Revealing What Exactly Educational and Therapeutic Consultants Do (and don’t do), with Joanna Lilley
Host: Brenda Zane, brenda@hopestreamcommunity.org
Instagram: @hopestreamcommunity
Guest: Joanna Lilley, Lilley Consulting
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About this episode:
After watching her brother's life cut short by substance use, Ann Coleman was intimately familiar with its dangers. So when her son - who already suffered from anxiety and depression - started using marijuana, hallucinogens and opiates, her trauma and instincts of fear and control kicked in hard. Looking back, Ann recognizes that at the time she believed her son was solely to blame for the unraveling of the relationship. Now, she knows better.Episode summary:
Episode Resources:
Joanna’s website: https://lilleyconsulting.com/
Therapeutic Consulting Assoc.: https://www.therapeuticconsulting.org/
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Joanna: [00:00:00] If you can assume that every admissions person that you're speaking with for any program is going to sell you, or I mean, they are going to try to sell ice to an Eskimo type situation, right? They are going to convince you that, that your child is perfect for their program. That the there is no wrong, the best advice that I can give, and I do the same thing for the families that I work with. Ask to be able to speak with other parents.
Brenda: You are listening to Hope Stream. If you're parenting a young person who misuses substances is in a treatment program or finding their way to recovery, you're in the right place. This is your private space to learn from experts and gain encouragement and support from me. Brenda Zane, your host and fellow mom to a child who struggled. This podcast is just one of the resources we offer for parents. [00:01:00] So after the episode, head over to our website at Hopestreamcommunity.org. I'm so glad you're here. Take a deep breath, exhale, and know that you have found your people. And now let's get into today's show.
Hey, my friend, I am glad to be here with you today. I hope this is a time for you to step away from all you might be dealing with any problem solving you're doing. The tall buildings you are leaping over on a regular basis and that you can just listen in and catch things that have meaning for you. I'm so passionate about the conversations I share here because I truly would've given anything to have had access to the people and the information.
That you can find here in these 200 plus episodes. Now, today is definitely one of those. It is a conversation with a trusted partner of ours, Joanna Lilly, founder of Lilly Consulting. She's a therapeutic consultant who [00:02:00] works to help young adults and their families navigate finding resources at any transition point during young adulthood.
Joanna joined me way, way back on episode thirty-nine for a conversation about young people who unravel as they transition into adulthood. So be sure to go and check that one out. Joanna holds a master's degree in counseling from West Virginia University and is a nationally certified counselor before entering the consulting field.
She collectively worked with struggling adolescents and young adults for over 10 years. She has worked in wilderness therapy programs, coached students on academic probation and served on a university treatment team for students who deferred their suspension by opting into an in-house recovery program.
She works with families from all over the world, but she herself lives in Traverse City, Michigan. I [00:03:00] wanted to have a frank conversation about what therapeutic and educational consultants do. You'll hear both terms. Therapeutic consultants and educational consultants, and sometimes they do differ a little bit, but I hear so much confusion about this topic and what role they play, what they do, and don't do that.
I just needed to get very reliable source to let us know. I wanted to share accurate information with you because working with someone in this role is one more tool that you can add to your tool belt while you are figuring all of this out with your child and your family. I was lucky enough to be referred to a consultant when my son was 16 and living a very high-risk lifestyle, and at that point was just experimenting with drugs and alcohol.
I'd been doing research on my own and I found a lot of different kinds of programs in places that he could go, but I didn't even know what it was I was looking for. So it was pretty much a fool's errand. [00:04:00] I didn't have a therapeutic background. Nor any expertise in the kinds of things that he was struggling with.
So it was really a case of not knowing what you don't know, not a great way to find help for your child. And I also wanna state up front that working with a consultant does cost money. Each one varies in what they charge. And for some parents, it might absolutely not be an option. And I get that.
Personally, we borrowed money to pay for our consultant because I knew I wasn't qualified to navigate the ocean of available options, and I was also a crazy person at the time under so much stress just trying to keep my head above water. So I knew it was not a job that I should be doing yet we didn't have the funds available to engage with someone, so we made the decision to approach our family for help.
In the end, I would say it was hands down the best investment we [00:05:00] made because it removed the burden of me or my ex-husband having to become experts in a field that we knew zero about and we were able to move quickly and time is one element of this that is very important to factor into your decision matrix.
So with that, I will let you listen in to hear at a detailed level what exactly it is that therapeutic and educational consultants do and don't do. So here's me and Joanna. Lilly, enjoy.
Hello. Hello, miss Joanna. Welcome back to Hope Stream. I just did a quick Google search of my own podcast to see when you were on last, and it was episode [00:06:00] 39. Can you believe it?
Joanna: No complete disbelief. That was years ago. Yeah,
Brenda: I just, when I see the double digit numbers, I'm like, wait a minute. That was a long time ago.
'cause I think this will probably end up being in the low two hundreds. So it's been a little while, so it's good to catch up with you. Not that I didn't just see you in San Diego, which was also lovely, but really good to catch
Joanna: back up. I really appreciate you having me back on.
