and the Catskills. That was really fun and have some great sessions. Uh, did great art lesson. Went to a barn show so fun. Just so many things. Got to go to Woodstock, eat some delicious food.
Brenda: 3:57
Right. And you know, several people mentioned while we were there that other people in their lives had said, Ew, like, isn't that gonna be really depressing to go spend four days with all of these other moms who have kids who struggle with substance use? And it's like, actually we don't, we're not there for our kids. Like we're we're there for us. And it's just so fun. We have so much fun, so many smiles and hugs and laughs.
Cathy: 4:24
I have to say the laughter was just such an icing on the cake. I think we laughed so much. I mean, I know. I just keep thinking about some of the fun things that came out of that and playing the game and just, we laughed so hard. That was great.
Brenda: 4:41
it was super fun.
Cathy: 4:42
it's, we weren't sitting around crying and moping our lives and, um, our tears were happy tears and really just the bonding and camaraderie with other moms who get it. that was just so important. It's so great.
Brenda: 4:57
So amazing. And I, you know, we always say this, but as I was there, I was thinking, man, if I had had this, when I was going through this experience to be in a room with, you know, I think there was 14 of us, like. Doing amazing artwork, you know, playing fun games, just talking over food just so normal. It's like, oh, we can just have this normal experience. Like other parents. And I kind of started thinking about, we talked about this a little bit, but I started thinking about like, this is a really elite club. It is the elite club that nobody wishes that they would ever get to be a part of. But I think the statistics are around 12% of young people between the age and of 12 and 24 struggle with substance use, whether that's diagnosed, undiagnosed, whatever. It's actually probably higher, but let's just call it 12%. That's a pretty elite club, right? Like not everybody gets to
Cathy: 6:01
Oh yeah.
Brenda: 6:01
our, in our world. So we try to make these experiences really amazing because. It's either like, yeah, I'm in this 12% and it really sucks all the time, or, well, I am in this 12%, but man, here's a really cool group of people that I get to hang out with as a result. Cuz we would've never gotten to hang out with the women that we were with ever.
Cathy: 6:25
Well, that's just it. And we talked about that. We thought our paths would've never crossed before. And so it's just, it's so exciting cuz really these moms came from all over the United States, which was pretty spectacular. And, and then to come to find out that some of these moms that came from similar areas live really close to each other. And so now they've got, You know, someone right in their own backyard to be with and reach out to go for a walk in their local neighborhood. And I think that's great too. Um, I, I love that we can offer this to our moms and I agree. I wish this was around back then too. Um, but I'm loving on it now cuz this is just great and I feel really fortunate that we got to share this special time with these 13 other moms, 14 with myself. It was great.
Brenda: 7:19
Yeah, it was very cool. And I think, you know, we have a very strong Northern California contingent of mothers. And I think the eastern seaboard might be competing soon to get their own group within the stream. Cuz it's like they're, they're kicking butt over there. So I think it's pretty cool. yeah, they're on it. Talk about cool moms,
Cathy: 7:41
They're on it.
Brenda: 7:41
We got super
Cathy: 7:42
For sure. I'm super excited to offer them their group too. I think that's so great that they want to, uh, get bonded together cuz Yes, our Northern California moms group is pretty big and it's great too. So let's do it.
Brenda: 7:56
awesome. Let's do it. Let's do it. So if you're listening and you live on the East coast and you wanna be part of the elite group, just join us. You can come and join us. Um, okay. So, yeah, it was super fun. Um, and oh, last thing I wanted to say about that is that I heard several times from several of the moms that it felt so good to have permission to be having so much fun because we do get into that mode where it's like, oh my gosh, everything's really serious, really hard, and you don't feel like you should have fun. And I remember At one point, I can't remember what I was doing, but I was actually doing something a little fun and somebody saw me and I thought, oh, how is this gonna look? They know my son is really struggling and I'm out here like having such a great time. I think it was at like a concert or something, and that's good. You need to do that. So I just kept hearing that. Yeah, I kept hearing that from the mom saying, oh my gosh, it's so nice just to have fun. And it's okay to have fun. It's like, yeah, it's a gift you're giving yourself and your family to have so much fun.
