coaching episode: creative options to reduce anxiety and build confidence & independence post-high school and residential treatment
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@brendazane.com
Instagram: @the.stream.community
Guest: Lynn, The Stream Community Member
The Stream Community: The Stream is the online space that gives moms connection, hope and healing when their child is struggling with substance misuse, addiction and mental health challenges.
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podcast support from:
This episode is supported by The Stream. You might be wondering who else is listening to this podcast and dealing with the same kinds of issues you are. You may also want to go beyond the podcast and dive deeper into the subjects with other moms who get it.
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Being a member of The Stream gives you an even deeper connection beyond the podcast where you get to interact with amazing moms and me every day. So if you'd like to hang out with us after the episodes, you can learn more and join us at www.thestreamcommunity.com. The first two weeks are always free to see if we’re your kind of people, so there’s no risk to check us out. We’re waiting for you there.
episode resources
Failure to Launch: Why Your Twentysomething Hasn't Grown Up...and What to Do About It
Episode 51: Getting Kids Unstuck From Failure to Launch Mode
How to find a therapeutic educational consultant
The Parallel Process book:
Journey of The Heroic Parent book:
episode transcript
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[00:00:51] Hello and welcome. You are listening to hopes, dream. If you are parenting a teen or young adult child who is [00:01:00] experimenting with drugs and alcohol, or who's in active addiction in a treatment program or early recovery, you have found yourself in the right place. I am Brenda Zane, your host, and a mom who's been there.
[00:01:14] So take a minute, exhale, know that you are in really good company and that this is your place to come, where you can just soak up some support and understanding. You can get really great information. And if you want to learn more about me and the work I do to serve parents, like you, you can go to my website, Brenda, za.com.
[00:01:40] yay. We have a new coaching episode today. These are really my favorite to do because you get to drop directly into the living room or kitchen or bedroom, or sometimes the closet of someone who is in the thick of it with their child. And we [00:02:00] just work through whatever happens to be going on in that moment.
[00:02:03] So it's kind of a wild ride. Like there's no filter, there's no planning or prep work or anything, um, that we've done. So you get to just roll with us on this ride. And today you'll hear from Lynn. She is, moming a newly minted 18 year old high school graduate who has had some struggles. He was hit pretty hard by COVID and all the challenges that, that brought two kids from a mental health perspective and from a substance use perspective.
[00:02:37] I think what's interesting too, is you're gonna hear the very real ways that families and young people in particular were impacted by how treatment restrictions happened during COVID. And so that was a very real and present factor in Lynn's family's life. There is a lot going [00:03:00] on with this situation and I love how Lynn just really gracefully articulated her son's struggles, his strengths, and how open she is to try new things.
[00:03:13] It is always a good sign to me when somebody kind of lights up and says, yeah, I think I could try that. Or, yeah, that makes sense. I can see how that could potentially work for us rather than yeah. I tried that it didn't work. Yeah, I did that. It didn't work either. You know, when somebody is just closed to new ideas, And that's really key.
[00:03:36] If you're in a place where you feel stuck, like nothing is changing. You're in a cycle of starts and stops and starts and stops. Take a look at how open you are to experimenting with new things. Just think about them as information gathering adventures, because if you do it with that frame of mind, you're [00:04:00] gonna be less inclined to get so emotionally wrapped up in them.
[00:04:04] Because if you do get really emotionally invested in a new approach or a new option, and then it doesn't go well, which is often the case, it can be pretty devastating. So just think of plain detective and see what you learn again. I want to thank Lynn for her vulnerability to share part of her family's journey with you.
[00:04:28] So you might also be able to pick up some learnings. You can hear her thoughts and questions. And hopefully you'll come away feeling less alone in this whole thing. Maybe you'll even have some new things to try. All right. Take a listen, and I'll see you on the other side. Lynn. It's so lovely to see you today and have a few minutes to talk.
[00:04:54] I've loved getting to know you a little bit in the community and in our meditation mornings, you're like the most [00:05:00] dedicated meditation attendee of the whole community. I love it.
[00:05:06] Lynn: I I've gotten some free coaching from you during those a few extra minutes, one on one with you. So I've appreciated
[00:05:13] Brenda: that it's been wonderful.
[00:05:15] And I'm so glad that we're doing this. I know you have a lot going on cuz we've chatted here and there, but again, it's just so, um, generous of you and the other members who allow me to record these. Because a lot of people don't have an option for coaching, actually, they do. And I will tell you how you can get free coaching, but I think it's just one of those things.
[00:05:38] First of all, people might be like, well, what would that accomplish? Or how would I go about it? So I really appreciate you being, um, vulnerable and willing to do this with me. But again, this is really about you. And what I thought we could do is just start out. If you wanna give us just a, a quick snapshot of you and [00:06:00] your family and kind of where you are today, as much as you're wanting to share so that we can sort of ground ourselves in, like, what is the situation here?
[00:06:09] Okay,
[00:06:09] Lynn: sure. So I am the mom of two boys. I have a just turned. 18 year old, I guess I shouldn't call him a boy anymore. I am the mom of a young adult who just turned 18. And then, uh, I have a 13 year old boy as well. I'm also the mom, uh, stepmom too, um, an adult daughter, but she doesn't live with us, but she definitely plays a important role family.
[00:06:40] And I married to my husband and we live in Northern California. What brought me to the stream was my, uh, just turned 18 year old high school graduate. And if you want me to give you a little background on how we got to where we are today. Sure. I'm happy to. Sure. Yeah. [00:07:00] So my son is, you know, very, um, calm, compliant, temperament overall, and had, um, learning challenges and difficulties in school growing up.
[00:07:15] Took us a long time to get him diagnosed with, uh, inten of type ADHD, as well as just some kind of generalized learning disorders. And around the age of, uh, eight, 10, we were able to finally get him on a 5 0 4 plan, which moved to an I E I E P plan at school. And he participated in resource classes throughout the years.
[00:07:44] And school just didn't come easy for him socially. There was no, um, issues for him that came really easy making friends, and he was never quote unquote, a problem student. He was always, teachers would always [00:08:00] rave about him being, you know, super compliant and polite looking back. It's almost like to a fault because that really, um, you know, we start identify that that really tied in.
[00:08:14] His inability to self advocate for himself. And that's just been a running theme for him. And I think that carried over strongly into the, and particularly high school years, as, as the expectations for him to self advocate became more and more, and he became less and less confident in his ability to do that.
