Debunking Myths and Connecting Dots Between Mental Health, Substance Use, and Gender Identity, with Jordan Held
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@hopestreamcommunity.org
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guest: Jordan Held, LCSW
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About this episode:
Jordan Held has a Masters degree in both Social Welfare and Sports Leadership, and a bachelor's degree in Kinesiology. He’s worked in residential mental health treatment, as well as the world's largest gender clinic, giving him a great deal of experience with the most pressing issues affecting teens and young adults - especially those who are exploring their sexual identity. In this episode, we discuss why some young people are going "stealth", the post-pandemic spread of school avoidance, why kids don't even consider marijuana a drug any more, and how parenting without shame creates bonds of trust that leave families stronger in difficult times.
Episode resources:
Jordan Held LinkedIn
Netflix show, Disclosure
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Jordan: 0:02
I think the blessing and the curse of, you know, marijuana getting legalized in a lot of ways is that that was not accompanied by an increase in education in school systems, right? So now young people are under this impression. I mean, would you rather me use fentanyl or meth or cocaine? Why would I not use marijuana, right? It's not seen as a drug anymore, right? In fact, for a lot of young people that I work with, it's their primary coping mechanism. So parents are really struggling with how do I limit substance use in young people.
Brenda: 1:03
You're listening to HopeStream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances, is in a treatment program or finding their way to recovery. You're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me, Brenda Zane, your host and follow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. So after the episode, head over to our website at hopestreamcommunity. org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show. I have to say one of the things I appreciate most about doing this podcast is the amount I learn. And the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know, which turns into this crazy cycle of always wanting to learn more. So I don't feel so in the dark. Today's episode is a perfect example of that. You may think based on the title of this episode that it won't be relevant to you if your child is not questioning their gender identity. But I can assure you, you'll be glad you listened because my guest Jordan held shares knowledge we all need just to be better humans. Jordan is president and founder of his private practice, relentless Pursuit Therapy and Consulting in Southern California. He holds a master's of social welfare degree from UCLA. A master's of sports leadership from Northeastern University and a bachelor's of science in kinesiology and athletic administration from the University of Connecticut. Jordan's expertise is working with gender and sexual minority youth with complex histories of PTSD and trauma. He previously worked at Children's Hospital Los Angeles in the Center for Trans Youth Health and Development, which is the largest trans youth health clinic in the United States. In this conversation, we cover so much ground from Jordan's experience as a female D1 athlete who also struggled with self harm and unhealthy substance use to the most common issues he sees in the youth he works with today, regardless of gender. He talks about the tendency for kids to self diagnose their symptoms, thanks to the internet, and what's leading some to go stealth with their gender identity and what the impact of that is. We also dive into whether young people questioning their gender identity is trendy or a fad and What he most wants parents to know. It is a don't miss discussion touching on topics You aren't going to hear anywhere else. So here is me and Jordan Held Enjoy. Jordan, welcome to Hope Stream. This is going to be a really amazing conversation. I had the pleasure of getting to hear you at YADA, which is Young Adult Transition Association conference in beautiful San Diego. That was. It's a really nice venue and I felt it was really important to tap back into you for some of that knowledge for the podcast. So thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me on. I'd love to just start out with some of your background to let people know kind of who you are as a person. your kind of dual perspective on this topic of transgender people, especially adolescents. I know you work with a lot of families. So let's start there with whatever you feel is, is important for us to know.