Brenda: We talked last month, I guess it was at this conference that we were at, and I asked you if you would be willing to come on and do a little bit of a reveal for our audience, because what I am hearing over and over is, first of all, I don't know what the heck an educational consultant is, because you know when you get dropped into this world, you're like.
I feel like you're on Mars and there's a whole new language and, and all of that, but also just not really understanding [00:07:00] what it is that you all do. And I know everybody's a little different in their business and how they run it and what they do, but in general, I think there's just not a really good understanding of what that looks like, which is too bad because I really found.
Working with an educational consultant, while it was a huge chunk of money, and I thought, this is the most insane thing I've ever done, it was the best money spent. Because you know, when you're in crisis, you're not thinking, well, just overwhelmed. And again, you're on Mars, so you're trying to navigate a planet that you've never been on before.
So I just thought it would be important to catch up. And I know you're a person who just tells it like it is, so I thought, let's do it.
Joanna: Yeah, I'm, I am certainly very direct. Well, let's
Brenda: start out, first of all, I think a lot of people have know that there are consultants that you can work with. Like if you have a child who's going, you know, they're junior, senior in high school and you wanna kind of help get them into the right college or at [00:08:00] least point them in the right direction.
I think most people are fairly aware of that, kind of a consultant, but I don't know that they're aware that there are other types of educational consultants. So maybe you can just like give us a, the groundwork of what that looks like and then we'll dive into all the other juice.
Joanna: Well, I think it's, we're hitting the nail right on the head immediately, which is the title, right?
Or the job title doesn't match the description of what it is that we need or what we're looking for or what this person does. And so even for me, again, this is me being, I'm gonna be the most transparent person. I don't call myself an educational consultant, but do programs refer to me as educational consultants or ECS to.
Parents, like when they call me and they say, are you an educational consultant? I'll say, yeah, yes. Um, I call myself a therapeutic consultant, but it doesn't matter because that's also not something that parents are necessarily Googling. Oh, I need a therapeutic consultant. What does that even mean? Yeah. So I think it's [00:09:00] important to highlight that it is, it is murky, and just because somebody has that title, sometimes there's some, there's a law, I shouldn't say sometimes.
Often there is confusion of what this person does. What their training and expertise is and whether or not they can help a family. And so that's where like you're, you were just describing a college consultant or what I would refer to as a college consultant, somebody that's helping that college admission application process.
But the reality is some of those people refer to themselves as educational consultants too. So I think the important piece in all of this is being independent. That's always important. But then as a parent. Knowing that sometimes the title doesn't match what it is that the person is doing, but if you are looking for someone to help you, then sometimes even just asking those questions, do you refer to yourself as an educational consultant?
What does that even mean? Um, what work do you do? Who is your ideal client? Those are the questions that I'm asking. So it's not [00:10:00] necessarily. You know, like, oh, I'm going to Google, or, or you know, asking the HopeStream community what, what consultant do you wanna work with or you think I work with or should work with?
The question is, who is the person that's best for you based on their expertise and who it is that they work
Brenda: with? Yeah. And when you say independent, talk about that a little bit more. What does that mean?
Joanna: So there is the IECA organization, so the Independent Educational Consulting Association. Uh, which was designed to set standards, and I think Therapeutic Consulting Association does the same thing.
We're essentially asking folks to be able to acknowledge that they are untethered to any program. Let's say you go to Google and you're typing in like, you know, treatment placement consultant or something like that. You might get a Google search for somebody that has that title, but they actually work for a behavioral health conglomerate in their [00:11:00] job, as they describe is, I totally wanna help you.
I'm objective, I'm independent. The reality is the programs that they're referring you to are a part of the organization that they work for. So when we're, when I'm talking about independent, I'm saying I am completely unattached to any program or any organization, and I am on a complete. Completely objective party in this process.
Brenda: Right. Okay. That makes sense. Because I do know that there's been a huge consolidation of programs by private equity firms. However, I didn't know that maybe those programs would have their own quote unquote educational consultants. And then the other thing that I think you kind of mentioned but didn't outright is to say that there's no financial.
Tie between you and any program. So if you place 10 young people in a program in a year, you're not getting any kind of a kickback. There's a clear boundary there. And is that just an [00:12:00] ethical agreement that you guys have? I, I assume it is,
Joanna: yes. Yeah. And that's a part of some of the, the memberships to the TCAs or the IECAs of the world, because we really are trying to.
Make it so that we are honest and transparent, and our objective when working with a family is not to fill our pockets because of these collaborations or partnerships that we have with programs, but rather it is client centered, client driven, because the only objective or interests that we have in mind as professionals is to make sure that our client is connected to the right program.
When I'm encouraging parents to interview programs, I am asking them to ask those hard questions. Do you do patient brokering? Let's just call it what it is, right? Like are you shady? Yeah. Especially when we're talking about substance use as it pertains to what's gonna be the drive for treatment. I think that's more important for me to bring up to the family in the moment because the addiction treatment [00:13:00] space is known.