[00:08:39] He, um, really, you know, was doing quite well until I would say 15 and 15 came along and things went a little sideways with, um, some friends. This is also, I don't think a coincidence when social media came into his life. At that [00:09:00] time, it was just Instagram. But all of a sudden this big world opened up. I wouldn't say that.
[00:09:09] We always really protected him. I've stayed home since my son was four. Uh full-time and went part-time when he turned about a year. So, uh, you know, I've been home we've were involved parents and I've always, you know, volunteered at the school and known his friends and his teachers. And around that age of 15, when his world started expanding with new people, new friends, um, this is also the time when, you know, like I said, social media took off as well as all the, you know, vaping was becoming more prevalent.
[00:09:49] And the end of his freshman year, we caught him vaping and it seemed to really scare him and rattle him. And it was really more a peer pressure thing, [00:10:00] but I think he kind of hesitated to, to continue down that path. But. A year later, there was just this perfect storm. It was, um, the year of COVID and all of a sudden, you know, the world shut down and school shut down.
[00:10:23] School was hard enough for him when he was going in person. And now he was expected to navigate everything online, be really self disciplined at home. And it was extremely tough. And I think it was just a perfect storm between his age and, um, the influences that were coming at him from different directions, just the, the situation of the, the lockdown for such an extended time.
[00:10:52] And at that time too, his friends group changed and he ended up with a, uh, [00:11:00] really completely different group of friends that he'd never had before. He. It's funny. My son always was into skateboarding and I remember when he was little and getting into that world and, and friends and family were always, well, you know what those skateboarders are like, and you better watch out.
[00:11:20] And we ended up, you know, our family, my husband, and I really getting him in contact with some really good local skateboarding organizations that were doing great things in the community and holding camps for kids to learn how to skate and, you know, overall just a really clean, upstanding group of guys.
[00:11:45] And it was with that group that, you know, my son really did the best and flourished and had great friendships and support. And when he veered away from that skateboarding [00:12:00] community is actually when the problems started kind of bust all the myths of, you know, what a skateboarding community is supposed to consist of.
[00:12:09] And, uh, at that time we didn't UN we didn't know, but, um, he started experimenting with, um, drinking and he became basically a, a binge alcoholic drinker immediately. And we didn't know, but spent that, um, summer his, um, 16 turning 17 year old summer, um, drinking, excessively, passing out, blacking out, um, getting violently ill.
[00:12:51] Um, I'm amazed. He made it home at some of those nights. And it's, it's crazy to think [00:13:00] that this was really happening under our noses because it was COVID all of a sudden my husband was home. I mean, we're it just blow my mind how well he was able to hide it. And, um, I think, and we knew something, you know, some things were going on.
[00:13:15] We figured his friends were partying a little bit, but in no way, did I know the extent of it? Um, and how, you know, he's really lucky to be alive when I'm looking back at some of the videos we uncovered on his phone, he got scared and tried to wean himself off alcohol and do it on his own. He never talked to us about it.
[00:13:45] I think it was very difficult for him. I think he had withdrawals. And so he quickly went back. At that time he was this entire time seeing a therapist as well. He'd [00:14:00] been seeing a therapist for well over a year, but again, because it was COVID, they weren't meeting in person anymore. So they were, um, you know, connecting over the phone.
[00:14:11] And I think boy, these kids can do a really slick job of how they're presenting themselves over the phone. And I later found out of like some very specific, you know, appointments they had where he was, you know, high or drunk, and that therapist didn't know truly didn't know. And that that's scary. that's scary.
[00:14:41] Yeah. It's interesting because we weren't that wasn't our issue. What I did know is I did know, he looked, he was looking physically really thin. My son has always struggled in the area of eating. He's been quote unquote, a picky eater, and [00:15:00] over the years I've gone to, you know, every well check we have with him at the pediatrician.
[00:15:06] I always say he's, you know, he's super low on the charts with the weight and the BMI and compared to his peers. And it was always just chopped up too. He'll grow out of it. He'll grow out of it. So around that time, when he was looking really thin to me, I started pursuing, um, a little bit digging in a little deeper to see if I could get him help with eating.
[00:15:32] He was eating. So it wasn't like, um, an anorexia anorexia. It was, um, he eats, if somebody were, describe it to me or asked me to describe it, I'd say he has the, he it's like a menu of a toddler. Mm. Like pallet has not. Yeah. I was fortunate enough to connect with a therapist, um, that I wasn't seeking for that for [00:16:00] something else.
[00:16:00] I started describing his eating behaviors for her and she stopped. She stopped the direction we were going. And she said, I think I've just diagnosed your son with ARFI. And ARFID is an eating disorder that, um, isn't, you know, you, don't not a lot of people know about it. That's the first time I heard of it.
[00:16:22] And when I researched it, I realized that's exactly what he has. That's what he's had. And now what do we do? I felt such relief because somebody validated, right, right. My, my suspicions. And it, it was interesting because these themes come, keep coming up for me as a parent and my son and I, and our relationship because I advocated.
[00:16:47] For so long to get him, um, assessed within the school district, because I felt like he had some learning differences and I felt like there was a reason why he was unable to keep up [00:17:00] with other peers in the classroom and that it seemed to create so much anxiety for him to, to keep up and so fighting to get that diagnosis was just insane.
[00:17:13] Um, when he was an infant, he had, uh, difficulty, he was a premature baby. He had difficulties eating fighting to get that diagnosed that he had, um, GERD. So the reflux, yeah. Which by the way, I think all ties back to his current eating disorder because he learned from a very, you know, literally from infancy that when you eat it hurts.
[00:17:38] Yeah. Eating is not fun. Eating is bad, eating hurts. And um, so. Lots of things going on. We started treating him on a outpatient model for his eating disorder. Again, this is COVID. So we're doing everything over the phone, over zoom. He had a nutritionist, [00:18:00] he had a doctor at Stanford and he had a therapist and the program was really quite effective and he responded really well.
[00:18:09] He was extremely compliant. He started gaining weight. You could tell some of the brain fog was going away for him. The light was coming back into his eyes. We were really making progress. And that was just in a matter of like two, three months. However, at that two, three month marker is when we realized that he also had a drinking problem and that was happening simultaneously.