Jordan: 4:59
Professionally, you know, I'm a private practice therapist. I have a lot of experience working both in the hospital setting in the world's largest gender clinic in Los Angeles, as well as in residential treatment for mental health. So I have a solid amount of experience with some of the most acute cases that could ever happen. And I, I really love this work, specifically the family work which we'll get into throughout this podcast, but I grew up in Boston. I lived most of my life in Boston. I'll get it kind of out of the way now. So I'm a queer transgender guy. So I was designated female up earth. I identify as male now. I grew up going to really good schools. I happened to go to a an all girls school in the Boston area for six years. I survived on athletics and why I say I survived on athletics is because it's an integral part of my story. I was able to, like a lot of teens, even with resources, I was able to be a good student, be a good athlete, and simultaneously be suffering at the same time. And this becomes an important part of my story later on. But I was a very, I'll call myself a proud female. Athletes even throughout college where I played I did division one sports at the university of Connecticut. I later went on to, to coach and work in schools. I was more invested in athletics and really using sport as a social power than anything else. And simultaneously there was something going on with me, right? I was like, what's happening? And I didn't have the words. I would be self harming. I would be, you know, cutting at night and then getting ready to like be a starter on the freshman team. You know, I was having suicidal thoughts and, you know, staying up late studying so I could get into a good school. I didn't know what was going on and my parents, you know, back then had no idea either. I always remember having my mom and I getting into these arguments over. What clothes to wear you know, especially, you know, to special occasions, like, you need to wear this dress. I'm like, I hate this dress. I'm not going to wear this. I'm like crying for two hours, right? But there was no words. Like, no one knew what was going on. This wasn't really a thing, you know, in the, in the eighties and nineties especially in Boston, which, you know, is liberal in some respects, but is also quite conservative as cities go in a lot of other ways. I struggled with my. Sexuality. I struggled with my gender. You know, I recently actually this at earlier this week had coffee with a former classmate of mine from from high school that I hadn't seen in over 20 years. And at that point. And, and, and him and I actually are both trans guys. We both went to this kind of prestigious all girls school and have since transitioned. And so we're kind of like in this work together. He's also a social worker. Wow. I know. And so we were talking about this. He was out as gay at the time in high school. And I was out there being like, no, I don't have nothing to do with this. Like I was wanting to like be a popular girl and just fit in. Right. And my behaviors were, were that of trying to fit in as well. Right. Like drinking you know, trying to like find weed from some random guy on the weekend. You know, wearing clothes that I felt very uncomfortable with, like hooking up with people that I did not have any interest in. It was very destructive, but I didn't really know what was happening. You know, so I went fast forward a long time, because once again, I want to get into the meat of this, but I I went to college, I started working after, and I finally met a trans guy. And I was like, oh my goodness, like, this is me, right? For the first time I was able to understand, like, you know, why I would wear a sports bra 24 hours a day. You know, and not want to take it off. That was chest dysphoria. I would realize that, like, why I was cutting myself when really I was just so I didn't want to, like, wear a certain thing or act a certain way. That was gender dysphoria. The puzzles started coming together. And it wasn't till when I was 30 years old and well into my life and my career where I was like, I don't think I can keep masking anymore. I came to a crossroads of, I can either continue doing what I'm doing. And at some point I will pretty much just self implode because I'm so good at pretending to be okay. Because this was a learned adaptation for me. Or I can do something about it. So I actually moved from Los Ange from Boston to Los Angeles. I wanted a change because I couldn't really stay at the job where I was at anymore. Because it was really it was too hard. I actually got told by my old boss, a headmaster, when I asked him if I could wear What the male faculty members wear instead of what the female faculty members wear. He actually said to me, we're not ready for that yet here. And those words, and mind you, this was in like 2010, right? So this wasn't a long time ago. This is the 30s. I know. It's wild. We're not ready for that here. And those words stick with me. Because simultaneously at that school, and I was working in athletic department coaching, coaching world, I had not become a therapist yet. I was like, but all these kids are coming to me wanting to talk about this stuff, right? We actually are ready for this now. We are here. Yeah. And it was kind of at that point where I took this, this plunge of like, I'm going to move. I need to absolutely fret, do a fresh start. You know, I already had a master's degree in sports leadership. That was my passion. And I was like, I'm going to shift this. Right. So I came out to LA. I went back to school again at 30. I went to UCLA and got my MSW and I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I went to the Los Angeles LGBT Center where I actually serve on the board of directors now and I went there and I wanted to speak to a provider who did gender care. So I was working on this. Personally, I was like, I'm going to start my transition and at the same time, I'm going back to school. I'm going to become a social worker and I want to work at Children's Hospital Los Angeles in the Center for Trans Youth. I want to help kids. I want to help families. And I did this at the same time. It was a really interesting couple years of my life. where I broke it to my mom after 30 years that she in fact has a son. I changed my name, changed my pronouns, did the whole thing, jumped right into it. You know, went full time back into school and then started this path where I really do mold my professional and personal lenses to help families and in particular young people, adolescents to not have to wait three decades in order to start their lives as their authentic selves.