For a lot of this backdoor dealing with referrals, and it's just really important to make sure that regardless of whether or not they hire me, I want parents to be thinking about. That's a question you need to be asking the professionals or the programs that you're connecting to. I
Brenda: think there's just a lack of understanding in general from a parent's perspective on.
Kind of the depth of knowledge and research and investment that consultants make in your business and in what you do. Because there's a perception of like, well, Google's pretty good, and so why don't I just open up a spreadsheet and start, you know, going through all the different programs, which is absolutely an option, but.
Tell us what it is that is different about what you do, so how you're approaching it, the, the, the work that you're putting into a placement when you're working with a family.
Joanna: Well, first I do wanna acknowledge [00:14:00] that I. As a representative of a of a family, I'm really clear in saying you are very emotionally driven right now, and that's what my job is.
First and foremost, it's to be completely emotionally detached from where it is that your child needs to go when they need to go. My job is to really be kind of that collector of information to make sure that I'm making referrals for the best fit in terms of treatment, which we're talking about.
Location, level of care, therapist match, if that's what's necessary, based on, again, clinical needs, budget, like you name it. Like there's a lot of things that I'm trying to take into consideration and sometimes when a family is really, they're in the trenches right now with their child, I. Certainly some parents are able to compartmentalize, okay, I'm just gonna shut that off right now and be able to objectively do research and, and take time and, and make these calls and potentially even visit these programs.[00:15:00]
That's great. The reality of being able to do that to level of research in the time that you need it while you're dealing with kind of this emotional crisis, it's just, it's hard. So for me, when I'm explaining to parents. Yes, consultants cost money, but that fee is a convenience so that you don't have to do the extent of that work.
And the work for me is, I mean, I'm traveling a full week, at least every month, where I'm touring programs because I only work with young adults. Those are the programs that I'm touring. And then from there, I've got a database where it's being updated multiple times a day. I'm doing case consults with other consultants on a monthly basis, twice a week, you know, in real time if I've got a situation.
So it's not just, okay, I tour a program once and I'm good to go. It is like I can consistently get in touch with other people who [00:16:00] might currently have a client or recently referred or has recently toured, uh, you know, sooner than I have. And so. Um, there's just a lot of real time data. Again, from an objective perspective with a clinical lens that is being shared to me.
Then, then kind of that is synthesized into what is it that my client needs? All the, while the family is able to deal with their family dynamic and not work on, oh, now I have to research and make these calls and do all these things.
Brenda: Yeah, it's a lot and I, I think the value of having somebody who's not emotionally.
Attached to the child, to what's going on in the home. All of that is so valuable because that is just overwhelming and, and it is easy to start to make decisions like, well, I heard so-and-so sent their kid to this place and they had a really great experience. And I know that that is not a guarantee that that's gonna be a good experience for your child.
'cause it could be, you know, it's apples and [00:17:00] oranges 'cause no two kids are the same. So what do you know that we don't know, um, that we can't get from Google, that we can't get from talking to other parents? Because I imagine that you are at such a different level of knowledge in these programs 'cause you're walking through.
These, if it's like a sober living, you're in the home, you're in the bedrooms, you're in the kitchen. But what are some of those things that we might not even think about that you know,
Joanna: you know, honestly, some of the first things that come to mind are just like knowing where to find information on programs that is not necessarily going to be something that's on on Google.
So I'm just gonna go there. If there's a recent death in a program, that information is not going to be widely shared if it's shared at all. And so that is a concern to me because programs aren't going to advertise that necessarily to a program or to a parent, especially if they're in communication about potentially [00:18:00] having their child enroll.
So for me, if that's a, a major red flag in terms of programmatic structure, safety, staff turnover, how that has completely disrupted the milieu, if that's really a bad fit for my client, like, or if they're indifferent about something like that, I'm taking all of that into consideration. 'cause that's stuff that parents will never have a pulse on unless it's pretty far down the road or unless there's some sort of legal information tied to it.
I mean it's, it's unfortunate, but that's one of the biggest things. I think there's also a lot of just understanding kind of the makeup of the shifts in community, so it's not just a referral. I think you kind of, you just mentioned it, Hey, you know, my friend's kid went to this program and it, it was awesome for them.
Like you said, it's kind of apples and oranges. Sometimes families get lucky and the experience is just as transformative for their child, [00:19:00] but it's. It's not about staff changes. Oftentimes, to me, again, it's the shift in the community that's always important to be looking at, and sometimes parents just don't know what to ask for.
I think the other thing that I'm thinking about too is, you know, there are the, the what we have done in terms of putting effort into our websites, being really flashy and inviting and writing all of the the right things, or including all of the things that are really. Important for parents to see and think or or want.
Like, yes, this is the perfect program. Knowing whether or not, you know, does, does that actually match? Is that truly how it translates? So if I haven't toured, I'm immediately asking other program people or other consultants around the US if nobody else is toured, who's nearby, who can get out there quickly.