[00:18:37] And that's when everything just spiraled. So we couldn't, uh, at that time, I, this was, uh, like, um, November of 2020 in November of 2020. I didn't know what outpatient meant. I didn't know what an I, Oop was. I didn't know what PHP was. I didn't know what a RPC was. I didn't know what wilderness [00:19:00] was. I'd heard about wilderness, cuz that gets a lot of bad press.
[00:19:04] And I thought that is for the who in the world. Right? What kind of parent would do that? What kind of parent would do that? Well, fast forward three months later, and that was on the table for us. It was UN it was unbelievable how fast we were thrown into this world. What, um, what we struggled with was the fact that he had a, this eating disorder and so a lot of therapy places wouldn't take him.
[00:19:34] because of the, um, he wasn't medically stable. Yeah. Then you had, again, here comes COVID again, everybody's full. Yeah, because the world's melting down and there's no room. And even when you get room, by the way, you can't come in person, you're gonna do it over zoom and . And so we had several challenges to overcome.
[00:19:57] He ended up starting [00:20:00] to really vape excessively and then start smoking weed. Um, the drinking started tapering off, but it was more his behavior. It was just so disrespectful. It, he was a different person. Very, you know, he's not an aggressive guy, he's he doesn't, he's not mouthy, but those, those behaviors were emerging.
[00:20:26] Those, um, lots of angry outbursts. and then he'd come home drunk and he'd cry and cry and cry in our arms, like a little baby, you know, and let it all out. And that's when we learned that he'd recently, um, been sexually assaulted and hadn't told us it's when we learned he'd been physically assaulted and beat up.
[00:20:56] Um, hadn't told us it's [00:21:00] when we learned and he showed us his arms and he had been self-harming. And when he showed us the drawings in his art book of pictures, of him, you know, doing horrible things to himself, and clearly we had no idea how horrible he felt about himself and that he, he truly hated himself.
[00:21:25] so we really started looking at, you know, mental health support places for him, but then the minute I'd say to them, well, he is smoking and he is drinking and they'd say, well then that's we just do mental health? And then I'd say, well, he does have the eating disorder and they'd say, oh, we can't help you with that hindsight.
[00:21:47] I would've hired an, uh, educational consultant. We did not do that. It came at us so fast and I didn't, I didn't [00:22:00] know all the options. Yeah. And when somebody mentioned having this person,
[00:22:07] Brenda: this unicorn person
[00:22:09] Lynn: yeah. And then I think we did talk to one and then she told me how much it costs and I thought, oh, my word.
[00:22:18] Well, I can do this research on myself, you know, myself little did I know looking back, we should have done the educational consultant because I, I believe she would've funneled us. He or she would've funneled us to wilderness, which we didn't do. We didn't do wilderness. Cuz at that time, it, with my limited knowledge again, where the EC would've come in handy, I just felt wilderness was so extreme.
[00:22:46] Right? Yeah. It just seemed, you know, so extreme. Yeah. You know, the best I could come up with with my limited knowledge and resources on my own was a residential treatment center [00:23:00] here in Northern California. And I, um, talked with them. I got scared. We lost our spot. I was, I naively thought things would improve.
[00:23:12] It was the holidays. I couldn't imagine sending him away. At all, let alone over the holidays. Right. And of course, you know, my therapist was whispering in my ear that I was meeting with every week, you know, this, this probably, uh, isn't going to resolve itself on its own. You're probably going to have to get your thing, get your, you know, ducks in a row.
[00:23:41] Something, some decisions will need to be made some more intense form of therapy. I don't, I don't know what that looks like for you, mom, but so that's, you know, that's kind of where we were and we realized quickly after the, after the first of the [00:24:00] year we, we were out of options, but getting to that decision, Ugh.
[00:24:06] I just, I mean, I, I, this, in retrospect it was fast, right? It was like a three month ramp up of this bef when we found out he was, you know, like really drinking in October to when he went in January. But in that amount of time, I really struggled. And I remember calling and talking to the residential treatment over and over and over again and saying, you know, how, how would you, how is he gonna ever forgive me?
[00:24:38] How am I gonna explain this to him? He's never even gone away to summer camp. How I, I just, I couldn't get my head around it, but then you realize things are getting very bad and you no longer have the tools to support him. And I remember I had a long talk with my therapist and, and she suggested I write a letter [00:25:00] to him, which I did.
[00:25:01] And it. It basically basically explained because this was always his fear as well. You're gonna send me away. You're gonna send me away. That was always, when we would try to talk with him about where this all was headed, he would just say, you know, please don't send me away. Please don't send me away. So I knew it would be, and he was probably doing that to manipulate me.
[00:25:25] it worked. Right? Right. That's the bottom line is it worked right? It worked. And so I always had that in my head. This was the one thing he asked of me not to send him away.
[00:25:37] Brenda: Hello. I want to take just a minute to let you know that if you're a mom listening and you're having a hard time right now, with the impact from your child's substance use, there is a place I created specifically for you.
[00:25:50] It's called the stream. It's a membership based online community. It's completely private away from all social media sites where you start to take [00:26:00] care of yourself because through all of this who is taking care of you in the community, we teach skills to help you have better conversations and relat.
[00:26:10] And we help you get as physically, mentally, and spiritually as healthy as possible. So you can be even stronger for your son or daughter. There is a two week free trial, so you can see if it's the right kind of support for you. And you can learn more about all of the member benefits at the stream, community.com.
[00:26:30] I hope to see you there. Now let's get back to this amazing conversation
[00:26:41] Lynn: through working with my therapist, realize that, you know, I love you too much to let you to stand by and watch you hurt yourself physically and emotionally. I love you too much to let you go down this path that I don't think in [00:27:00] the end, you really intend to. Yeah, but you're just in a spot where you can't make that.
[00:27:07] Decision for yourself anymore. You know, I love you so much that, um, this is my gift to you to give you a chance. And when I was able to frame it for myself that way and reframe it as I'm doing this, you know, to, to save him and that we've really kind of burned through all the the homegrown strategies we have.
[00:27:39] Yeah. The toolbox is now empty. Yeah. And this is, this train is headed down the track and the wrong direction, what we do. And so this was really our last ditch thing. So he, uh, he was able to get a bed and we had it set up. They called me [00:28:00] like three days later and said, you know what, you've gotta take the bed tomorrow.
[00:28:05] Or it's gonna be another two weeks. And so we just turned on a dime and made it happen. And we drove him there the next morning. Wow. And he was, he was there for 60 days. Um, I think it was a great program and I, I definitely think it's a quality program. Like I said, in hindsight, I think wilderness would've been a good start for him.