Brenda: 12:06
Right. Okay. So that could be its very own. Not even a podcast, but a series. I told you there was a lot to that. Right. So as much as I have a thousand questions about that, I'm going to resist asking them. One of the things that really impacted me when I heard your session at the conference was the bit that you did on the history of trans people, because it was mind blowing to me. I had no idea. I know you, I think that presentation was an hour and a half, so I know I'm asking a lot for you to boil it down into just a few minutes, but maybe you can share with us some of what you think are the top line Nuggets that we should know in that area of history, because I think what it does is it helps dispel some fear and mystery and one of the top myths and I'm going to just warn him and ask you to bust some myths at the end of this. But one of the, one of the myths that I hear is like, this is just a trend. This is something that came through tick tock and it's going to pass. And so. Help us out with some of those history bullet points that you want us to know.
Jordan: 13:18
Yeah. I think this is a really great, great place to start because now more than ever, I'm talking with parents and even kids. They have no idea the history. Yeah. You know, we could spend an entire, you know, entire hour just talking about the history, but I think what is important is that there is a history. Trans people have been around for centuries, and in some cultures, trans people are actually revered, right? Trans people are actually You know, looked up upon as you know, having something inherent to offer. And I think the narrative, especially over the last 5 or so years in the political world is that. Trans people are new. They're multiplying like COVID at rapid, rapid stages. And what are we going to do about it? Right? It's almost like you can picture the like intense music that's playing behind as we're talking about the like influx of trans adolescence in particular. If I was going to pick one. You know, person of historical context I would pick someone who actually isn't even trans, but who was the foremost, like, protector of queer and trans people during Nazi Germany, Magnus Hirschfeld, who I spoke about at the conference, and who I've done an extensive deep dive into because I think he's fascinating. Magnus started the Institute for Sexual Science in Berlin, Germany. And he safe harbored queer and trans people during Nazi Germany and before and after. And was, he kept all of this academic, this research, this information on trans and queer people who have been around, who were pioneers of the time. People who were, and he was a doctor and he would help people access gender affirming care. Back then in a time where not only were things not talked about, but it was you know, not allowed or not accepted. And he created this safe space for people. And why I think Magnus is so important is he approached everything from a lens of science. The on his gravestone, on his marker, I believe he's buried in France. You know, it says per scientiam ad justitiam through science to justice. And I think that that is such an important phrase right now, because when we're talking about, and when we're hearing about gender care. People are speaking about it, not through a scientific lens, people are speaking about it from a lens of what they maybe are seeing on TikTok or what somebody on Fox News might be sharing without any personal or professional experience about something. And what I say to that and why this is important is in the world of gender care. We have a standard of care, right? There is literally over 200 page documents about how medically and from a mental health perspective. We work with gender diverse people. There are doctors and mental health professionals who have devoted their entire lives to being professionals of gender care. And so I think that that motto is so important. is because there, there is science involved. We don't question people who have heart attacks and who need a certain bypass surgery. You trust your doctor, right? You might go for a second opinion, right? But the same thing could hold true with gender. But what has shifted, you know, historically to now is that. We're not even asking those questions, right? We're treating trans people as a pathology with stigma, as an anomaly as there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with me and it leaves away, like, all of these decades and centuries of this isn't new and so, you know, madness really was symbolic of The fact that this already has been happening and with Nazi Germany, the Institute for Sexual Science, all the documents got burned, everything got destroyed. So volumes and volumes of books and literature and case studies, which would have proved that all of these things were going on for so long. are no longer with us. So I think it's really, really important that we remember and learn about. And that's just one example of, you know, hundreds of people, you know, that have been some of the pioneers in this work.