So that's the kind of stuff where it's just like there's. There's a [00:20:00] wide net where it's not like I'm the end all be all in terms of information that parents can't access. It's about the network of professionals that are often clinically trained, looking at or kind of touring programs with a fine tooth comb, making sure that we really are only referring to places that are safe.
Trauma informed in their care and actually are doing the work that they say that they're doing. Yeah. Which it feels like the more I tour, the less I refer because there, there are a lot of places that like, man, your website looked awesome and you all are doing crappy work.
Brenda: It reminds me of when you are looking like for an Airbnb and you see this place looks amazing, and then you show up and you're like, wait a minute, this isn't the same
Joanna: place that I saw online.[00:21:00]
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It's a living, breathing organism, a program. It's not like. When you go to McDonald's, it's always going to be the same every single time. It is really dynamic and changing based on who's there and what staff is there and what group of kids just came in. And so that's super important stuff to know because you can't, you just don't know that.
And I think it's also important for people to know. And you kind of mentioned this, is that you are not an island on your own. You and I know because I've seen all of you at conferences, [00:23:00] you all all know each other and you're talking to each other. So like you said, if you haven't been at a program like Feet on the Ground in the home.
You're gonna talk to one of your colleagues who has, and I think that's important to know that you're, you're, um, very well connected with other consultants. So if there is a case where maybe you haven't been to a program recently and you're just a little uncomfortable about making that referral, you've got probably 10 consultants that you could reach out to and say, Hey, when's the last time you were at this?
Inside the walls of
Joanna: this program. And as you were talking, I was even just thinking about, you know, at the, at the end of the day, working with a consultant or without, there's still no guarantees for anything, right? So like if anybody's promising you anything, consultants, programs run away because that's a concern.
But more importantly, I think what, what I'm just kind of sitting with as I'm talking, it's like there, there are no guarantees and I. The other aspect to our [00:24:00] job that I think parents don't think about is it's not just about on the front end researching, presenting programs. It's actually, I think the, the true benefit of having a consultant is that once your child gets to the program, that they're going to, you have an advocate.
Because if the program is all of a sudden not showing up how they need to, they're not communicating. There's some like bumps in the road. We are there to help the parent or parents normalize the experience or get the program to work with the family to make changes, to, to take ownership where ownership is necessary.
I mean, like there you just have a guide who continues to be on the periphery because again, we're not, we're not a part of the program, but we get to be the one who continues to kind of see that 10,000 foot view of. Where were you before? Where are we now and what needs to adjust or, or need additional support, but also we're still focusing on the future.
What direction are we [00:25:00] headed in? Our job is not to steer it a certain way, but just make sure that we aren't. We are missing potential barriers or anything that just in the future that could be an issue?
Brenda: It's a really good point because I know, um, a mom whose daughter was in a program, an echoing therapy program, was a big part of what they promoted and her daughter called one day and said, mom, all the horses are gone.
And it's like, wait, what? What do you mean all the horses are gone? Yeah. She said All the horses are gone. So she hopped on the phone with her consultant and you know, that I think is a kind of situation that people don't think about is. Stuff does happen. Like your child might be in this program for six months or a year.
Stuff is gonna happen and it is good to have, uh, an advocate because you don't wanna have to play good cop, bad cop as the parent. You wanna have somebody there who is watching out. Or knows, oh yeah, they do that every [00:26:00] year. The horses are gonna be gone for two days and then they're gonna be back, whatever.
I know sometimes people will say, oh, um, well I really love this program, but I also know just from personal experience that the therapist in that program is often a really big part of a decision. And I know like with, with my son, our consultant really wanted him to have this particular therapist. And if that therapist hadn't been available in that program, may have made a different placement based on a different one.
So talk to us a little bit about what is the dynamics between program and therapist.
Joanna: Yeah, I think there's, there is a lot of pressure placed on that level of matchmaking, and I do think that from the com consultant perspective, when you know. A lot of therapists, I mean, everybody has to cut their teeth somewhere.
So I wanna be really clear in saying sometimes there is a good match when it's actually the program and the community [00:27:00] have to, that is what's driving the recommendation, and the consultant is having a conversation with the clinical director saying, listen, I'm actually open to exploring who you think, who you think as the clinical director who needs.
You know, who, who has space on their caseload or could benefit from this relationship with this client. Now, I, I say all of that too, and if it's like this is somebody who is, you know, has extreme treatment history or, uh, has the need for a very particular or specific clinical training, yes, that is absolutely what I'm looking for.
It's not any therapist. You just, you know, like you work with whoever is available. There's a lot that goes into it, but it really is dependent on what the client needs for me. And it's funny because I literally just had this conversation with a parent this morning where they said it was really important for us to work [00:28:00] with, you know, insert name of therapist at this residential program.