[00:28:33] Yeah. And then stepped down to something like this. Yeah. But it did serve the purpose at the time and it disrupted where, you know, what he was doing and, you know, he was able to sober up and get clean. And the one really valuable thing about their program is that they have a pretty intense parent [00:29:00] program.
[00:29:00] So three to four evenings a week, every week we were on. Doing, um, either in a support group, uh, sessions, or we were doing workshops and learning. We had so many books to read and high, high parent involvement. Great. Some of it was watered down for us as parents and for him as a patient, um, because of COVID.
[00:29:28] Yeah. So he was there 60 days. And I think the other piece with coming home from an RTC is we were a little blindsided. I don't know if that's fair to say, but we really weren't prepared for the transition back home. And then what mm-hmm . And again, because I, I think most of the time you go wilderness to RTC, right?
[00:29:59] Maybe [00:30:00] home maybe. Yeah. Well this was just RTC home, right? and we had no idea that that was gonna be kind of a funky transition. And because of COVID when he got out still, so many people weren't accepting new patients, they weren't, they weren't seeing anybody face to face. So simply as a placeholder, because we just didn't have any options.
[00:30:27] He ended up participating in an I O P program, but it was over zoom. It was like every day. Yeah. Poor guy comes home. He's got a log on all these strangers. Yeah. And it really, even though the, the program got really good reviews and I, I talked to several people, it, it was not the right fit. It was really nothing like what they told us it was gonna be like, and that the parent [00:31:00] involvement portion was.
[00:31:02] zero. So we'd gone from really being involved to not being involved at all with his therapy, unless he wanted to share. And he wasn't real excited about that. So yeah, that, that I think is a tricky part. And it seems like a lot of people struggle with that as I'm still on a lot of the support groups, it seems like that transition home and the, the wraparound support at home is often is kind of where things start to unravel.
[00:31:36] It
[00:31:36] Brenda: is unfortunately. Yeah. And, and only magnified by COVID and, and those restrictions. So he's been home. I know he finished high school. He got over that line, which is incredible. And, and I do hope that you feel really good about that. I know that that did not come easily. [00:32:00] to say the least, um, where are you today?
[00:32:03] Where, how would you describe what's going on today?
[00:32:08] Lynn: So, um, things could be better and things could be worse. Yeah. I think, I think what's happened over the course of him being back home just over a little over a year is he seems to have grown out of some of those friends, uh, that. That he had been involved with so much parting with, he seems to have kind of grown apart from them.
[00:32:40] And I think he's finally with the little separation from them seeing maybe they weren't, um, not, I don't think he cares if they were a great influence, maybe just they were a little selfish or maybe in it for what they wanted. Yeah. I think [00:33:00] he's finally starting to see that in some of their personalities.
[00:33:05] And so he's backed off a lot from that group. Unfortunately, he hasn't replaced them with any other group. The one, you know, the good things that he's done since being home is he, um, has continued with individual and family therapy. We are gonna be taking a break from that, um, this summer and see how it goes.
[00:33:27] But he's chosen to take a break from that. We're allowing him to do that because he's 18. And I know we've talked a lot on here about what's really great for these kids is if they could get connected with more of a mentor, you know, he's been in therapy a long time. Yeah. And talk, talk therapy. Yeah. And he's sick of it.
[00:33:56] And I don't blame him, but I also know [00:34:00] he continues to need the support. Yeah. And the, the, you know, that objective person to bounce things off. Yeah. Do I think it needs to be in a talk therapy setting? No, I don't. I think actually more could be achieved if he had some kind of mentor kind of going out into the world with him.
[00:34:22] Yeah. And just kind of exploring different life paths and maybe doing some activities together. Like. get out in the world. So over the last, you know, year that he's been home, he has definitely the, um, depression, anxiety are still there really still there at a high high rate. Mm-hmm the, the risky, I don't believe that he has drank any alcohol since coming home.
[00:34:56] If he has, it was a very short [00:35:00] relapse and he got himself right back on track. He did not share that he has with us. Mm-hmm um, he also hasn't shared with me that he hasn't, but I have no reason to believe he has. Right. One of the stipulations that he gave us to upon release of RTC was that he intended to come home and immediately start vaping, nicotine again.
[00:35:22] Right. Which he did and which we wrote into the home contract as. You can't be like sitting around the kitchen table after dinner but yeah. We're also not gonna chase you down the street. Right. When you're walking the dog, if that's what you do, that's what you do. Right. We just, um, he announced last summer, three months after getting home, he was gonna start smoking pot again.
[00:35:48] And I suspect that that's also tapered off a little bit. Mm-hmm I know he's doing it, but I, I don't think it's playing as [00:36:00] significant of a role in his life anymore. Yeah. So I would say, you know, the drug use the drinking. That's all really at a manageable state. And my husband and I have done a lot of, uh, work on ourselves over the last six months, you know, getting our heads around.
[00:36:21] What does harm reduction look like? What could we live with? And. My, my stance is always kind of like, as long as you're getting your stuff done, if you wanna smoke in the evening before bed, but is it preventing you from getting up the next morning? Is it preventing from you from going to school or is it changing your, um, you know, the way you respond and react to other members of the family?
[00:36:51] Right. And the, the answer's no, he's, he's managing he's functioning in that respect. Fine. I do worry that [00:37:00] where he's buying it and who he's getting it from and what's in it. Yeah. And the potency and how much, and that it's not great for his, you know, still developing mind. Yeah. But I definitely don't see it ruling, you know, his life.
[00:37:18] I don't see his day. Being scheduled around it, which is great, which is good. Yeah. Yeah. Which is good. And I, I think really what his biggest challenge is right now is, is the mental health piece. For example, he's really isolating more than ever because he's kind of let go. Of some of these friends, many of these friends are moving away anyway.
[00:37:46] And so I think he's kind of using that as an excuse to say, well, they're all moving. They're all gonna be gone in two months. Anyway, that's almost like a protection barrier he's putting up on himself now [00:38:00] to say, I don't wanna get hurt when they go. Right. He's telling me it's because all they wanna do is party and take his stuff and use it and not pay him back.
[00:38:10] And, um, right. But he's starting to see too, you know, the only I notice the only time they invite me out is when they want. It's quote, unquote, something from me, right. Um, yeah. Yeah. And had, they've done some pretty manipulative stuff that he's, you know, that he's reluctantly shared with me, but has I have learned to keep my mouth shut and listen, not act horrified or shocked even though I am and yes.