Brenda: 17:59
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Jordan: 20:03
I'll start with my kid isn't going to school. The amount of school avoidance that I am seeing in adolescents, trans or not. You know, I work with a lot of young people who are, who are not trans and who, you know, really, you know, have been in and out of, you know, treatment facilities. Are just struggling with their mental health in general and substance use, but I think in general, it's kids are not knowing, especially after COVID after the pandemic, kids don't know how to exist in the world. Yeah. I'm finding now more than ever that kids think that going to school is optional and that why don't you just, I just want to be homeschooled because they had the taste of that. Yeah. And what that really means in reality is I don't want to be around people because people. Bully me. People make fun of me. Why would I put myself in jeopardy of that trauma when I could just isolate? Right? So that's one of the big things parents are struggling with. What do I even do about the fact that my kid doesn't want to leave the home? Another thing that parents are struggling with is substance use. I am at a point in my career professionally, and I do consider myself an expert in a lot of things. I am struggling to know how to handle the high uses of marijuana. Vaping in particular, vaping nicotine or THC has become so normalized in teenagers that it's hard to even approach things from a harm reduction model because young people don't think that there's anything wrong with it. I think the blessing and the curse of, you know, marijuana getting legalized in a lot of ways is that that was not accompanied by an increase in education in school systems, right? So now young people are under this impression, I mean, would you rather me use fentanyl or meth or cocaine? Why would I not use marijuana, right? It's not seen as a drug anymore, right? In fact, for a lot of young people that I work with, it's their primary coping mechanism. Right. And, and, and it's wild. I mean, it used to be back in the day where it was like, you, you know, I would use substances, but there wasn't this fear that it was laced with fentanyl. Right. Right. I mean, we're, we've, there, there have been multiple deaths in the elite prep schools in the California area, Southern California, with people using fentanyl. Right. You know, and being laced with something and then they, they, they die. So parents are really struggling with how do I limit substance use in young people? Partially because we are seeing this co occurrence of severe mental health symptoms that are coming out of prolonged marijuana use. You know, leading all the way up to psychotic features and symptoms. So that's a big concern as well. When I work with when parents are coming in to talk to me about their kids and gender, a lot of it, it's, it's, I'll put it all in a blender and mix it up and then you try and get a sense of what's actually happening and it's really hard, right? I'll also throw in a lot of eating disorders and self harm, suicidality. Young people have these words now, right? The blessing and the curse of social media is that, More, most of my teenage clients have memorized the DSM in ways that I could never even know all the traits of all these diagnoses, right? Because as soon as a young person latches onto a symptom or a trait, they want to automatically pathologize themselves. Yeah. And they
Brenda: 23:35
can because they can go to Google and they can find it out. And then that's what I am.
Jordan: 23:39
Yes. And so, you know, in the field, we call it sociogenic illness, but this has also become a tough thing as a therapist. It's really that self diagnosis, right? There's a lot of self diagnosis that young people are doing about everything. And this, you know, I tow a very fine line when it comes to this, because this is when parents come to me and say, well, are you sure that my kid is trans? They've got five other people at their school who, you know, are identifying as non binary or transmasculine or transfeminine or whatever. And I feel like my kid is just latching onto this to fit in. So how can I be sure? Right. Big questions. These are big questions. And guess what? These are real questions.
Brenda: 24:25
Yeah.
Jordan: 24:26
And I feel for parents a lot because you're going up this like uphill and, and you're trying to, to, to, to stop and it's icy and you're skidding and you're going all over the place and, and you know, it's, it's messy, it's chaotic, and sometimes you just want to be able to like piece everything apart into different into different segments so that you can actually understand what's going on. And so that's what we need to do. Right. We need to be able to say, hold on. There's so much going on. Let's break this up into more digestible pieces so that we can understand and not, we don't make decisions overnight and we don't make decisions in a vacuum. Right? And we could be talking about gender care. We could also be talking about mental health or substance use. We always want to be finding out what's the underlying cause of what we're trying to work with, what we're trying to treat. And, and, and it's not easy when at the, at your fingertips is information, a lot of which is bad.
Brenda: 25:32
Right. It's like you said, the blessing and the curse, because I'm sure there's a sense of community in finding other people who might be Experiencing what you are and at the same time could be very dangerous and very harmful to a young person's mental health. So that's a slippery slope as well. And I do, I feel for the parents who are in this boat because you've got a lot of, like you said, other, there's this constellation of things going on. So. Is it the substance use? Is it the eating disorder? Is it the depression? Is it the anxiety? Is it COVID? Is it our family? Is it what is going on? And you probably have to be able to figure out how to start dissecting that bit by bit and earning the trust of this young person who has got to just be under so
Jordan: 26:29
We have to create a scenario where an adolescent who already, no matter what's going on, you could have the most perfect quote unquote adolescence and you know, they're, they still wouldn't want to talk to their parents about what's going on. So then you take an adolescent who's going through a lot of stuff. The first and foremost thing that needs to happen is that trust, right? And you have to create an environment with no shame.