Cathy: 9:09
And you know, I think that our kids like when we have fun too, because that's the difference is that, our kids know we're struggling and they know when we're having a really hard time because they're having a hard time and we love them so much and care for them. And so for us to be able to go out. And give that gift to ourselves of that self-care. our kids wanna see that they really, really do. Our families wanna see that
Brenda: 9:38
absolutely. Well, that kind of actually is a good segue into our topic, is enmeshment,
Cathy: 9:46
en management.
Brenda: 9:48
yeah, which really goes along with boundaries and natural consequences. It's sort of like a It's like a combo of topics, but this is something that. I think I experienced for sure. I'm guessing you probably did too, to some degree. And we see it all the time in our community, especially for moms. We're not in the, the dad's community day to day, so we don't see that. I know this also happens with dads for sure. but we wanted to talk about it because it's actually one of those things that, it's, fixable. It's like one of those things you can actually really work on if you're aware of it and really work to fix it and, and see some pretty incredible results. So, we'll tackle that. I will say upfront, we are not therapists, so do not take this as therapeutic advice. Um, that's why you have really brilliant therapists to go to. But, we, we observed this and we lived it, and so we think it's really important to talk about. So, what we're talking about in measurement, let me just set up, let me just set a baseline of what we're
Cathy: 10:53
let's say what an enmeshment really is exactly.
Brenda: 10:57
It's really that, situation where family members are so close to each other that it's hard for. A family member to establish a level of independence that would be considered healthy by, let's say a family therapist, a personal therapist, um, or a mental health professional. So there's a certain amount of autonomy and independence that we all need to feel good and to live a healthy life. And that can often get really blurred with a parental relationship. So that's what we're talking about when we talk about enmeshment. Did you struggle with this?
Cathy: 11:37
Oh so much that saying of you're only as happy as your least happiest child. I, I was that, and I, I still often struggle today with that. honestly, uh, I think that, you know, when things are going great and the kids are happy, Yeah, it's, it's great. I find myself not thinking about every little detail of their lives, but you know, when one of 'em are struggling, then you think, oh gosh, and, you know, they come into your, your mind a bit more. and so it is, it is a struggle just to think about that, but also to know that my actions are important during that time. Am I reaching out all the time? I've definitely gotten a lot better than I was. When my kids were really struggling. I was all in their lives, all in their lives, doing whatever I could. I won't go too much into detail about that, but I think, you know, and I think those listening will know I, it was a lot harder.
Brenda: 12:39
when we talk about doing the work and when all the professionals that you're listening to talk about doing your own work, this is part of that. And what I realized when I started doing my own work was that I had done things like my son was diagnosed with a d d when he was in third grade. And you know, until then it had just been a battle with homework. Like him crying, me crying, and it got to the point where I would sort of look through his homework, this is in elementary school, look through his homework and say, okay, you do this and I'm gonna do this over here. Cuz this is so dumb. Like they're having you color in the number of teapots on the sheet or whatever in the, in the math class. And I'm thinking, this is the stupidest thing. This kid has a d d, he can't focus and he's gotta learn all of these spelling words or whatever. So this is kind of what we're talking about, is just weaving your lives together to where it's like us as a team. And I'm not saying it's not, I'm not saying it's bad to be a team with your kid, obviously, but when, when you are doing the homework or things like that where you're really, you have blurred the lines so much that you really don't know where. They end and you begin, and we talk about this about kind of being in their back pocket, like you are in your kids' back pocket, whether they're 26 and live away from you, or if they're 15 and they live with you, you're constantly in their back pocket, whether that's like texting all day every day or constant checking in. So this isn't one of those things that just starts with. A substance use problem, this is something that starts way earlier. and I think also really, you know, treating your child as more of a friend. This would obviously be in the younger ages cuz hopefully as they're independent adults, we do get to be friends with them. But in the younger years, You know, when they're your friend and you're confidant and the person that you go to when you're struggling and, they're sort of acting as your therapist. it's just not a healthy sort of division of emotions. and also being in really so overly involved in their achievements. We've talked about this where we hear a lot, well, We, we just got accepted into X, y, Z college or we just graduated from high school or you know, it's always we and not them. Not my child, not my
Cathy: 15:03
Right. Our, our team won the soccer, championship or, we're going to the finals or whatever that is. Agree. And, and think about that. I mean, that happens, whether your child is struggling or not. We see it a lot and the lines are blurred then, right. Was it really you that was playing in that soccer game? Were you the one playing in that soccer game that were you really just on the sidelines cheering them on? Right. And so what is that distinction?