[00:38:43] Try to really, you know, zip my lip and not give my opinions on these friends. Um, mm-hmm and it's in, which is
[00:38:54] Brenda: very good and very hard
[00:38:55] Lynn: to do. Very hard to do. And it's interesting [00:39:00] to, it's interesting to watch him come around on his own and say those same observations about these same particular guys. Yeah.
[00:39:13] But I know he's lonely, you know, the, the friends that he had prior. To this, um, kind of all kicking up for him. I think a lot of them have dumped him and, um, you know, there's some reputation stuff out there and I think he got labeled and I think he's, you know, there's so much shame with, and, and now with social media and kids share this online and it takes one post to have something go out and the whole community thinks you're something you are or are not, and you don't even have a chance to defend yourself.
[00:39:52] So right now it's just kind of like battling the anxiety and the depression and where do I fit in? Because now I'm [00:40:00] not, you know, for him, I've never been, I've never, I'm not this athletic kid. I'm not the academic school book kid. I'm not going to college kid. And now I realize I don't really wanna be a full party kid.
[00:40:15] Right. And a stoner kid who,
[00:40:19] Brenda: who,
[00:40:21] Lynn: who am I, where do I fit in and who wants to be my friend? So it's interesting. It's an interesting transition for him and for, and, and for us as parents.
[00:40:36] Brenda: Yeah. It's, it's a lot. And thank you for sharing that journey. Cause I think it's really helpful for people to hear the different ins and outs and the ups and the downs.
[00:40:47] And, um, the impact of COVID that I think not a lot of people who aren't like you living this day to day, haven't really understood the impact that COVID has [00:41:00] had on. The kids on the systems that are there to support the kids. Um, it's just so, so important. And it's, it's really hampered. I think a lot of the healing that could have happened with, with a lot of these kids.
[00:41:18] And I think you're really in tune to recognize the fact that he is struggling with that identity, who am I it's, it's a struggle that kids go through at this age anyway. Even if they, even if they are like, I'm the jock, I'm the brainiac, I'm the, whoever they still go through that. So when you've got somebody who doesn't fit in any of those buckets, it can, it's just even more amplified along with some of his mental health struggles.
[00:41:45] And I just wanna quickly ask, did his RTC, like, do you feel like the trauma of you talked about some sexual abuse, some physical, you know, um, beating up or [00:42:00] bullying that had gone on, do you feel like that was addressed? Because that in my, like, that's just sending up big red beacons to me that if that doesn't really get worked on that he could continue to struggle this anxiety and, and depression could really struggle.
[00:42:21] And some of those other coping mechanisms that he found in the past could come back maybe in the same form, maybe in a different form until that really gets addressed. So I'm wondering how you feel about where that is.
[00:42:36] Lynn: Yeah, that's a great, a great question to answer it. I don't. I can't say how well, or to the extent that it was addressed at the RTC.
[00:42:51] I don't think it's been addressed at all since coming home. Mm-hmm with, with him in [00:43:00] therapy. I think it was addressed at the RTC because at that point it's kind of like everything was out on the table. And I do recall, uh, you know, one of our therapy sessions, our weekly therapy sessions we'd have with him one time, it did come up and we talked to the therapist about it, and I know that they were talking through it, but I suspect for him, it's probably has not been dealt with.
[00:43:36] And it's kind of been buried for him.
[00:43:41] Brenda: Yeah, that's, that's the sense I get just from talking with you about it. And I know that he is the out and I get that a hundred percent also. However, that's one of those lingering things that we know [00:44:00] impacts their ability to move on. So it's like you can't go back and take that away.
[00:44:05] It happened, but he could add some tools to his tool belt that could help him deal with that so that he can feel like he can move on, kind of get out on his own, you know, start living that life that he really wants to live. So, you know, that's something that you'll have to, again, you know, you're a good researcher to find somebody and it could start with a mentor.
[00:44:33] It doesn't have to start with a therapist, but it could start with a mentor who you find. Who, you know, as you're working, most of the mentors that you're gonna find are going to be part of an, an organization. And if you let them know that they probably have a mentor who might have a similar experience so that he could relate in a peer relationship about that before he has to enter into a therapeutic relationship about it.
[00:44:59] Cuz I, [00:45:00] I, I have witnessed the rolling eyes, the like, ah, can't talk anymore. Like, and it's true when they've been through so much. So, but, but I would just encourage you to take thought on and, and really don't let that get buried. A lot of these other things could just be. Again, I'm not a therapist in any way, shape or form or doctor, but I've heard from so many experts who are a therapist and doctors about that impact of trauma and how it just can hold us in those patterns.
[00:45:39] And, um, it, I'm so glad that he did spend time learning some tools at the RTC, and that's a great start. And then just being able to find somebody and you know, what it could even be like you mentioned wilderness. Um, and I think people have one view of wilderness therapy, [00:46:00] but there are programs that are hybrid programs.
[00:46:02] So it's like we're out hiking for a week. And then we're more in like a classroom, like learning environment for a week. And then we go back out and it, it would be more of like, Dude, this is a break for you. Like get away from all these people. Don't worry about every, all your friends were leaving for college.
[00:46:22] Like this would be kind of a cool adventure for you. There's programs in Costa Rica. Like there's so many options. And so, um, yes, ed consultants are expensive and I always say worth their weighting gold. If you get a good one, because they're so surgical with that matching the needs. So that would just be something to keep in mind as an option as you're working through this with him.
[00:46:51] Because I, I think what I'd like to get into is what you would most like to see shift. If you look at the next six months or so, [00:47:00] what would be a good shift that would tell you things are going in the right direction and you know the thing with, I know you feel like he's in a pretty, I don't know if you wanna call it fragile state.
[00:47:11] There's a there's. Unstability right now, let's call it that, uh, with his mental health. Um, so you're probably not like really anxious to just kick him out the door. I'm guessing. Right? Um, however, you, you are at a point now where this is a consensual relationship. He's 18. You get to choose from a legal standpoint.
[00:47:33] I am not talking about the mama re you know, relationship, the heart relationship I am talking about from a legal standpoint, you have the option of saying, you know, you cannot live here anymore versus a month ago. You didn't have that option. Right. There's legal, um, obligations that we have as parents. So this is a really good time to start, uh, revisiting what that relationship looks like.[00:48:00]
[00:48:00] Being a bit more of a consultant, um, instead of a, you know, that traditional, like parent child relationship, it's more like, okay. If I was talking to somebody at work about this. What would I say to them? Um, and I, I think we talked about this before the episode with Dr. Mark McConville is a really good one.