So now that we're starting to look at transitionals, you know, like what comes next after a residential program. Are we gonna be focused on, are we focusing on the therapist again as that kind of focal point for what's necessary? And my response again for that specific client was, in this case, what's more important is the community for the young adult.
Um, so I really think to answer that in a roundabout way, it just depends. I do think it's, it's more common to see that. In the residential space, like this is the first point of contact in their clinical journey. This is going to make or break the ambivalence towards sobriety and recovery. Right. You know, so it really just depends on how that client is showing up, what needs they have, and then whether or not the program is.
Also [00:29:00] just like from a milieu perspective like that, that will do the work.
Brenda: I'm kind of on a more. Practical level, like how do you keep track of all of this? Is there like software and I'm, I'm kind of like a nerdy data person, software and I, and I'm thinking of all the programs and all the specialties and like there's this crazy matrix and then you're dealing with timeframes like, well, this kid needs to go there on Monday, but is there a bed open on Monday?
Like, how in the world pull back the curtain? How does this all work? Yeah.
Joanna: So there are a lot of, I shouldn't say a lot, there are a couple databases that exist out there that people use, and some of them were, I would say 99% of them were designed for programs or just data management in a like HIPAA compliance space for, for programs.
And so kind of consultants making it, like just making it work [00:30:00] for them. Now, there is a consultant. Who is partnered with a, a tech guru, you know, like a kind of a coder who went ahead and actually created a database designed by consultants for consultants. So that is for the last three years I've been using that.
And there is a program like login side of it. So if programs. Are on top of things, they're logging in and able to update the census regularly. What, what I'm seeing, which is just like, you know, everybody's kind of juggling all their things. For me as a consultant, I'm taking full advantage of this on my end, where I can actually track where are my clients?
How many, how many clients have I referred to, you know, program X versus program Y. How many have I had over the years at program X versus program Y? But also looking at who's the point of contact right now, because that also changes not just therapists, but admissions point of contacts. I think what's most [00:31:00] important is that there's no way to actually keep, like in real time track of the census for every program.
I think that's where the relationships exist between programs and admissions point of contact where I just can quickly send a text. Hey, do you have a bed available? If the answer is yes, then I'm hopping on a quick phone call. Okay. Let me talk to you about my client. I wanna hear about how the community is, I'm thinking about this particular therapist.
Do they have availability or what are you thinking in terms of, you know, what, what therapist do you have in mind? What's going on? Anything I need to know about recently? Like is there a lot of friction or tension in the community? Any significant changes? You know, I'm asking again outright, is there anything that I need to know about skeletons in the closet since the last time I toured, and then I'm reaching out to consultants who's had a client at this particular program, is, here's what I'm hearing about the milieu right now.
Are you having that same experience or is there anything I need to know about here perspective [00:32:00] wise? I mean, so a lot of it's like in real time we've kind of honed in on this way of. Deciding quite quickly what could be a match worthy of exploring, and then it transitions for me to, how do I help coach and guide the parents through their own interview process of narrowing down what places might be best for them to decide.
And then the next step beyond that, assuming again, everybody that I work with is young adults. I'm trying to involve them in the process. So I'm trying to make sure that the young adult is actually the one who's ultimately doing the research and the vetting of options in making that final decision. And it's pretty rare, and I know that every, obviously, every client is a very different situation.
Um, but whether or not you need an interventionist, whether or not a parent just needs to make an executive decision of this is the residential program that we have selected and we have to get our loved one there because their [00:33:00] actions. Or not allowing them to be involved in the process right now. And that's even for somebody over the age of 18 like you are, you can't make that decision right now.
And, and we're concerned about your life, so we gotta make that executive decision for you.
Brenda: The other thing that I think, uh, people don't know and, and it makes sense as you're talking about how much work goes into this, is there are programs that will not take a young person if they're not coming through a consultant because they wanna make sure that that.
Client is a fit for them. They don't wanna bring somebody into their program that's gonna wreck havoc in their milieu, right, of in their community to say, oh my gosh, this person is not a good fit. What are some questions that a parent might not think to ask you when they're making this decision of whether or not to work with somebody?
Joanna: Going back to that conversation of just like making sure that we're transparent about any dual [00:34:00] relationships. Um, another question that I'm asking sometimes or encouraging parents to ask is just, you know, ask me about how I even got into this space. Yeah. Because I think having knowledge and understanding and history, and that also just speaks to the expertise of who it is that we work with or education or our employment history because.
If you aren't hearing from me, talk about that light bulb moment of this is why I'm doing this work. Right? If you're not understanding the truly the values where I land both personally and professionally, then sometimes we, we are disconnected from this person that you are essentially hiring to help you, but you wanna feel connected to them.
And if there feels like there's a barrier or just like a, a discomfort in talking about kind of their personal life. Like sometimes I'll have families, they'll say, like, you and I heard you were sick last week. Are you okay? Like, I wanna have that [00:35:00] level, but sometimes that only comes, or we can only get to that place if you're even just asking, like, how did you get to be a consultant in the first place?