Brenda: 26:55
Yeah.
Jordan: 26:56
Because the moment that a teenager or a child feels any kind of shame that was, that started from something that a parent said without the desire for repair, you've lost that kid. Yeah. And I think that's what I see a lot, especially in the world of gender. When kids and their parents with the family work is that parents often come to me and say, my kid just came to me yesterday and all of a sudden they want to start hormones. And I say, Oh, that's interesting. Like, tell me about that. And they'll explain that. And then I bring the kid in right after I've already had a conversation with the kid. And I asked the same thing. And what nine times out of 10 has already happened is that years ago, this kid. Mentioned something about their gender and it could have been something super benign like about like, Hey, can I wear a suit to my bar mitzvah, right? Instead of like something else or a dress or I have this party and you're making me wear this like lacy gown and all I want to wear is a tux and a parent says something like, Oh no, you can't wear a tux. Tuxes are for boys. You're a girl. Okay, we lost it. That was it. So then we fast, we, we fast forward five years and a parent wonders, why are they coming to be now with this emergency with this crisis, the kid probably has other support systems. I can imagine that this kid has talked to their friends about their gender and probably uses a different name in a different pronouns, you know, to maybe even at school. Right. But what we need to do is be able to get that back with the parents. Where was that lost? Where was that rupture? Well, the rupture was when that kid was invalidated about the tuxedo. The parent probably doesn't realize that they ever even, that that ever even happened. Right. They're like, what are you talking about? Exactly. So what we need to do is be able to, Hey, remember that time. This is what that did to the kid. Can we work on this? Are you open as a parent to being accountable that you said something that harmed this child? You didn't mean it with malicious intent, but it did impact some. Yeah. And then build from there.
Brenda: 29:15
Yeah. It sounds like a combination of just a lack of awareness, obviously. And I think also, even, even if a parent is starting to see things and, and maybe think, Oh, this might be what's going on. There's just so much fear. It's just fear of the unknown. It's fear of, you know, but my kid isn't going to pass. Like I look at you and I'm sure you hear us all the time. You would never in a million years think, Oh, there's a transgender person, but there are some that aren't going to pass. Well, and I think the parents take on that fear of like, Oh, life is going to be so hard for them, which yes, maybe it is, but like, what do you, what do you, how should we think about that?
Jordan: 30:04
Yeah. And I think you, you opened up this can of worms, right? Because even the idea of passability, we could talk about for an hour from a, from a lens, from a sociological lens of what are we perceiving? A cis person to look like versus a trans person, right? And, and, and, and how can we normalize gender and gender differences as opposed to pathologizing the like, the, the, how are you going to look versus what if you don't pass? What if your teenagers half the time now, they want to be what's called stealth, which is they exist in a world where they don't want anyone to know that they're trans. Right. So their greatest fear is that somebody finds out that they are trans and that will be the end of their world. And to be fair, that sometimes happens because the amount of kids that have gotten outed in their schools and then lost their entire social system. And then we wonder why. trans kids mental health and is so bad and suicide numbers are so high. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand why that and how that happens. But we really need to work with parents on like understanding the importance of a separate space for them to process what's going on as opposed to doing that work with their kid right away. When parents come to me, And I can tell right away that they're not necessarily supportive of their kid. The last thing I want to do is get them in a room with their kid at them, right? Because there already is going to be that tension. So that's when I would want to be working specifically with the parents about what are your fears? Like, let's talk about that. Let's talk about What are your preconceived notions? What do you know about your kid's gender journey? Maybe you're missing a lot of key information, right? Here, here's some resources, some support groups for other parents who have gone through similar things to what you're going through. There's so much beauty in that parent on parent space. And then, and, and that's some of the work that I do is just doing support groups for parents, right? I mean, as a trans person, it is sometimes hard when there's parents who are like literally speaking to me being like, you know, I don't believe in this, you know, they're never going to fit in, you