[00:48:22] Yes. I don't know the number, but if you're listening, Dr. Mark McConville wrote a book called, I think the title is like my 20 something year old. Won't grow up. And I don't. And what do I do about it or something like that, but it's basically this failure to launch phenomenon that has only been exacerbated by a COVID where people's family dynamics and relationships and living arrangements are all out of whack because they've had to be, you know, that's just how it's been.
[00:48:49] So now everybody's trying to figure out, well, what the heck do I do with this 18 year old or this 22 year old or this 27 year old? That's now living with me again. , mm-hmm and it's a weird [00:49:00] relationship because you're in my house, but you're not my child anymore. You are, you know, so I think. Let's talk about what a shift would look like.
[00:49:12] That would be that you feel like would be a healthy move and then how you can start acting as a consultant with him to start going in that direction, because you, you're obviously a very caring and loving parent and you want to solve this for him. And I'm completely impressed with all of your research and resources that you found and bringing in the skateboarders.
[00:49:36] I mean, that's just amazing. So I know that you are hugely vested in, in this and at the same time, at some point, this is now his job to do.
[00:49:49] Lynn: Exactly. So, yeah,
[00:49:54] Brenda: so what's a shift that, um, kind of a, a realistic shift that you could see happening over the next [00:50:00] six months that you could work on with him.
[00:50:03] Lynn: Uh, you know, somebody, if you, if, so, if you asked him, what, what are you gonna do?
[00:50:07] His answer's gonna be to go to our local junior college. And I don't even think he's thinking of doing that in the fall. We've talked about just taking this first semester off and then starting in the spring. However, I don't even know if that's, you know, necessarily the, the next right step for him. I, you know, cuz school itself has been a huge trauma for him.
[00:50:40] So sounds like it. Yeah. Particularly this last school year was. Uh, yeah, our school district does not do a good job supporting and offering services to kids that need it. And, um, they made it incredibly difficult for him. So [00:51:00] we, we just need to heal from that. And I just, I'm not excited for him to go back into a, that kind of environment that could really trigger those feelings of, oh, here I am.
[00:51:12] Once again, I want him, I want him to feel like he can chart his own course and I, I really feel like so much life learning life skills can be learned from just getting a part-time job.
[00:51:34] Brenda: Yeah. Well, so that's, what I was gonna ask is if, if he was to take that, that first semester off, what are the conditions that would have to be in place for you to be okay with that?
[00:51:47] If you're planning on having him live with you, um, if you're not, then that's a different story, but this is the time where you can start putting those into place to say, we would love to have you live here, love that. [00:52:00] And here you, you are gonna need to have a part-time job or a full-time job or a part-time job and a, and a volunteer job or whatever it is, because we all know that boredom is the best friend of bad decisions with these kids in particular.
[00:52:18] So I think you're, you're right in thinking that. And then I think I would also just challenge you guys to think about what is besides being away from that school environment, which would be different, cuz it's a college environment. What would be the benefit of delaying that. You know, starting school, what comes to my mind is if it's your local community college, he's gonna see a lot of the same faces that he saw in high school.
[00:52:45] So would there be another option, um, in, you know, a different lo nearby school or somewhere where he could potentially have an apartment that you guys are helping, as long as he's [00:53:00] working, you know what I mean? There's a lot of different options out there. So how, how amenable is he to having these conversations with you about planning?
[00:53:11] Lynn: not top on his list. Yeah, definitely is kind of flying under the radar right now and hoping that it doesn't come up anytime soon. yeah. Doing, you know, working really hard at. Keeping his side of the hi, his side of the house clean and doing his stuff and communicating and, you know, he does need to get, he does need to push himself to get out and like my husband and I recognize that, you know, maybe a, a great first step would be just to do some volunteer work.
[00:53:56] Brenda: Absolutely.
[00:53:58] Lynn: And, um, we're [00:54:00] willing to, um, pay him for that as if it were a job. Yeah. And it might be a little, you know, less stressful and possibly even more rewarding, you know, emotionally for him to do that.
[00:54:19] Brenda: That sounds, that sounds like a really great compromise on your part, um, to recognize that he is in a position where going out and getting a job might be difficult.
[00:54:30] Um, so I love that you're thinking that way, it's really generous of your, just, it shows the work that you have done, um, to come to a place where you can recognize that, that he might not be ready for a traditional job, um, in that way. And the other thing that I have seen people do that I will just offer, if you would like another, um, idea is to say, you know what?
[00:54:59] You just [00:55:00] graduated from high school. Let's not even talk about this for three weeks or five weeks or whatever you agree to you and your husband are comfortable with so that no one's walking around on eggshells that he isn't trying to avoid the subject, that he is just let go of that pressure for however long.
[00:55:21] It is that you guys agreed to do that so that you all are in the understanding of, we are like, even if you, you could even kind of joke with them, like, even if you try don't, you dare try to have this conversation with me. Cause it is not happening. Even if you come to me and you say, mom, I got this job.
[00:55:39] Like, Nope, no, no, no, no, no, not talking about it. If you got a job, great, go do it. But don't talk to me about it. Right. Just let him know that that is just something that he doesn't even have to think about. I
[00:55:49] Lynn: love that. I love that. And then I really do.
[00:55:54] Brenda: Yeah. Then, and it's just out there. it's just out there it's like, and you could [00:56:00] even do that with your younger son too.
[00:56:01] Right? If there's something, cuz I think sometimes we forget about the siblings and it's like, well gosh, my parents are being all like really cool with my brother. And how could you also do something like that with him? Like, you know, you guys have a family meeting and it's like, guys, here's the deal. We are only having like so much fun for the next four weeks.
[00:56:23] Don't even talk to me about cleaning the house. Don't even talk to me about doing the yard. Like we are the like 100% having fun family. We're gonna be irresponsible. We're gonna go get ice cream, like at midnight, whatever, to just get through this time. Cuz this is a hard time. And then you can start putting some of those things back into place just because it can, it just gets so serious too.
[00:56:49] Right? Yeah. And it gets so
[00:56:50] Lynn: heavy and I can go, I can get really caught up in. As well, um, as, as [00:57:00] does my husband, right? Like the, the responsibility and comes out in us and taking that time to, um, play and, and that's definitely been a challenge for us with the, with the mental state that he's currently in.