What, what was the, what was the drive? How did it happen? Even just asking, you know, like, what is your expertise? What is your training? Who is your typical client? And then going back to the database, I have families that will say, and I can, I can look at this in real time, which I just like, I love data. So I geek out and they're like, well, how many clients are you working with right now that are X Age?
Right? How many are 20 years old? And I can look right now, and I can tell you I have three clients that are 20 years old. How many of your clients right now are in a residential level of care? Oh, I can tell you on my caseload right now, I only have X amount. I also think it's important to make sure that parents ask how many clients are you referring to wilderness therapy programs, and how frequently do you have clients in those programs?
Because, and what I'm [00:36:00] getting at is I think there's also this misconception where a lot of parents think that all consultants. Automatically refer their clients to a wilderness program from the jump. And I do think that that exists for some consultants for sure. It's kind of a almost, um, like a routine.
It's just easy, right? Like I know what the program's going to do. I know what the family programming's gonna look like. I know that my client's gonna be safe, they're gonna be physically active. We're probably gonna pull in psych testing, and then we've got the opportunity and environment for sobriety.
The question you're really asking is, are you paying attention to the clients that are showing up and treating everybody like an individualized case, or are you automatically going the same route like every client that needs residential goes to this particular type of program? And then from there, do they go here?
So that's where some of those questions, even like. How many clients are on your caseload, how [00:37:00] many of them are in wilderness programs? Like that kind of stuff is just helpful to us. Um, I
Brenda: have so many questions. Um, another one is that just cropped up is are you advising based on a family's insurance? So do you, is that one of the filters that you put your decisions through?
Because I know that's a huge, like you could have a consultant I think with
Joanna: insurance. I know. So I will refer, there's a couple things that I'll actually do. I will run a verification of benefits. Through an, uh, an actual insurance advocacy company. So then that way I can tell parents untethered to any program.
Here's what we're actually looking at for in-network and out-of-Network benefits, I'm pretty candid and when parents come to me and say, we can only afford what's in-network with our insurance, then I say, I'm probably not gonna be the best person to work with you. What you need to do is just go to your insurance website and filter what's in-network and [00:38:00] then hopefully that works.
Sometimes parents will have enough rapport with me where they'll just come back and say, Joanna, will you just tell us are these places shady? Or like, is it even worth pursuing? I'm not saying this to everybody, so please don't call me and ask all, don't call Joanna all this program. So I'm like, setting don't, I'm setting myself up.
I am too affault, too honest and direct even to people that I am just meeting for the first time. But I think it comes from a place of like, I wanna make sure that regardless of whether or not I'm working with your family. Like you're not being misled, which is a big part of how going with the what's in network can get a little bit, uh, disheartening or disappointing.
But when it comes to billing out of network benefits, I see a lot more programs that are able to do that. I also see a lot more programs that are separating their clinical. From the actual program itself or like the residence itself in that way as an a separate LLC, it truly can be [00:39:00] licensed and then work directly with your insurance.
So when a family's looking at a program, even like a young adult transition program, now they could say, Hey, I'm actually gonna, instead of it being $14,000 a month, which is a lot of money, it's gonna cost $7,000 because insurance is being billed and, and the program is willing to work with the family and, and.
Again, $7,000 is still a lot of money, but if we're able to lean on our insurance to cover the clinical cost, it makes a difference. So that's where a lot of those conversations that I have with families. And then last thing to circle back, if the program is not actually billing insurance directly, I'm still connecting the families that I'm working with, with those insurance advocates because similar to a consultant.
They have no goal in, in filling a pocket of a program. Really, their work is, I wanna help the family get properly compensated in making sure that that, that the insurance plan [00:40:00] is actually being used the way it needs to be. And if the insurance is in the wrong for saying, Nope, we're not covering that, but yet this insurance advocacy company could say, well, technically you do need to cover it.
And this family's already paid out of pocket for it. So they can be the ones that can continue to fight denials and do all that reporting. So it takes the wait. And stress off the family of trying to fight insurance, which is a whole other industry that makes your head wanna explode. Trying to understand.
Yeah.
Brenda: Don't even get me started. I actually have an episode coming up. Um, I don't know what it's gonna be out with, uh, with an attorney who specializes in, in insurance denials for wilderness and residential treatment, which was such an enlightening conversation. Um, but yes, this is why you need a team so that you're not trying to.
Do all of these things at once. Uh, also had a question about what is the key information that you need from the family, [00:41:00] either from like medical records, psychological evaluation, school, police, like what should a family have in a binder? I guess a binder is kinda old school, but in a Google folder for you.
Like what is most helpful for you in order to make, uh, you know, the most informed placement?
Joanna: Any of that, if you have, it needs to be shared. Um, and I think every consultant is different in how they do it, but I, I have my own parent intake form. So in addition to them just sharing whatever kind of, uh, attachments or, or like you're saying, discharge summary, site testing, any of that that they have, I'm also just asking from a parent perspective.