Brenda: 15:33
I think being really emotionally invested in the outcomes of their.
Cathy: 15:37
Yes.
Brenda: 15:38
activities and their, you know, achievements. And if they don't get into this college, then we take it as a personal failure or if they, whatever it is, we're just really so tied together with them and, I mean, I am just so, so guilty of this. I did this for so long and, It's really tricky and it's also, I think, interesting, and this is where you need a therapist, is that you can be like this with one child, but not both of your children or all, all of your children. Or maybe there's, right. It's like, why am I like this with this one, but not with this one.
Cathy: 16:16
That's so true. That's so true. I hear you. I don't know if this ever happened with you. For me, it's like, oh, for a certain amount of time I would be super enmeshed in one kid's life. And maybe it was because when. they were struggling. One didn't seem to be struggling as much, so that's where I was really enmeshed in one. And then, oh no, the other one went and, you know, if you had to do both at the same time, it was really tough. so anyway, I'm super glad that we're talking about this, this topic. It's, it's just so important and it's something that we do sometimes we're aware and sometimes we're not aware that we're doing this, and it really does make a difference in our family relationships.
Brenda: 16:55
right. I did a email once about the near enemy, like near enemies of emotions, and I I'm gonna see if I can get this right. The near enemy of caring like we think. Oh, I'm so caring. I'm like with me doing the coloring, the stupid teapots on the math problem in fifth grade. I am thinking at the time that I'm being so caring and I'm like, of course he doesn't need to do this. And so I'm taking on all of that for him, right? And so, We can think that we are being this really great, attentive parent and really helpful and well, I know he really struggles with this, so I'm just gonna go ahead and, and do it for him, or I know she's really busy and I know that she would really appreciate having this food made when she gets home, right? And so we go ahead and we do it. And those are things that it can be really tricky to say. Mm. Is this like, In Meshk or is this being helpful? and there's an example that we have talked about recently where I shared that one of my kids really struggles with booking airline tickets. So this is here. If you're looking for a real world example, here is a real world example. This, we're not talking theory here, right, because we're not therapist. But here's a real world example like, I have a kid who really struggles with booking flights. Of course, they're always doing it on their phone, right? They never use a computer. I have to have my like 17 inch screen to book a flight cuz it is tricky. They're always doing it on their phone. And so here's the difference. In the past, if there was a flight that needed to be booked, I would just say, What day do you need to be there, blah, blah, blah. And the assumption on both of our parts was that I would go ahead and book it. So what day do you need to be there? Or even worse, I would say, here's the day you need to be there. Here's the day you need to leave. Here's the time you need to get there. Here's the time you need to leave. And also what's your school schedule? Because if you get back here, then you're gonna need, right? Like, and I am managing all of that. And then I would book the flight. So I would say that's a fairly enmeshed. Situation. Again, we're not therapists, so take it for what it is not healthy. Let's just put it that way. It's not healthy. Now, where we have landed with this task is I have said if you need any help booking a flight, let me know. And sometimes he will, and sometimes he won't. And so now if he says, you know what, mom, I'm super busy. I'm really distracted. I, I just don't have time or the capacity to do this. Could you please book this flight? Here's where I need to be at this time. So we've shifted the relationship to a point where, you know, that could be my apparent or a spouse or somebody else saying, oh, hey, could you help me out with this? Versus me just taking it over as like the default mode of here's how this works. Does that make sense?