[00:57:21] Cuz he just, um, you know, getting him to come out and have dinner with us is a, is a stretch. Hmm. So, but I think, I know it's like, it's kind of like the elephant in the room. Okay. I know they must be thinking about it. Yeah. I wonder what they're thinking and we're thinking, I wonder what he's thinking. And so that may kind of lift the, lighten the load a little bit and reduce the anxiety.
[00:57:54] I know that he likes to also have, he doesn't like surprises. So I [00:58:00] couldn't just sit down one day and say, Hey, we're gonna talk in five minutes about your life plan. It would,
[00:58:11] Brenda: like, who
[00:58:11] Lynn: wants that? You know, like, I don't even want that. Like we have to give options and kind of let him sit on it first before.
[00:58:23] Responding kind of give him the heads up and this would also serve that, right. It's like, so in, you know, in August, the beginning of August, my other son will be going back to school and you will not be. And so it's a great time for us to kind of talk about what steps steps we're doing. Yeah. I, I do think that, you know, getting out and whether it be volunteering, whether it be part-time job would also allow him to meet other people and mm-hmm, possibly, [00:59:00] you know, have some work friends.
[00:59:02] It would, I think, give him a sense of accomplishment. And, and really what I I'm hoping is that he he's had, he's been able to experience so few successes. Like nothing works out for him. Nothing, even the things that that should have been easy, became crazy hard. And so to have a couple of wins under his belt, and I feel like graduating high school was a win that counts as one.
[00:59:34] Um, he's gonna take his test next week for, to get his driver's permit. I think of that as once he does that, that's a big win and then me wanting to continue to make a pointed out because otherwise you end up just remembering the bad stuff. Yes. That's our natural tendency. Right? Definitely keep reminding him, [01:00:00] remember how you felt when you walked across that stage and you were done and you knew you were done done.
[01:00:04] Remember how you felt when you passed that permit test. Keep that in mind. Um, and I'm hoping that those can kind of over time build on top of each other and, and propel yes. To the next one and the next one and, and have each one, you know, be a little easier to move towards, uh, and faster to move
[01:00:30] Brenda: towards.
[01:00:31] Yeah. And, and you get to construct what that fun zone time looks like. Right. It could be, this is fun zone time, as long as you're volunteering 10 hours a week or whatever it is. Um, so you guys get to put that together so that it works for your family, but then everybody knows what the game is. Everybody knows what the plan is, and it will give him that chance to have to build that self-efficacy to say, oh, I did that.
[01:00:59] Oh. And then I [01:01:00] did that. And we know there's like so much science behind the impact of seeing those little wins. So. I would also just encourage you to have him think about, and this needs to come from him. Not, you have him think about what are like two little things I wanna accomplish during this fun summer time off, if it's six weeks or four weeks or whatever, it is just two little things and one could be the driver's permit and one could be something else.
[01:01:28] So that at the end of that, he does look back and have those few little wins. It could be just cleaning his room. Right. And like reorganizing his room, cuz like that was your high school room. Maybe you wanna get a new bed. Maybe we should, you know, like it could be just the simplest thing, but it makes him feel like check.
[01:01:47] Well, that's
[01:01:47] Lynn: interesting you say that because that's what he has spent the last two weeks doing on his own. A lot of shedding yeah. Of things [01:02:00] out of his bedroom. Yeah. Books and. You know, whatever in their trinkets and clothing and so much, in fact, I've got like three huge garbage bags in the garage to deal with now of where does this go next?
[01:02:18] Um, but he seems to be going through this kind of a shedding process and kind of a cleansing. Yeah. And I think that's, to me that's real healthy. It's showing that, you know, he's not just curled up in a ball in bed.
[01:02:36] Brenda: Well, and especially if maybe you maybe part of this, you know, summer fun period is like, Both kids get a hundred dollars to go buy something new for their room, or, you know, we're going on a shopping SP like a fun surprise, not a bad surprise, but like a fun surprise guys.
[01:02:53] Get in the car. We're going to Ikea, you hand each a hundred dollars bill go like, go find something super fun. Now with, [01:03:00] with the older one with the cash, obviously you need to make sure it gets spent at Ikea. Right. But you know what I mean? Um, you could control that too with your own debit card, but, um, just, you know, it, it does seem like such a big transition time for him and you know what we have lost.
[01:03:17] the rights of passage for our kids and rights of passage have just been proven again in science over and over to be so important. And so yes, walking across a stage for graduation is probably the one and only last Rite of passage that we have. Um, which is why I personally love wilderness programs because they're just, mm-hmm, like through, and throughout that whole experience, there's so much rights of passage.
[01:03:44] So that could also just be something to think about. Maybe ask your husband, was there anything that you did that was really meaningful at this time in of your life? You know, is there something that could just sort of be a marker for him? Um, whether it's a trip to Ike or something [01:04:00] more. You know, symbolic and significant.
[01:04:03] Um, but I think we've lost a lot of that and kids need that. Yes. We all need that. Right. Um, so yeah. Well, it sounds like you're, I can see your, your brain is percolating, which I love to see. Uh, but what I wanna hear is what is Lynn gonna do during her four or six weeks of fun summer? What can you let go of?
[01:04:27] I want you to tell me two things you're gonna let go of and two things that you wanna do, that would be just super fun. Hmm.
[01:04:37] Lynn: Um,
[01:04:42] Brenda: and they have to be things that you're gonna let go of that your kids would be like, holy crap. I can't believe my mom's
[01:04:47] Lynn: not doing, oh my gosh, I can't can, I can't even think, what am I gonna let go of?
[01:04:57] Brenda: You have to feel kind of guilty about letting go of it. [01:05:00] like a little irresponsible, cuz I know you are an
[01:05:05] Lynn: extremely responsible person.
[01:05:07] I know. It's like what, what could I not show up for?
[01:05:12] Brenda: I'm getting you uncom. I'm getting you uncomfortable.
[01:05:13] Lynn: Yeah. Well, so we have a cabin in the mountains and I would like us, not only as a family to go up and spend a couple days obviously, but I also want to take a few girlfriends up with me and just do a girl's trip.
[01:05:42] And I also want to just go up with just me and, um, that I have never done. Like I've gone up. By myself for a night, but then somebody's coming the next day to meet me or [01:06:00] family's coming the next day. So I'm getting things ready, but just to like go up and I have, I really struggle saying, I just wanna sit down and read a book.