What were some issues? I'm asking really directly is there any concern with specific addictions, legal history? Do you have a family attorney? So when a parent is filling that out and I get that information, I'm reading through it line by line very carefully, making sure that I'm not missing anything. I think [00:42:00] the the biggest concerns that I have is when a family withholds information, it doesn't matter what it is.
Uh, and usually it's out of fear. Uh, there's, there's a cultural implication to this. I think it's geographically, it depends on where the family is. That's more likely where I have to dig, which I don't like having to dig. I mean, again, if you're hiring somebody to help you, you gotta make sure they have all the information.
It's not meant to be a judgment. It's truly, I just can't, I can't make informed recommendations if I'm missing some pretty profound information.
Brenda: Absolutely. Yeah. This is, you know, this is like hiring your divorce attorney. Like you gotta spill it all, like it all needs to come out. Yes. And even testing, I, I remember our consultant asking for testing that had been done when my son was in third grade.
And you know, he was 16 when we were going through this. And it would never even occurred to me to provide that testing. 'cause I was like, well how relevant is that gonna be? But it was so, yeah. [00:43:00] Just make sure, you know, I, I just want families to know that they need to gather all of that and keep track of it so that, you know, you can work with that.
I'm just gonna like rapid fire questions at
you.
Joanna: I'm so
Brenda: sorry, but I have so many questions. Um, what is like a typical turnaround time? So if I engaged with you and I have a kiddo who's. You know, pretty high-risk, like doing really crazy stuff and we're looking at getting something done. Are we talking days?
Are we talking weeks, months? Like what does that look like from a turnaround time to get some recommendations?
Joanna: I. Yeah, when it's, when it's a crisis, I think it's a couple days, but it really depends on how prompt the family is in filling out parent intake for signing papers, sending all the information.
If the young adult, again, that's my perspective is, is involved and they're able to sign a release for me to be able to speak with who their people are, if they have a therapist, psychiatrist, etc. I'm, I am on [00:44:00] it and I can quickly. As soon as I'm getting that information just based on experience, right, presenting issues, budget, geography, expectations, all of that, I can, I can already start to formulate a list of what potential places might I be thinking about.
Um, and then again, because I have a direct line of communication, quite quickly, reaching out to these people. Then I can also find out very fast, do they have space? What's the change in the milieu? You know, like anything I need to know about, to then assess at that point. Is this place something that I wanna actually put on the list to then get in front of the parents?
I think when it comes to a sense of urgency with substance abuse, sometimes it's a, we gotta get you to detox quick. Mm-Hmm. But sometimes that, that buys a a little bit of time. Or more importantly, if you are quick to picking what residential program you want, then we're looking at, well, what's the recommended detox locally that they use?
But also similar thing with families, do they have space? [00:45:00] Is it a, you know, an ethical place? Are there gonna be any issues that we're concerned about? So, um, I think for, for, for most consultants, they can say that they can turn things around quite quickly if it's a non-urgent situation and the young adult is involved in the process.
I think I'm at the pace of where the family is. So sometimes when I'm dealing with more of a like struggling to launch type situation, I mean it could be months, but a lot of that is because it's building rapport, getting parents connected to resources where they can start to make changes and sharing information or expectations, and kind of setting their own timeline for their young adults and then eventually getting them out of the house.
So it just depends.
Brenda: Yeah. No, that's helpful. I think it's good just to have a little bit of like, uh, guidance on that. What about if you have already sent your child to treatment? Maybe, maybe they went to wilderness and then they went to residential program and they're home and they're bombing out. I. Uh, is it too late to hire a consultant or like do you, do you [00:46:00] work just with like, we're fresh into this process, or could you, could somebody bring a consultant in after, you know, multiple placements have already happened?
Joanna: You can bring a consultant in at any point. I selfishly prefer to be involved on the front end, and then that way I can really help kind of curate the entire treatment path. Whereas sometimes it's just a little bit more challenging, but it's not out of the scope of the work that we can do, depending on their treatment experience.
Hey, was that place a fit? Was that a therapist, a match? Did the client actually get what they needed outta this program? Is the family really irritated because it's an equine program and there's no horse? You know, like that's the kind of stuff that it's like now I am doing a lot of. You know, legwork to basically rebuild and establish trust and rapport and direction for families that may now feel a little bit jaded.
Yeah. Uh, or frustrated or whatever the process may be. But, um, I. Yeah, I think it, any consultant will tell you it doesn't [00:47:00] matter what, where they are in the process that they might be able to
Brenda: step in. Okay. And then I did promise that we were gonna cover just a couple of your thoughts for a family who absolutely, there is no financial way that they can bring in a consultant.
Um, what absolutely, like, hands down, must do this or must not do that. Maybe two or three tips just to get them started.
Joanna: If you can assume that every admissions person that you're speaking with for any program is going to sell you, or I mean, they are going to try to sell ice to an Eskimo type situation, right?