Cathy: 20:07
that actually make sense? And you almost think of it as you're, you're not the one driving the car now, right? You're not the one at the steering wheel. So, um, I agree. And I think, that says a lot about your child actually coming forth too and saying, I'm tired, I'm distracted, I've got a lot going on. And to me, those are the help words, right? Those are the words that are to say, Yeah. Of course I'm happy to help you. Or what would you like from me? Can you show me three different flights that I can take? Or whatever that is. I love that. I think that's just the difference is that you are not driving that, you're collaborating together, I guess you could say. You know? and it's not like you're sitting there expecting him to fail either. Right. No one wants that.
Brenda: 20:56
And that's a teeny tiny example, but you know, I've talked before about the example of, me tending to go, like I would pay for a lawyer, you know, if my son got in trouble or whatever. And when I didn't do that, that was became a real source of pride for him, that he paid for the lawyer. first of all, he found the lawyer and then he paid for the lawyer. And that was such a, a way for him to build some self-confidence and really find pride in himself that if I had done it, it would've really robbed him of that experience. So, I think that's just a, a. Practical example. I think another one, and I still struggle with this, I gotta have the lip chip, um, that we talk
Cathy: 21:38
Uh,
Brenda: 21:40
is not guilting our kids into doing things that we want them to do. This is a hard one because as they get older and they get more independent, you know, I have one who frequently talks about moving, like overseas, you know, moving to London or moving to whatever. And my first in instinct is to say, oh, but I'm gonna miss you. Like, oh, but I wanna have coffee in the morning with you and da da. And it's like, mm, I can't guilt him. Into doing what I want for my emotional needs, cuz that's, that's meeting a need for me. And so I think that's a super common one.
Cathy: 22:24
Oh, I so identify with this one and I. Oh my gosh, it, when I think about this, I used to always respond like that. Really? Really, you know, and I had to catch myself and I, I get my husband a lot of credit because he even said, why are you responding? You know, the plans are gonna change 10 million times before whatever happens, happens. And I thought, oh my gosh, she's right. So I used to respond a lot. and I realized too that this was, I, I'm sure it's enmesh actually, is that sometimes I think my kids would actually throw something out to see how I would react, you know? And Yeah. you know, it takes a lot, you know, like you're right, the lip clip, like. we think of a chip clip and we think this thing on our lips is gonna stop us from talking. But it really is true just to have that pause when they say something and you know, just to say, wow, that sounds really great. Tell me more about that. But, I think truly in the end, what we all want is our kids just to be super happy and successful wherever they are. And, I think the guilty thing can get in the way of that. We do it accidentally. We don't mean to do it. maybe you do mean to do it and if you do that, that's definitely look into that. Right.
Brenda: 23:43
Yeah. Yeah. The
Cathy: 23:45
therapy. Therapy.
Brenda: 23:47
And there's a spectrum to all of this, right? There could be extreme, extreme enmesh that is super unhealthy and super dysfunctional. And then there's the ones that we ki I kind of, where I feel like I am right now, which is I can catch myself and, back to the example of the moving. If he says something about that, I can catch myself and say, wow, that sounds so exciting. Like, that would be so exciting for you. Inside my mama heart is kind of breaking a little bit, right? Because I'm like, no, I don't want you to move across the world. That's going to be terrible. But I can be genuinely excited for him and know that that's my work to do, is to fill up my heart with other stuff. And so that I can also be happy myself if he does move across the world. We talked about this when we were in our little Airbnb after the conference, And this is if you have older kids, obviously, but there becomes this period of time in our lives as moms. So if you're dad listening, I think, I don't know, is there like a menopause? I feel like there's a, a male equivalent of menopause. but I think you get to this age where your kids are maybe, you know, late teens, early twenties, and life looks really weird. Like you're going through all this. Chemical weirdness with menopause and, I don't know, menopause too. Maybe you have some kind of big decisions to make about career often. Right? you're often starting to have an empty nest or you do have an empty nest and you might be looking at that other person who happens to live in your house with you, and you're like, wait a minute. 30 years ago we were madly in love and now like, who are you again? What's your name? So there's a lot of that going on, and I think sometimes it can be easier to stay really focused on the kids. Oh, but he needs me. Oh, but I gotta do this. Oh, but now he's moving here and I have to help him do that. Or, oh, she's, you know, Whatever. And it's so easy to distract ourselves with a kid, especially if you've got one who really does need a lot of help. Like if you have a kid struggling with substance use, they do need a lot of help. So it's a really easy and natural, distraction to pull ourselves away from thinking about all of the other things that are really hitting us in the face, in our. Let's call it early fifties, mid fifties. You're like, Ooh, life is looking weird, and I have to sort that out. So again, not from a therapeutic standpoint, but just like reality. Right?