[01:06:16] Right. And then when I do it's, this is my therapist and I were laughing about this. It's always a self-help book. It's always, you know, and now it's all these books, right. It's it's right. Their little process. Right. It's you know, journey of the rogue parent. Yeah. You know, and it' therapist says, what about a book?
[01:06:37] That's just like nonsense. Yeah. Like a romance. Yeah. Like a romance novel mystery, you know, something that's not because she says, what don't you see? You're still. Work. You're still working. And to me, that is, that is actually a luxury sitting down and reading those books. I really wanna do it. She's like, no, no, no.
[01:06:59] [01:07:00] Find a book. That's just, you know, a raunchy beach read. I'm like really? Yes. It just seems like that. I know that probably sounds silly to people, but that is, that would be big for me. That would be
[01:07:15] Brenda: okay. I love that. So, so Lynn's summer of fun is going to include a trip to the cabin book
[01:07:28] and, and may I suggest one more thing? Yeah. Yeah. For this trip that you're gonna take mm-hmm you are not going to pre-make food and leave it for your family. Okay. You are not going to, you are not gonna clean the house before you go. you can figure out what you do. If you have dogs, you can figure that out.
[01:07:50] I'll let you do that, but you're just gonna go, just gonna go. Obviously you're gonna plan it with your husband so that he's home. Cuz we don't wanna like child [01:08:00] protective services coming after you. Um, but just go. Yeah. What's the worst thing that could happen. Okay. Well I'm going to then hold you to the second thing that you're gonna do and you're gonna send me a chat in the stream so that I know what that is.
[01:08:17] Okay. So you can think about that one. And then my final questions for you are on a scale of one to 10 with one being not at all and 10 being massively. How important is it to you to make some of these changes that we talked about? Oh, a 10.
[01:08:41] Why not a seven.
[01:08:44] Lynn: because I just feel like there's so much at stake right now for the next chapter of our family for the next chapter for my son as an adult, I feel like [01:09:00] it's a fresh start. And so we shouldn't take it for granted. Like we shouldn't, um, let it go to waste. We should really make the most of it and, and make, you know, the, the most informed decisions as we can around it.
[01:09:19] So, so we can set him up for success.
[01:09:23] Brenda: Yeah. Yeah. It's a 10,
[01:09:26] Lynn: it's a, it's a big deal for sure.
[01:09:30] Brenda: Yeah. And then the second question is same scale. Not at all. And massively, how confident do you feel about doing this about actually making this happen? Uh,
[01:09:45] Lynn: sitting here right now. I'd say five .
[01:09:53] Brenda: Okay.
[01:09:54] Lynn: I really, why not?
[01:09:56] Brenda: Why? Why not at 10?
[01:09:59] Lynn: So, [01:10:00] because I always feel like I have something more to learn to make it right, but
[01:10:05] Brenda: that's okay. So you're to five and, and you can always be working on, on learning more, but also just from a confidence that it's less about how confident are you in your skills? It's more about how confident are you that you are going to enact some of the things that we talked about, like the fun summer and just getting the elephant out of the room going on your little trip.
[01:10:35] Lynn: Oh, that's fine. Seven reading's book. That's yeah, it's it. You know, it's, it's a long game. So anytime I start panicking, it's, it's a long game, you know, uh, four days ago. Yeah. My son just seemed so down and agitated and I just started catastrophizing like, oh my God, here we go. This is, [01:11:00] it's just gonna snowball and get worse.
[01:11:02] Right. And then the next day he came out and said, oh, I need stamps. Cuz I've just written out all my thank yous for my graduation money. And I'm like, okay. And then, okay. The next day he came and said, can we go down to the DMV to get the information on the permit? And it, and it's like, okay. But as much as I get excited about that and feel like, okay, we're just little steps.
[01:11:32] I also know that another day. Well, you know, it's just a roller coaster. You just gotta learn how to ride the wave and then have me figure out. Not how to go under every darn time, but to ride it right. And know that it will be hot, there's highs and there's lows. And it's, it's the long game. I mean, this is how it's gonna be for years with him.
[01:11:57] Brenda: Yeah. It is so good to recognize that, think of it as a stuff [01:12:00] market it's, it's up and down, up and down, up and down. But generally it's always going up into the right with a lot of right. With a lot
[01:12:09] Lynn: of ups and that's how, that's how it is with these. So with these kids, regardless if they have this stuff going on, just the, just the age and the oh yeah.
[01:12:19] Brain, but then you add all this stuff and it's like,
[01:12:24] Brenda: so yes. Well, how do
[01:12:27] Lynn: you feel? I feel, I feel centered. I feel, I feel grounded. I feel, I feel. Like I have some new strategies that I can implement. And, and I think you've kind of given me permission to kind of, um, that it's okay to kind of just breathe this summer a little bit and not, you know, part of me wants to go in and say, you know, get a job on this day and da da, da.
[01:12:58] But I know that's like, [01:13:00] that's not gonna happen. That's crazy talk. Right. That's never, it's, that's only gonna make things worse. So right. I just wanna be mindful, strategic, thoughtful about how I approach it. So he feels supported, but he also is getting nudged along.
[01:13:18] Brenda: Yeah, love it. Lovingly nudged. I like it.
[01:13:23] All right. Made dear, will you follow up? Send me a chat in the community about what your second thing is that you're gonna do besides the cabin trip. Does the
[01:13:31] Lynn: retreat count?
[01:13:32] Brenda: No, cuz that's not till October. Yeah. So this is your summer of fun.
[01:13:37] Lynn: Okay. Okay.
[01:13:39] Brenda: Okay. All right. We'll talk to you soon. I'll see you online.
[01:13:43] Lynn: All right, bye. Thank you. Bye.
[01:13:48] Brenda: Okay, that is it for today. If you would like to get the show notes for this episode, you can go to Brenda zane.com/podcast. All of the episodes are listed there [01:14:00] and you can also find curated playlists there. So that's very helpful. You might also wanna download a free ebook. I wrote it's called hindsight three things.
[01:14:10] I wish I knew when my son was misusing drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your son or daughter might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through this rough time. You can grab that free from Brenda zane.com/hindsight. Thank you so much for listening.
[01:14:34] I appreciate it. And I hope that these episodes are helping you stay strong and be very, very good to yourself. And I will meet you right back here next week.