They are going to convince you that, that your child is perfect for their program. That the there is no wrong, the best advice that I can give, and I do the same thing for the families that I work with. Ask to be able to speak with other parents. Great. You say that this program's a fantastic fit. Before we finalize any details, can you please share some parent referrals?
And then that way we can just have an opportunity to connect with somebody else. If the program says, sorry, we don't do [00:48:00] that, I would cringe. Uh, I am cringing. Because then that means that they're potentially might be something that they're hiding, whereas other programs that are quick to say, yeah, absolutely happy to share some referrals and then that way.
Obviously those families are probably going to have had a good experience with that treatment program. However, they're going to be honest. So if there were bumps in the road, if there were hiccups, if there were, you know, issues with communication, or if the detox actually was the shady park, but as soon as they got to the residential treatment program, it worked well.
That's information that you would not be gleaning from the admissions point of contact. So please ask to speak with other parents. I think this, if you have an opportunity to drive to the place, especially if you're looking at a place locally, do check it out. This is such an investment for your child, and if you are looking for a place and it has to be, you know, free or reduced, that those programs can [00:49:00] actually be fantastic too.
But you just wanna make sure that you've got eyes on, you know, is the place feeling really run down? Does it feel like staff are punitive with clients? Like, are, you know, do do clients look worried? You know, like, be really wary and pay attention and be observant. Um, and the last thing that I would say too is, is still just ask tons of questions.
You know, what, what can you expect? Um, if anybody is promising you a bill of goods? Run the other way. That's, that's all I got. Yeah.
Brenda: Promises are, um, something that don't really exist in this world. There's just no, there's no way you can guarantee anything. So. Well, this has been so good. I, I'll, I do have more questions, but we'll save it for a 2.0.
Um, is there, before we wrap up though, is there a misperception. That you hear all the time that you would just for once and for all, like to clear up about working with an ED consultant or [00:50:00] you know, working on your own to place your child
Joanna: in a program. I have said this before and I know other consultants hate me.
I don't think every family needs a consultant. There are certainly some families that are just like, you have it and you're okay. I think the benefit to having the consultant is what we discussed earlier. You know, you're in a, a, a highly emotional and, you know, heightened emotional state, and it's just helpful to have somebody that is not emotionally connected to the outcome of the, the, the situation for your child.
The other thing I would throw out there too, just quickly is not every consultant is the same. Gosh, I just wish everybody understood that. Like, but people are like, I didn't realize that you only worked with young adults. I'm like, yes, this is, this is how it's been the whole time. Not every consultant does everything.
Yeah. Um, and I think that the same thing goes for cost and timeline, like ways that we work. We're not all the same. It's, it is, you know, do your due diligence, do research, figure out who could be [00:51:00] a support for you, and just know that not everybody's the same.
Brenda: Yes. And so when Joanna says she only works with young adults, that's anyone 18 or older.
So because there are different laws and different programs for, you know, different ages, that's a very good distinction to make. And I think that would be a great question to ask when you're. Interviewing a consultant is, do you work with a specific age range or are you working end-to-end? Like, is this person placing 12 year olds and 23 year olds?
That, that would be a good question to ask. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just I think good to know. Yeah. What do you love most about what you do?
Joanna: Just one thing. No. Um, I honestly, I would say that the, the thing that I love the most is truly. Seeing the change within the parents and the young adult, you know, with time in the moment, I usually show up in a point of, you know, tension, chaos, like uncertainty, ambiguity, all of it.
And there is a lot of [00:52:00] hope, there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of, you know, all of it. It's just out there. So to be able to walk alongside the family as they are going through this journey, to literally hold their hand and say it's gonna, we're we're gonna, we're gonna go through this. There are going to be points where it is uncomfortable and it's gonna be okay.
Um, and being able to have a relationship directly with the young adults so they know who I am. I'm not just this figurative person. That's what I love the most every day. It's families that I get to work with for a short amount of time. And I love it because if they feel like they've hired me to help, then I am all in to help this
Brenda: family.
Love it. Sounds really good. Well, thank you for helping us really kind of get, you know, deep into what the nitty gritty is. And I think you're gonna really have helped a lot of families make that decision to say, yeah, you know, this does seem like something we need to do, or. You know, I think, I think we've got it.
So, [00:53:00] um, really, really helpful. Thank you for being honest and just laying it out there for us.
Joanna: Anytime, Brenda.
Brenda: Okay, my friend. That is it for today. Remember, you can find all the guest information and resources we talked about in the show notes, and those are at brendazane.com forward slash podcast. We also have some playlists there that we created for you, like the top 10 episodes, coaching episodes, recovery stories, all the good stuff.
And if you haven't already, you may wanna download a free ebook I wrote called Hindsight. Three things I Wish I Knew When My Son Was Misusing Drugs. It'll give you some insight as to why your child might be doing what they are. And importantly, it gives you tips on how to cope and how to be more healthy through the rough times.
I. You can download that free from brendazane.com Forward slash hindsight. Thank you so much for listening. [00:54:00] Stay strong and be very, very good to yourself, and I will meet you right back here next week.