26:25
That's reality. And I think many of us in that generation too, are also dealing with elderly parents, and so it, it really is so much, right? They cost the sandwich generation, you've got elderly parents and you've got young ones at home or young adults. and I think also this complication too is that, our young people are still living with us, right? Even though, some are out and about in the world, but the reality is, is a lot of our young adults are living with us for whatever reason. so I think it's, it is complicated, and recognizing that giving yourself some grace, but I think it's just important to ask yourself some questions. Around all of this and to find out your motivation for why you do certain things, and, ask yourself, is this for me or for the betterment of your child?
Brenda: 27:21
So this is where I lost Kathy, unfortunately. But you know, in my example of this, I really had to ask myself, is this for me? You know, is this because I don't want my kid to move? Or can I be really happy for him that he has this opportunity? And so I think that there's a good filter question that we can ask if we pause when we're in one of these situations and say, is what I'm about to do or say, going to move them toward independence. Or is this gonna move them closer to being dependent upon me? Is this really moving them in the right direction? And that's a tough question to ask because sometimes it feels really good to have them be dependent on us. but sometimes they need to be able to just turn and do it on their own and even lean emotionally onto someone else, um, that we might not be the right person. So if you have a tendency to do this, and I think we all do to some degree, you can either work through it with a therapist if you are working with somebody, which we highly recommend that you do, and um, talk through it with them, because it's pretty important to make sure that our kids gain the independence that they need run through that filter, right? It's a great filter. Is this moving them toward independence or moving them closer to me? And family systems therapy can be great for this because not only is this, you know, you, but it's also your child is in the mix, right? If you're enmeshed, then they're right there with you. So it's gonna take a little bit of work to, un unstick to each other. It's kind of like, I think of it like a quilt. And you have to undo the quilt a bit so that you can get free of each other, and it's a little hard. It's definitely a little hard. You also wanna think about their age and their abilities. And this can be tricky because where I got tripped up with this in particular is that because my son started using substances at a fairly young age, um, around 13, 14, even when he was then, you know, 18 or 19 in chronological years. He was not there from a developmental or maturity standpoint. So you do have to look at that, and that's not any excuse to be enmeshed by any means, but it's just a reminder that we sometimes need to look at where they are emotionally, developmentally. If they started using when they were pretty young, and your help might look a little different than it would if you were dealing with a person of the same age who had not been using substances because there really is some delay in their brain. Kathy had a really good point about the fact that it's okay to ask our kids what do they need? You know, what do you need help with? and it really goes back to if you were having the conversation or if you were in that situation with a friend or a spouse or even maybe your own parent, you would ask them, what can I help you with? Or What do you need some extra support on? Because we tend to like, think of it as a science project when your kids were younger and in school and they came to you and said, mom, I need some help. And we go and we make that. Simple science project into like a gigantic project with all kinds of, bells and whistles. And really what they just needed was a job of glue to put something on. So sometimes we can just tend to overdo it because we have this vision of how we want it to be, and we want it to be perfect. So, Just asking, Hey, how can I help? Do you need some help with this? And what would that look like? Um, and then to be able to just step back and accept what it is or isn't, and there's a good chance that even though you can tell they do need help, they're not gonna ask you for it. And that's super tricky. So I think we've probably all had situations. Kathy and I were talking about funny ones with. Our kids, our teens asking us how to address an envelope because that's something that they just don't do. Or how to write a check. And it can be really easy to just jump in and like do it for them versus say, I don't know, you know, maybe you can figure that out. There's Google, there's lots of different resources for that. so I did mention enmesh and boundaries and natural consequences and how those are all woven together. And if you pull away from the enmeshment, if you let them stumble and