know, all of these things. I mean, I like to see myself as almost like a beacon of hope in this way. And like, you know, I recently got married seven months ago, you know, I have a. really beautiful wife. Like my mom was there and didn't misgender me once during her speech. Like it was a really like show I was worried about. It's like I have a beard and like, you know, yet somehow still because we're, this is the society we live in. My mom sometimes even has a difficult time, like, you know Really like tracking back to like, this is my son now and, and normalizing it. But these are the spaces we need to create, right? Like we need to create spaces where people can make mistakes, not to the detriment of their child, because trust me, the child is already feeling it. Right? I often get asked, why, why now? Why is this happening so much? Right? And there's a really easy reason for that. Right? It's not that it's contagious. And this goes to some of the myths. It's not that being trans is trendy right now. It's that there are more possibility models out there for people to see. Right? So like when I'm working with any of my trans clients and Okay. They're telling me how they're never going to be able to be loved, and they're never going to be able to have a job, and all the things, and I can, I can, you know, be a beacon of hope for them, right, that not only can, you can, because, listen to my story, but let me actually rattle off like 30 different people who are also possibility models, why don't you turn on the TV, who And see this actor who's now playing in this show and this actress that's now in that show. I mean, we have a show like Euphoria, right? Talk about the combination of like substance use and adolescence, right? Where we got like Hunter Schaffer, who's like a beautiful out trans woman. who is a amazing actress and people can see themselves in her, right? You've got Brian Michael Smith, who's a black trans guy who is on the show like 9 1 1. It's not a show about trans people or queer people. He's just a badass firefighter. Yeah. Right. So like, It's, it's such a different landscape where people can actually see themselves. Whereas when I was growing up, we didn't have the internet to go looking up like trans people. I didn't know being trans was even a thing. And. You couldn't turn on the TV and see a trans person. The only thing that I would see is, Oh, it's Mrs. Doubtfire. Like, how is that role being portrayed? Right? You've got this, like, quote unquote, the myth of, like, a man in a dress who's kind of infiltrating a family to, like, get in, right, or in Silence of the Lambs, right, how, like, trans people, Law and Order, SVU, it's always, like, the trans woman that gets murdered and she was a sex worker, right? And I really encourage everyone, if you haven't seen it, to watch the movie, Disclosure, on Netflix because it really goes into, without me taking up the time, it goes into how some of the media portrayals of trans people have perpetuated some of these myths. So, now, trans adolescents can be who they want to be, and this is a shift.
Brenda: 35:47
And that's such a good message for parents to hear, that yes, this is going to be A journey that you're going to be on with your child and it can lead to really beautiful places. And I think you're a great example of that. And despite the fact that I do have 2000 more questions, I'm going to let you go to get on with your day, helping families and young people. And I just can't thank you enough for spending the time with us and we'll point people in your direction because they probably also have 2000 more questions and I will just let you answer them. Directly. How's that?
Jordan: 36:22
That sounds perfect. There's, we, this could go in a lot of different, different ways. It's a very, it's a very nuanced topic that I think has been boiled down to everything, but what it is, which is, you know, everyone's desire to live
Brenda: 36:41
Love it. We'll wrap it up there. Thank you, Jordan. I appreciate it so much. And we might have to just do a follow up because we never even got to gender affirming care. So
Jordan: 36:52
I think we do need to do a follow up.
Brenda: 36:54
Part two. Part two. Great. so much. Bye bye. Okay, my friend, that's a wrap for today. Don't forget to download the new ebook, Worried Sick. It's totally free and will shed so much light on positive tools and strategies you can use right now to start creating conditions for change in your home and in your relationships. It's at hopestreamcommunity. org forward slash worried. And as always, you can find any resources mentioned during today's show at brenda zane dot com forward slash podcast. That is where every episode is listed and you can search by keywords. Episode number or the guest name, plus we've created playlists for you, which make it easier to find episodes grouped by topic. And those are at brendazine. com forward slash playlists. Please be extraordinarily good to yourself today. Take a deep breath. You have got this. You are not doing it alone. And I will meet you right back here next week.