let them figure stuff out on their own, you are creating boundaries, really healthy boundaries. As long as you sort of let them know in advance that that's what you're gonna be doing. So you're not just leaving them high and dry. Cuz if you've been in mesh for a long time and then boom, you're out. That could be a little startling. So just let them know, Hey, I'm gonna be stepping back. There's stuff that you can do. I've been doing it for you and I really don't need to do that anymore. So you, you are creating boundaries in that. And then if you are doing that, you are gonna have to watch the natural consequences happen. And I talk about this a lot. It's really hard because. When you can fast forward and see what could potentially happen with a natural consequence, it's difficult not to step in. And so when you're trying to be a little bit more independent of each other, those are some of the things that you're just gonna have to watch out for. So asking yourself, how can I step back? Like, what does that actually look like for me? Um, that might be picking up a hobby that you've left behind. It might be getting together with friends more regularly or for me for a while. I was just so. In it with my son that I had to start actually leaving the house or getting in the shower in the mornings to prevent myself from getting him outta bed, getting him ready for school, you know, all the things that, he needed to be doing for himself. So think about ways that you can either distract yourself or, just take on something new so that you are making projects out of other things. Other than just that one child, or maybe there's multiple kids that you're doing this with. And when we do this, what's great about it is it allows our kids to start to have some success, and it allows them to have pride in doing the things that we have potentially been stepping in and doing for them. And so, It's gonna be really great when they start to really master these executive functioning skills that maybe we have been doing for them. So it's gonna be really hard for them to be successful if they haven't had to do it. And so this can be a little bit of a rocky time. And I can say though, after having done it, that to watch the pride and satisfaction on their face when they do something that either we've always done. Or that they just assumed they couldn't do. It's pretty awesome. So that is what we wanted to share today. I'm so sorry that we lost Kathy. She had big internet problems and just completely dropped off. And so I'm just wrapping this up for the last couple of minutes and just know that as you work on this, you're really setting your your child up for success and that is great, but paradoxically, to do that, We have to let them go. So try to get untangled. Try to undo the quilt a little bit and just know that you can do it. Connect with another parent who's working on this. You can join us in the stream or the woods to do it, along with others who are doing it with kids with substance use issues, cuz that adds an extra layer of complexity. But I'm really glad we got to talk about it today. I'd love to ask you to do one quick thing before we sign off, and that is, if you enjoy this podcast, if you would go into your podcast player, whether that's in Apple or Spotify, or Audible or Google, and just tap the stars to rated it. That allows other people to see that people are listening and engaged in the podcast. And you'll be helping another parent who is in a difficult time to find the podcast. So if you're in Apple in particular, you're gonna go to the main page of Hope Stream and then just scroll down and you'll see the stars. And it also gives you an option to write a little review. So if you do listen and enjoy it and get something out of it, that would mean the world to me. That is it for today. If you'd like to get a transcript for the show, there's always a transcript at the show notes page, which is at brenda zane.com/podcast. You can either scroll and find the episode that you're looking for, or you can always just do a search and type in a person's name. You can type in a topic. And you can also find all of the resources that we've mentioned in the episodes there as well. And if you haven't downloaded my free ebook yet, I'd invite you to do that. It's called Hindsight. Three things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs it'll give you some really good insight into why your child might be doing the things that they're doing, and there's some really great tips of things that I learned along the way that I so wish I would have known. It'll also give you great ideas on how you can navigate this in a healthier way to preserve yourself, your sanity and your wellbeing, which we all need. So that is at brenda zane.com/hindsight. As always, thank you so much for listening. Thank you for putting in the time and the work and the effort and energy into getting your family into a healthier place, and especially for your child, and I cannot wait to meet you right back here next week.